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The argument for not bringing back Bertuzzi


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#21 Crymson

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:48 PM

Would someone please clarify who our third line was in 08? Flip, Huds, Sammy? I really cant remember, but I think Babs switched em up alot on the bottom 6. Point being Blueadams those are not third liner "grinders".


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#22 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:18 PM

The 3rd line in 08 really started going when Babs swapped Sammy and Cleary against Dallas. God that was a great line and so random :thumbup:

I really hope Bertuzzi comes back, he was starting to get comfurtable on a scoring line again and then we got eliminated. If you watched him this year, he isnt lazy anymore, he actually skates. He tries to hard defensively now that he will never go out of his way for a big hit which pisses me off, but some of you are hypocrites. "Oh Bert cant play D, he doesnt hit" Actually because of trying harder to backcheck and play D he lays off the hits. I would love for some of the nasty he had against the Sharks and Jovo in the Phoenix series would come out a little more often, but beggers cant be choosers.

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#23 Icesurfer

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:20 PM

Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here. This is something the Wings don't need.
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#24 Buppy

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:42 PM

There's a lot of questions for next season, no matter what we do.

How will Holmstrom hold up. Can Flip step up. Can Cleary get back to where he was. Can Hudler readjust to the NHL and perform up to expectations. Can Abby be better. Is Ritola ready for the NHL. Will Nick show more signs of his age. Will Rafalski. Which Stuart and Kronwall will we get. What about Ericsson and Kindl. Will Jimmy suffer a sophomore slump. Can Ozzie contribute.

Optimism is one thing. Being so optimistic that we bring in another question mark (or two, like Comrie as someone suggested) doesn't seem like the best plan, especially if we're not careful to leave ourselves options.

As it stands, assuming a $2M cap increase, we have about $6.5M left and need 4 forwards and 1 defenseman. Helm and Abby will take two of those spots. Eaves brings speed, some hitting, some offense, good defense, all for under a million. He should be a no-brainer. That leaves one or two forward spots. I would want a spot to go to someone 'tough to play against', someone in the $500k-1M range. A player from whom we'll know what we'll get. Not necessarily a fighter, but someone who plays physical and can agitate.

If we do that, and bring in a steady defenseman for around $1-1.5M, we'd have around $2 million to save for the trade deadline. That would mean we could add around $8 million in annual salary. You could do an awful lot with that money. In fairness, we could add Bert instead of a tough 4th liner, and still have ~$6M for the deadline. I wouldn't hate it if he comes back for a good price. But I'd rather have the 4th liner, and add more at the deadline.

#25 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here This is something the Wings don't need.


You mean a stretch of 8 games in which he dominated. He had his slow parts of the season, but overall for his price he was a great value, even if you subtract his one man act which single handedly won us 3-4 games.
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#26 blueadams

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:01 PM

if bertuzzi comes back...we have two line options:

1:

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
Hudler-Helm-Cleary
Miller/FA-Abdelkader-Eaves

...i think that keeping hudler in that third line, with two players that have no hands, is a huge waste of his talent.

2:

Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
Abdelkader-Filppula-Cleary
Miller/FA-Helm-Eaves

...now we've got filppula on that third line, again, with two players that have no hands, and again, imo, that's a huge waste of talent.

if we replace bertuzzi with someone that can be productive on a third line (aka...can play defense, create a little for himself), then this team looks a lot better:

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen
???-Helm-Cleary
Miller/FA-Abdelkader-Eaves

#27 T.Low

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:26 PM

Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here. This is something the Wings don't need.





I disagree. He had a stretch of 8 games where he was frikin on fire!

He is an exceptional value at $1.5m. He demands constant attention from the opposition because he is always a threat, which creates a lot space for linemates. He has great hands, excellent passing sense and abilities, quick wits, quick shots, good moves. He can skate. He wears guys out.

He's not a poorman's Holmstrom at all, he's a poorman's Canuck's Todd Bertuzzi, with more emphasis on being a low budget Joe Thornton. He was always an awesome net presence in Vancouver. He had a move that was borderline legal that he scored on so often that opposing teams sent video of to the league for review.

I recall him backchecking like he wants to prove he belongs in Detroit. He
's busted his hump on the backcheck.

Yes he thinks a little too much at times and forces a turnover...but like they say, if you are not making mistakes out there then you aren't trying to make enough plays.


As far as 4rth lines go, here's a successful softie for ya: Robitaille centering Holmer and The Professor. About as much grit as a newborn babie's cheeks.

Edited by T.Low, 16 June 2010 - 03:29 PM.


#28 mindfly

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:44 PM

Wings getting closer on re-signing Bertuzzi

Also of hugely significant note, Nill says that the Wings are making progress in attempting to re-sign Todd Bertuzzi: Nill said the Wings continue to negotiate with potential unrestricted free-agent forward Todd Bertuzzi and hope something can be worked out soon. "We're getting closer but not there yet," Nill said.



#29 Buppy

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:49 PM

You mean a stretch of 8 games in which he dominated. He had his slow parts of the season, but overall for his price he was a great value, even if you subtract his one man act which single handedly won us 3-4 games.


Hahaha. It was 3 games where he carried us on offense, even in those Jimmy was just as important or more in getting the wins. His 'slow parts' accounted for around 60 or so games. Regardless of value, 18 goals in a full season is not what you want out of your top 6.

#30 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 02:54 PM

Hahaha. It was 3 games where he carried us on offense, even in those Jimmy was just as important or more in getting the wins. His 'slow parts' accounted for around 60 or so games. Regardless of value, 18 goals in a full season is not what you want out of your top 6.


1) He had a stretch of 14 points in 8 games when almost everyone was injured

2)18 goals isn't what you may ask for from your top 6, but for less than 2 million. Bert is a great 2nd-3rd line tweener on this team. His role is not to carry the offense. He makes 3rd liner money.

3) Saying "Hahaha" at the beginning of your post doesn't make you right.
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#31 Buppy

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:46 PM

1) He had a stretch of 14 points in 8 games when almost everyone was injured

2)18 goals isn't what you may ask for from your top 6, but for less than 2 million. Bert is a great 2nd-3rd line tweener on this team. His role is not to carry the offense. He makes 3rd liner money.

3) Saying "Hahaha" at the beginning of your post doesn't make you right.


1.) No he didn't. His best stretch was 10 points in 8 games. 3 of those 8 were the 3 I mentioned, 3 he went scoreless. He had one 3 point game when Pav and Homer also had good games. He had a couple other multi-point games sprinkled through the season, but none where I would say he carried the team. His longest point streak was 3 games. Longest goal streak was 2. Longest point drought was 6 games. Goal drought was 19.

2.) Miss the part where I said 'regardless of value'? No matter what he was paid, or what his role was supposed to be, he played almost entirely in a top line role, and he wasn't very good at it. He was a good deal, but not a good player for the role he was in. He was all we could afford at the time, so I had no problem with it. But this year we didn't need him, we got Hudler back. He may be a good value this year if he's again in a top line role. But he will not be a particularly good player. If he's used in a lesser role, his 'value' will also decrease substantially.

3.) Of course it didn't make me right. Being right made me right. Saying it just expressed how absurd I thought the original statement was. Bert never really 'carried' anything, much less for a stretch of 8 games. He had a handful of decent games. Far, far, far from the saviour some are claiming he was.

Honestly now, can anyone come up with a single argument in Bert's favor that doesn't center around his value relative to his cap hit? (Something we won't know until we see how he actually produces.) Helm, Eaves, and Miller were all better value/point than he was, and brought other skills beyond that. But we don't need or want a whole team full of them.

#32 darkmanx

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:29 PM

I think people are jumping to conclusions a bit. Bertuzzi played all over the place last year (3rd line and 2nd line I believe) because of injuries, until the last couple weeks. If the Red Wings are healthy I don't see how Bertuzzi can do any worse than 44 points, imo, I think hes capable of hitting 55-60 points with a healthy steady line. If he can play all 82 games on the same line with the same players I think he will form better chemistry and put up some solid points this season. I mean, he didn't play that bad in the playoffs I think he finished with 12 points in 12 games, 4th in scoring forwards.

#33 Buppy

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:51 PM

I think people are jumping to conclusions a bit. Bertuzzi played all over the place last year (3rd line and 2nd line I believe) because of injuries, until the last couple weeks. If the Red Wings are healthy I don't see how Bertuzzi can do any worse than 44 points, imo, I think hes capable of hitting 55-60 points with a healthy steady line. If he can play all 82 games on the same line with the same players I think he will form better chemistry and put up some solid points this season. I mean, he didn't play that bad in the playoffs I think he finished with 12 points in 12 games, 4th in scoring forwards.


According to this, over 70% of his ice time came with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg (almost 17% with both). Filppula, Cleary, and Holmstrom were other common linemates. The previous season in Calgary the bulk of his time came with the likes of Iginla, Borque, and Cammalleri. In Anaheim he played mostly with Getlaf, Perry, Selanne, and Ryan.

He's 35 years old. A reasonable expectation, if he plays a top line role again, is for his production to decrease slightly (and he'll probably miss around 10-15 games, further lowering his output). Banking on substantial improvement from him is foolishly optimistic. I think we'll be fortunate to get another 18g and 40 points. If he plays on the third line, we'd be lucky to see much more than half of that.

If anything, you are the one jumping to conclusions. Look back on his play over the season. He was a non-factor for long stretches, even though he was used almost exclusively in a top line role. He had only a handful of standout games. Look at his stats and his play over the past several seasons. Consider the general tendency for players of his age to be in decline. The team should be better overall, just by virtue of health, but Bert as an individual will likely decline, and he could very well be used in a diminished role. All of that strongly suggests that we will NOT get any better production out of him.

#34 Lamothe

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 10:13 PM

Bertuzzi had a stretch of 8 games in which he did well. That's it! IMHO, that is not enough. You could make the argument for about 7 other forwards who had hot stretches and helped the team. You could make a better argument for HOWIE! If it wasn't for Howie the Wings would no doubt not have made the playoffs. Maybe without Bertuzzi the Wings play the Hawks in the first round, avoid the long travel, oust the Hawks and move on. You could do these would've, could've, should've's all day long.

The fact is that Bertuzzi is getting older and slower. Draper was given a contract when we thought he was worth it.... and now we wish he never got that last contract. You don't give an old fart with history of health problems a two year deal at his age. Plus the Wings will have to deal with his legal distractions that have been reinstated click here. This is something the Wings don't need.


Legal disputes has nothing to do with how the man plays hockey. Who cares. That's like saying you shouldn't be hired for a job because you had your license revoked when you were 19 for going 35 over the speed limit. s*** happens, and so does life. We all make mistakes or bad choices at some point.

Bert's personal business is his own. I don't care. If he plays well and fits the team, then I want him here. His life is his own and not mine nor anyone else's business.

Edited by Lamothe, 19 June 2010 - 10:14 PM.


#35 blueadams

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:05 AM

According to this, over 70% of his ice time came with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg (almost 17% with both). Filppula, Cleary, and Holmstrom were other common linemates. The previous season in Calgary the bulk of his time came with the likes of Iginla, Borque, and Cammalleri. In Anaheim he played mostly with Getlaf, Perry, Selanne, and Ryan.

He's 35 years old. A reasonable expectation, if he plays a top line role again, is for his production to decrease slightly (and he'll probably miss around 10-15 games, further lowering his output). Banking on substantial improvement from him is foolishly optimistic. I think we'll be fortunate to get another 18g and 40 points. If he plays on the third line, we'd be lucky to see much more than half of that.

If anything, you are the one jumping to conclusions. Look back on his play over the season. He was a non-factor for long stretches, even though he was used almost exclusively in a top line role. He had only a handful of standout games. Look at his stats and his play over the past several seasons. Consider the general tendency for players of his age to be in decline. The team should be better overall, just by virtue of health, but Bert as an individual will likely decline, and he could very well be used in a diminished role. All of that strongly suggests that we will NOT get any better production out of him.


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