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Guest blueadams

The argument for not bringing back Bertuzzi

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Someone mentioned this in another thread, and I thought it deserved its own post - aside from the 02 squad of hall-of-famers, even in the pre-salary cap era, most of our stanley cup championship teams have NOT had a scoring third line. all of these teams have had A) two great scoring lines, B) tough and reliable 3rd and 4th lines, C) great defense, and D) great goaltending.

A) two great scoring lines: check.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen

B) tough and reliable 3rd and 4th lines: the problem here is that we seem set on resigning bertuzzi. but he is not a 3rd or 4th line player. he is a liability defensively and he doesn't hit anyone. he's essentially a poor-man's holmstrom at this point in his career. i think that we should use the rest of our cap space on acquiring a cleary-like player for this role. any ideas?

Cleary-Helm-???

Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves

Draper

(Ritola)

C) great defense: great in skill, but we lack toughness. hopefully the new 6th/7th defenseman brings a little.

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Stuart-Rafalski

Kindl-Ericsson

Lilja/???

(Janik)

D) great goaltending: imo, check.

Howard

Osgood

Edited by blueadams

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Someone mentioned this in another thread, and I thought it deserved its own post - aside from the 02 squad of hall-of-famers, even in the pre-salary cap era, most of our stanley cup championship teams have NOT had a scoring third line. all of these teams have had A) two great scoring lines, B) tough and reliable 3rd and 4th lines, C) great defense, and D) great goaltending.

A) two great scoring lines: check.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen

B) tough and reliable 3rd and 4th lines: the problem here is that we seem set on resigning bertuzzi. but he is not a 3rd or 4th line player. he is a liability defensively and he doesn't hit anyone. he's essentially a poor-man's holmstrom at this point in his career. i think that we should use the rest of our cap space on acquiring a cleary-like player for this role. any ideas?

Cleary-Abdelkader-???

Miller-Helm-Eaves

Draper

(Ritola)

C) great defense: great in skill, but we lack toughness. hopefully the new 6th/7th defenseman brings a little.

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Stuart-Rafalski

Kindl-Ericsson

Lilja/???

(Janik)

D) great goaltending: imo, check.

Howard

Osgood

I dont get all the Bert hate. The guy pretty much ran the team when EVERYONE was injured. He plays decent defense, impossible to know off the puck, and likes to bang bodies every now and again. I love the guy and hope to god he stays, and id be happy if it were for another 2 years. I dont think another "cleary type player" will do much. Cleary was pretty invisible all year last year. I like him, but he didnt play like we are used to seeing him play. the only thing that cleary does better than bert is speed in my opinion.

I say keep Bert and try and get the best bang for whatever buck we have left. I'd love to see afinogenov here, but i dont think we wil have enough to get him, so try and fill the third or fourth line with a cheap free agent somewhere. Keep miller and eaves too in my opinion.

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Too bad they plan on using Bertuzzi with Datsyuk/Zetterberg.

Jim Nill:

I believe that Todd is more comfortable knowing the organization after spending a full season here. He will be given every opportunity to play with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg which should transpire into more points.

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I seem to recall Hudler playing on the third line in 2008, he doesn't exactly fit the bill of tough. I think Bertuzzi is the best player we have a realistic chance of getting in the 1.5 million range so I hope we get him.

shoe and magicaldatsyuk like this

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I dont get all the Bert hate. The guy pretty much ran the team when EVERYONE was injured. He plays decent defense, impossible to know off the puck, and likes to bang bodies every now and again. I love the guy and hope to god he stays, and id be happy if it were for another 2 years. I dont think another "cleary type player" will do much. Cleary was pretty invisible all year last year. I like him, but he didnt play like we are used to seeing him play. the only thing that cleary does better than bert is speed in my opinion.

I say keep Bert and try and get the best bang for whatever buck we have left. I'd love to see afinogenov here, but i dont think we wil have enough to get him, so try and fill the third or fourth line with a cheap free agent somewhere. Keep miller and eaves too in my opinion.

I don't get it either. Everyone is basically giving him the finger for running the team when no one else could due to injuries. I want Bert back and still have not heard a good enough argument to release him.

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I seem to recall Hudler playing on the third line in 2008, he doesn't exactly fit the bill of tough. I think Bertuzzi is the best player we have a realistic chance of getting in the 1.5 million range so I hope we get him.

No, but if you put Bertuzzi and Cleary on his wings then they might score. I guess it depends on what you're looking for. But given the players Detroit will have there could be a fair amount of switches until the right guys fit together and align. Given the $ figure, loyalty and you-know-what-you-get-player that Bert is I don't think Detroit can pass on him.

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I recall a third line of Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson in the 2008 SCF. Granted, we will never be able to get that kind of depth again but I think the addition of Hudler adds more balance to the Red Wings.

The problem in the playoffs was our bottom two lines stunk. Two energy lines doesn't cut it, even when the top six forwards carried the team like they did. We need a third line next season that is an offensive threat. Whether that means going with Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula each centering their own line or Helm developing more of a scoring touch, something has to happen if the Red Wings want to contend for a championship next season. I think Bertuzzi will be back with the Red Wings, but in doing so they almost have to play him with Datsyuk or Zetterberg to make the signing worthwhile. A healthy and productive Cleary will go a long way to bolstering some offense on the third line.

dobbles and Lidstrom for life like this

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No, but if you put Bertuzzi and Cleary on his wings then they might score. I guess it depends on what you're looking for. But given the players Detroit will have there could be a fair amount of switches until the right guys fit together and align. Given the $ figure, loyalty and you-know-what-you-get-player that Bert is I don't think Detroit can pass on him.

Right, I would not mind Hudler on the third line, I was just pointing out that the OP is wrong to suggest that we had a bottom six of all tough players every time we won the cup. I think your third line should have a combination of toughness and skill, you can't rely on just your top 6 for all your scoring. Bertuzzi can play in the top six and that allows us to have either Filpulla or Hudler on the third line to hopefully provide us with more scoring depth.

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I recall a third line of Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson in the 2008 SCF. Granted, we will never be able to get that kind of depth again but I think the addition of Hudler adds more balance to the Red Wings.

That was 2009. The 3rd line in 2008 was Cleary-Draper-Drake and the 4th was Maltby/McCarty-Helm-Hudler.

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Right, I would not mind Hudler on the third line, I was just pointing out that the OP is wrong to suggest that we had a bottom six of all tough players every time we won the cup. I think your third line should have a combination of toughness and skill, you can't rely on just your top 6 for all your scoring. Bertuzzi can play in the top six and that allows us to have either Filpulla or Hudler on the third line to hopefully provide us with more scoring depth.

The logjam on center will mean that one of them will be bumped down to the third. Given that Filppula is the better two-way player it might be him but like I wrote earlier there will be a fair amount of switching around as the season goes. I guess we agree in principle though.

Lidstrom for life likes this

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I recall a third line of Hudler-Filppula-Samuelsson in the 2008 SCF. Granted, we will never be able to get that kind of depth again but I think the addition of Hudler adds more balance to the Red Wings.

The problem in the playoffs was our bottom two lines stunk. Two energy lines doesn't cut it, even when the top six forwards carried the team like they did. We need a third line next season that is an offensive threat. Whether that means going with Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula each centering their own line or Helm developing more of a scoring touch, something has to happen if the Red Wings want to contend for a championship next season. I think Bertuzzi will be back with the Red Wings, but in doing so they almost have to play him with Datsyuk or Zetterberg to make the signing worthwhile. A healthy and productive Cleary will go a long way to bolstering some offense on the third line.

That was the 2009 final, the year we lost.

In 2008 our third and fourth lines were: Drake-Draper-Cleary and Hudler-Helm-Maltby. McCarty and Mark Hartigan also got some time in. The guys we have or can get cheaply are capable of the scoring we need, it's just a matter of delivering. Helm and Abby have already shown they can be better in the playoffs than they were last year. So has Cleary if he ends up on the 3rd.

Bert should come cheap, so I can't honestly say he'd be a terrible option. But he's a long, long way from an optimal top 6 winger. A couple good games to end the playoffs, and a couple OT winners in the regular season shouldn't cloud your judgement. He couldn't even manage to score 20 goals while playing on the top lines almost all season, and not missing a game. He won't be any better next year (more likely he'll be worse and/or injured at some point). And if he gets put on the third line with inferior linemates, he'll struggle to score any more than Eaves/Abby/Helm etc, just without the speed and defensive abilities.

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That was the 2009 final, the year we lost.

We lost because of an absurd rash of injuries.

T.Low and Hossa4Life like this

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Would someone please clarify who our third line was in 08? Flip, Huds, Sammy? I really cant remember, but I think Babs switched em up alot on the bottom 6. Point being Blueadams those are not third liner "grinders".

Edited by 13dangledangle

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I think the idea of signing Bertuzzi is that he can move into the top 6 when needed to and it has proven to work. Also, it keeps competition for those net-presence positions on the PP. Franzen used to play that role until he got so damn good at sniping... now putting him in front of the net would be a waste of his skill.

I've said it in another thread, but I think going after Andrew Ladd instead would be very worthwhile. Yes, we would have to trade for his rights, but he's at least as good as current Bertuzzi at everything he does, he's young, and he's not afraid to use his size, and he definitely has the offensive upside when called upon. Additionally, he could probably be signed for the same money but on a longer term, which I personally feel is win/win.

Arguments against?

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I don't get it either. Everyone is basically giving him the finger for running the team when no one else could due to injuries. I want Bert back and still have not heard a good enough argument to release him.

Couldn't agree more. Bert can play on the top line or the 3rd. Give me one player name that can put up 45+ points in a season for the kind of money he is making? Get it done Kenny!

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besides some bad calls throughout the season, and him not hitting like hes 25, you cant argue that he carried this team through a big stretch of games last season and put up like 44PTS, and with what money we have id rather bring in Comrie and keep Bert, would rather have 3 good scoring lines then 2 great ones

Franzen-Zetterberg-Holmstrom

Hudler-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Cleary-Comrie-Filppula

Eaves/Ritola/UFA-Abdelkader-Helm

T.Low likes this

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Do the Wings even make the playoffs last season without Bertuzzi single-handedly winning a stretch of several games when everyone else was injured or slumping? Without those 6-8 points the answer could easily be no.

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besides some bad calls throughout the season, and him not hitting like hes 25, you cant argue that he carried this team through a big stretch of games last season and put up like 44PTS, and with what money we have id rather bring in Comrie and keep Bert, would rather have 3 good scoring lines then 2 great ones

Franzen-Zetterberg-Holmstrom

Hudler-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Cleary-Comrie-Filppula

Eaves/Ritola/UFA-Abdelkader-Helm

i'd rather see what ritola can do on the 3rd line than signing comrie for probably more than he'll be worth to the wings. ritola has skills with the puck. wait for preseason when he plays with flip or hudler (or both) and they dangle all over teams.

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I will be happy either way if bertuzzi re-signs or goes somewhere else. His 1.5 cap hit could be combined with other salary space to get a good forward, and we would lose his 40 minor penalties.

On the downside, we would lose a player who can get really hot at times as we saw, and put up some good points. His chemistry seemed to be getting better as the season rolled along and he had a pretty good playoffs.

Personally, I would like to see the Bertuzzi that sticks up for his teammates and fights once and awhile.

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Here's the problem with Bertuzzi. Like Holmstrom, he's productive when he's surrounded by great players on a top line (hank, pav, mule, flip, huds, etc.). But, also like Holmstrom, he's plain worthless on a third or fourth line. He's not talented enough to create scoring opportunities for himself. He's a liability defensively. He can't skate. He won't hit. Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, if we bring Bertuzzi back, like Homer, he MUST play on a top two line. That means one of these three talented players - Mule, Flip or Huds - will waste away on the third line with Cleary and Helm/Abby.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Helm-Cleary

Miller/*???*-Abdelkader-Eaves

Draper

(Ritola)

...am I the only one who doesn't want to see Flip, Mule, or Huds waste away on that third line??

dobbles likes this

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Would someone please clarify who our third line was in 08? Flip, Huds, Sammy? I really cant remember, but I think Babs switched em up alot on the bottom 6. Point being Blueadams those are not third liner "grinders".

Cleary - Draper - Drake

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The 3rd line in 08 really started going when Babs swapped Sammy and Cleary against Dallas. God that was a great line and so random :thumbup:

I really hope Bertuzzi comes back, he was starting to get comfurtable on a scoring line again and then we got eliminated. If you watched him this year, he isnt lazy anymore, he actually skates. He tries to hard defensively now that he will never go out of his way for a big hit which pisses me off, but some of you are hypocrites. "Oh Bert cant play D, he doesnt hit" Actually because of trying harder to backcheck and play D he lays off the hits. I would love for some of the nasty he had against the Sharks and Jovo in the Phoenix series would come out a little more often, but beggers cant be choosers.

T.Low likes this

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Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here. This is something the Wings don't need.

dobbles likes this

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There's a lot of questions for next season, no matter what we do.

How will Holmstrom hold up. Can Flip step up. Can Cleary get back to where he was. Can Hudler readjust to the NHL and perform up to expectations. Can Abby be better. Is Ritola ready for the NHL. Will Nick show more signs of his age. Will Rafalski. Which Stuart and Kronwall will we get. What about Ericsson and Kindl. Will Jimmy suffer a sophomore slump. Can Ozzie contribute.

Optimism is one thing. Being so optimistic that we bring in another question mark (or two, like Comrie as someone suggested) doesn't seem like the best plan, especially if we're not careful to leave ourselves options.

As it stands, assuming a $2M cap increase, we have about $6.5M left and need 4 forwards and 1 defenseman. Helm and Abby will take two of those spots. Eaves brings speed, some hitting, some offense, good defense, all for under a million. He should be a no-brainer. That leaves one or two forward spots. I would want a spot to go to someone 'tough to play against', someone in the $500k-1M range. A player from whom we'll know what we'll get. Not necessarily a fighter, but someone who plays physical and can agitate.

If we do that, and bring in a steady defenseman for around $1-1.5M, we'd have around $2 million to save for the trade deadline. That would mean we could add around $8 million in annual salary. You could do an awful lot with that money. In fairness, we could add Bert instead of a tough 4th liner, and still have ~$6M for the deadline. I wouldn't hate it if he comes back for a good price. But I'd rather have the 4th liner, and add more at the deadline.

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Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here This is something the Wings don't need.

You mean a stretch of 8 games in which he dominated. He had his slow parts of the season, but overall for his price he was a great value, even if you subtract his one man act which single handedly won us 3-4 games.

Lidstrom for life likes this

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