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Fire sale in Chicago?


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#121 WingNut 25

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 11:48 PM

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the Hawks are dead in the water and will be forced to trade great/strong players for nothing. Does a player's cap hit count if he clears waivers and goes to the minors? I suspect that will happen with Huet. I think Eager, Burish and Madden are as good as gone (UFA's). The problem for them will be how to get Hjalmarsson locked up (RFA). Teams are gonna look long and hard at that kid. Ladd is also an RFA and you have to think he's gone. Byfuglien and Brouwer are RFA the season after. This team will still be a contender but they are going to come back to the pack a little bit with the loss of some depth. I can't imagine a team helping them by taking Huet or Campbell, especially at those dollars.

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#122 Shaman

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:13 AM

Boy, you guys sure do like talking about the Blackhawks.

I'll admit though, it's interesting hearing you guys try to talk yourself into thinking that the Blackhawks will suck this year.

A point nobody is bringing up - the Hawks are going to absolutely load up their system in the returns they get for these guys. The guys they're going to be trading had very good value right now.

Really what we're looking at next year for the Hawks is a team that is still part of a group of about 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a Cup. The stars are more important than the depth, and that's all the Hawks are losing.... depth. Will they even lose one of their top 10 players this offseason?

Hawks best 10 players, in no specific order

Hossa
Toews
Seabrook
Keith
Hjalmarsson
Campbell
Kane
Sharp
Bolland
Niemi

Most likely, they won't lose any of those guys. Maybe Bolland. So yeah, the Hawks will be losing depth more than anything else. Will this offseason hurt them? Absolutely. But to act like they aren't going to be a Cup contender next season seems pretty silly to me.

What will happen is they'll spend the next couple years as one of 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a cup, then will be in great shape again after that. Their system is going to be loaded, and the money situation will be better.

But hey, if you guys want to say things like "the hits keep on coming", go right ahead. I'm sure the Stanley Cup championship this year was worth sitting through a horrrrrible 100-105 point season next year.


First, since every other GM in the NHL knows how bad the Blackhawks need to dump salary they won't be getting anywhere near what the players they trade are nearly worth. Second, what people aren't looking at is even if there are some huge trades this is a cap world and other gms will send some cap back chicagos way. Third ask Tampa and Anaheim what one great line, one good line, one good defensive unit and a good goalie gets you. I promise you its not that far... if your team is a 1.5 line team every team will throw their shut down guys at them and they won't be scoring many goals.

Edited by Shaman464, 12 June 2010 - 12:13 AM.

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#123 Yzerman191

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:30 AM

Boy, you guys sure do like talking about the Blackhawks.

I'll admit though, it's interesting hearing you guys try to talk yourself into thinking that the Blackhawks will suck this year.

A point nobody is bringing up - the Hawks are going to absolutely load up their system in the returns they get for these guys. The guys they're going to be trading had very good value right now.

Really what we're looking at next year for the Hawks is a team that is still part of a group of about 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a Cup. The stars are more important than the depth, and that's all the Hawks are losing.... depth. Will they even lose one of their top 10 players this offseason?

Hawks best 10 players, in no specific order

Hossa
Toews
Seabrook
Keith
Hjalmarsson
Campbell
Kane
Sharp
Bolland
Niemi

Most likely, they won't lose any of those guys. Maybe Bolland. So yeah, the Hawks will be losing depth more than anything else. Will this offseason hurt them? Absolutely. But to act like they aren't going to be a Cup contender next season seems pretty silly to me.

What will happen is they'll spend the next couple years as one of 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a cup, then will be in great shape again after that. Their system is going to be loaded, and the money situation will be better.

But hey, if you guys want to say things like "the hits keep on coming", go right ahead. I'm sure the Stanley Cup championship this year was worth sitting through a horrrrrible 100-105 point season next year.

Adding Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and Bolland puts the 'Hawks right around 45 million already. That's without considering Huet's disgusting contract, nor raises for Niemi and Hjalmarsson. Oh, and the other 12-14 roster players.

I think the truth lies somewhere between what the 'Hawks fans want to believe and what the 'Wings fans want to believe. Will the 'Blackhawks chances nosedive after this off-season? Nope, they'll still be contenders and will give us a run for our money for the division title. However, their team certainly won't be anything like what it was this year.

I think the Blackhawks will likely take a long hard look at who they consider the core of the team to be, namely Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Keith, and Niemi. Many of the rest of the players, if the offer was right, will likely be available to other teams.

#124 jeff48109

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:52 AM

look at the Penguins. They won and people in the media threw the dynasty word around. Crosby and Malkin's huge contracts kicked in and they had to let go of 'role' players like Gill and Scuderi. They are still a good team but not as good as the team that won the Cup, and i think if they were in the west they would have barely made the playoffs. Its going to be the same with the Hawks. They won't tank, but they won't be the most stacked team in the league. in fact, chicago has worse contracts than the pens

Its funny how many (not on this board though lol) now think Quenneville is a good coach with this win. The truth is, he was given the keys to such a stacked and loaded team that it would have been harder not to win the Cup this year.

Such stacked teams don't come along often. In the salary cap world, this only happens when you have superstars that are still on their entry level contracts.

Edited by jeff48109, 12 June 2010 - 12:53 AM.


#125 Lidstromboli

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:19 AM

i don't see how Quenneville isn't a "good coach"..

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#126 Nev

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:33 AM

Boy, you guys sure do like talking about the Blackhawks.

I'll admit though, it's interesting hearing you guys try to talk yourself into thinking that the Blackhawks will suck this year.

A point nobody is bringing up - the Hawks are going to absolutely load up their system in the returns they get for these guys. The guys they're going to be trading had very good value right now.

Really what we're looking at next year for the Hawks is a team that is still part of a group of about 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a Cup. The stars are more important than the depth, and that's all the Hawks are losing.... depth. Will they even lose one of their top 10 players this offseason?

Hawks best 10 players, in no specific order

Hossa
Toews
Seabrook
Keith
Hjalmarsson
Campbell
Kane
Sharp
Bolland
Niemi

Most likely, they won't lose any of those guys. Maybe Bolland. So yeah, the Hawks will be losing depth more than anything else. Will this offseason hurt them? Absolutely. But to act like they aren't going to be a Cup contender next season seems pretty silly to me.

What will happen is they'll spend the next couple years as one of 6-8 teams that has a chance to win a cup, then will be in great shape again after that. Their system is going to be loaded, and the money situation will be better.

But hey, if you guys want to say things like "the hits keep on coming", go right ahead. I'm sure the Stanley Cup championship this year was worth sitting through a horrrrrible 100-105 point season next year.


I don't quite think you realise the depth of your problem - you have just 14 players signed for ~$58M. ie you're right at the cap and 8-9 players short of a roster. Add to that the bonuses due to Toews + Kane and suddenly you're ~$4M OVER the cap and you're STILL 8-9 players short of a roster! You need to waive/trade Huet just to get back beneath the cap (and now you're 9-10 players short with no goalie).

Forget about re-signing your RFA's for the moment, if every player you sign from now on is on Minimum Salary you still need to create another ~$5M in cap room to do that. Obviously Campbell is the albatross hanging round your neck right now, but he has an NTC so you can only waive or buy him out. If you waive him, you're paying a guy $7.1M a season for the next 6 years to play in the minors (and I'm sure the NHLPA will have something to say about that), although you might get lucky and someone might be prepared to pick him up on waivers. Or you can buy him out and have a saving of ~$4.8M, but a cap hit of $2.4M for the next 12 (TWELVE) years, and now you're 10-11 players short of a roster. You're almost enough below the cap to fill out your team with min salary players but you have only 3 defencemen and no goalie.

You listed Hjalmarsson and Niemmi in your core 10, but they are both RFAs earning $0.6M + $0.8M respectively and you have no spare money to re-sign them with the raise they deserve. If you want to keep them the only way to find the money is to trade one of Sharp/Bolland/Versteeg/Butmuffin (and now they need to be replaced too). Can you even afford to offer your RFAs offer sheets? What if no-one else offers them a contract? Now you're left with even more players you can't afford. And good luck keeping Seabrook the year after that.

Look, we all knew this was coming from the second Chicago signed Hossa - everyone on here said the same thing "Chicago better win the cup this year cos they're screwed after that". Congrats, you managed it but you're about to find out what Anaheim, Detroit and Pittsburgh found out about winning the cup - the key is good players on Entry Level Contracts which allow you to fill out your roster with decent players.

Anaheim - Perry + Getzlaf on ELCs
Detroit - Zetterberg, Cleary, Franzen, Filpulla, Hudler, Sammuelsson all earning MUCH less than they are now
Pittsburgh - byebye Scuderi, Gill etc, hello worst set of wingers in the NHL.
Chicago - Toews + Kane on ELCs

Right now its hard to say whether you can do a Detroit and remain a contender, or slip down the Anaheim/Tampa Bay top-heavy garbage chute. As Ken Holland said last year "there's only so many minimum salary guys you want on your team".
"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#127 Lidstrom for life

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 07:18 AM

Of course he doesn't realize the depth of the problem he said they probably won't lose Campbell....are you freaking kidding me? If Chicago keeps the 9 players on that list besides Bolland like he suggests those 9 players alone will total about 43 million in salary (that is assuming 2.5 million deals for Niemi and Hjalmarson) That would mean that with their cap penalties they would have about 11.5 million with which to sign 10 more players just to get them to the minimum roster, realistically they need to sign at least 11 more. And remember that would mean they lose guys like Bolland, Byfleyn, Brouwer, Ladd, Sopel and replace them with 1 million dollar players. If they don't unload Campbell they are epically screwed.

I can only hope that Stan Bowman is thinking along the same lines as this guy.
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#128 Guest_screwdahawks (Guest)

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 08:22 AM

Of course he doesn't realize the depth of the problem he said they probably won't lose Campbell....are you freaking kidding me? If Chicago keeps the 9 players on that list besides Bolland like he suggests those 9 players alone will total about 43 million in salary (that is assuming 2.5 million deals for Niemi and Hjalmarson) That would mean that with their cap penalties they would have about 11.5 million with which to sign 10 more players just to get them to the minimum roster, realistically they need to sign at least 11 more. And remember that would mean they lose guys like Bolland, Byfleyn, Brouwer, Ladd, Sopel and replace them with 1 million dollar players. If they don't unload Campbell they are epically screwed.

I can only hope that Stan Bowman is thinking along the same lines as this guy.


I don't see how they could dump Campbell with that s*** contract, he's not a 7M player now, and there is 7 more years of it. Their best move is to trade Hossa for a first rounder and whatever else they can get then waive Huet. Now they have extra 11M to work with. Sucks to sign a guy and dump him but I don't think Hossa cares where he plays now that he has his cup and the lifetime contract. Loyalty doesn't seem important to him and he sure didn't pull his weight in the playoffs or for that matter his season wasn't all that spectacular.

#129 eva unit zero

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:07 AM

Yes, but aren't these one way contracts? So if nobody wants to pick up their inflated salary, Chicago is still paying these guys there salaries and counting against the cap. They'd have to hope and pray someone picks them up.


FYI: You could be paying a player the league maximum to play in the minors and he wouldn't cost a cent against the team's cap. He would cost his full salary if on a one-way deal, but would not cost a cent against the team's cap. Otherwise the Leino deal would have been moot, because Tollefson had a one-way deal for $600k. Wouldn't have saved enough cap space to bring Franzen back unless TKO went to the minors, now would it?
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#130 dragonballgtz

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:47 AM

Boy, you guys sure do like talking about the Blackhawks.

I'll admit though, it's interesting hearing you guys try to talk yourself into thinking that the Blackhawks will suck this year.


Since a good number already responded to everything else in your post I'll focus on this part.

Most of us here are hockey fans and love to talk about hockey during the off season no matter who or what its about. This "fire sale" thing is big news in the league as of right now and is pretty much the only thing to talk about if you are not a Blackhawks fan. How the 'Hawks decide to deal with this situation can potential have a mass ripple effect on the rest of the League. Other teams getting stronger, maybe the NHLPA not liking how they see some players getting treated (that's very extreme though), again who knows until after the dust has settled.

This is a very interesting topic for an NHL fan.

EDIT: Also I think its funny you said the bold part. There is another thread on these forums that show people chanting "Detroit sucks" when the 'Hawks came home. Not even cheering for their team but booing for another team.

Edited by dragonballgtz, 12 June 2010 - 09:54 AM.


#131 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:55 AM

Since a good number already responded to everything else in your post I'll focus on this part.

Most of us here are hockey fans and love to talk about hockey during the off season no matter who or what its about. This "fire sale" thing is big news in the league as of right now and is pretty much the only thing to talk about if you are not a Blackhawks fan. How the 'Hawks decide to deal with this situation can potential have a mass ripple effect on the rest of the League. Other teams getting stronger, maybe the NHLPA not liking how they see some players getting treated (that's very extreme though), again who knows until after the dust has settled.

This is a very interesting topic for an NHL fan.

Exactly.

The team that won the Cup is completely screwed in terms of the cap. It's interesting to see what kind of wheeling and dealing they'll make to try and preserve the core of the team for next season. It's also interesting because of some of the complexity of the cap. What counts and doesn't, tagging, etc.

There is a pinned thread about this over at hfboards (and it's currently 28 pages long). It's not like we're just some Hawks obsessed Wings fans. Fans around the league are talking about this situation.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 12 June 2010 - 09:57 AM.


#132 Lidstrom for life

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:59 AM

I think its funny that he would comment in a Detroit Red Wings forum and then say its funny that we are talking about the blackhawks...
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#133 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:27 PM

By the way-- turns out that the Hawks have to pay $4,000,000 in bonuses as a result of their victory and every penny will be counted towards their cap next season.

:lol:

Here's the source:

THE GLOBE & MAIL: James Mirtle reports Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews were the only Chicago Blackhawks with bonuses on their contracts this season, but their hitting all their entry level bonuses this season plus Toews getting a $1.3 million bonus for winning the Conn Smythe as playoff MVP added up to approximately $4 million, which will be coming off next season's salary cap. Mirtle points out demoting Cristobal Huet and trading either Kris Versteeg or Dustin Byfuglien would free up about $8.6 million, leaving management with about $5.5 million to "pay four or five forwards, two or three defensemen and get (Antti) Niemi under contract".

SPECTOR'S NOTE: It just keeps getting worse for the Blackhawks' cap space for next season. It's been suggested they might move Brian Campbell, but that's a slim possibility at best, and even then it still might not be enough to prevent them moving another roster player to get the necessary cap space.


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#134 Doc Holliday

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:40 PM

By the way-- turns out that the Hawks have to pay $4,000,000 in bonuses as a result of their victory and every penny will be counted towards their cap next season.

:lol:

Here's the source:


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#135 titanium2

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:45 PM

Their cap situation may be like nothing we've ever seen before but at the end of the day they still won the cup. For that reason alone I find it really hard to point and laugh at anything they do. You have a ton of organizations that don't task as much risks, manage their cap by the book and have no cup on their resume.

My thinking is that a good amount of those organizations now think they would've done the same thing. For whatever reason they just didn't think of it or didn't think it was allowed. Load up on names and talent regardless of the cap, deal with some very serious bureaucratic bulls*** and then ice a team that will still be competitive. Sounds good to me.

Ilitch is a guy who isn't afraid to spend as long as the teams win. He might be a little upset that they beat him to it but I bet he would have loved to have done what Chicago did.

Chicago will get through this and it's not going to screw them over as much as we hope it will.

#136 Doc Holliday

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:47 PM

Their cap situation may be like nothing we've ever seen before but at the end of the day they still won the cup. For that reason alone I find it really hard to point and laugh at anything they do. You have a ton of organizations that don't task as much risks, manage their cap by the book and have no cup on their resume.

My thinking is that a good amount of those organizations now think they would've done the same thing. For whatever reason they just didn't think of it or didn't think it was allowed. Load up on names and talent regardless of the cap, deal with some very serious bureaucratic bulls*** and then ice a team that will still be competitive. Sounds good to me.

Ilitch is a guy who isn't afraid to spend as long as the teams win. He might be a little upset that they beat him to it but I bet he would have loved to have done what Chicago did.

Chicago will get through this and it's not going to screw them over as much as we hope it will.


The signings aren't the problem. It is the amount Tallon paid for a select few players. If that doesn't happen, the Hawks win the cup and don't lose as much as they likely will this offseason.

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#137 jeff48109

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:22 PM

Their cap situation may be like nothing we've ever seen before but at the end of the day they still won the cup. For that reason alone I find it really hard to point and laugh at anything they do. You have a ton of organizations that don't task as much risks, manage their cap by the book and have no cup on their resume.

My thinking is that a good amount of those organizations now think they would've done the same thing. For whatever reason they just didn't think of it or didn't think it was allowed. Load up on names and talent regardless of the cap, deal with some very serious bureaucratic bulls*** and then ice a team that will still be competitive. Sounds good to me.

Ilitch is a guy who isn't afraid to spend as long as the teams win. He might be a little upset that they beat him to it but I bet he would have loved to have done what Chicago did.

Chicago will get through this and it's not going to screw them over as much as we hope it will.


i will think that owners who are willing to spend the money will have no hesitation doing what the hawks did.

i'm laughing mainly at the fools in the media who are throwing the 'dynasty' word around so loosely.

#138 Heaten

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:27 PM

Their cap situation may be like nothing we've ever seen before but at the end of the day they still won the cup. For that reason alone I find it really hard to point and laugh at anything they do. You have a ton of organizations that don't task as much risks, manage their cap by the book and have no cup on their resume.

My thinking is that a good amount of those organizations now think they would've done the same thing. For whatever reason they just didn't think of it or didn't think it was allowed. Load up on names and talent regardless of the cap, deal with some very serious bureaucratic bulls*** and then ice a team that will still be competitive. Sounds good to me.

Ilitch is a guy who isn't afraid to spend as long as the teams win. He might be a little upset that they beat him to it but I bet he would have loved to have done what Chicago did.

Chicago will get through this and it's not going to screw them over as much as we hope it will.


The point is there will be no dynasty in Chicago due to poor management. Yes they won the cup, but had they done it right, they could possibly have been a dynasty team for the next decade or so. As a Red Wings fan, to me, that's more important. Of course they have bragging rights like the 2004 Tampa Bay Lightning did.. but it only lasts for one year. In 2 years nobody is really going to remember the Blackhawks because they won't be contenders. While the Detroit Red Wings will be right in there every year and will always have a legit chance to bringing the cup back home where it belongs.

For that reason, I point and laugh. :lol:

#139 chrisdetroit

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:35 PM

i will think that owners who are willing to spend the money will have no hesitation doing what the hawks did.

i'm laughing mainly at the fools in the media who are throwing the 'dynasty' word around so loosely.



They do it every year. Last year Pittsburgh won the cup and we heard about that dynasty. They lost in the 2nd round...
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#140 titanium2

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:40 PM

In 2 years nobody is really going to remember the Blackhawks because they won't be contenders. While the Detroit Red Wings will be right in there every year and will always have a legit chance to bringing the cup back home where it belongs.

For that reason, I point and laugh. :lol:


Hmm. I know we'd all like to think that but I think this past year proves that a playoff spot isn't a given for the Wings as it used to be, not to mention being a contender.

I don't see how the Hawks won't be contenders actually. They will have Keith and Seabrook and Toews, Kane and Hossa. Seems like that's as much of a contender as you can hope for in this league.





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