Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted June 20, 2010 Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year Chris Neil 2 Mil Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year Clutterbuck 1.4 mil Steve Bernier 2 mil Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil. All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this. f*** yeah Newf, you tell em buddy. People hate on Bert too much, give the guy a chance. He's gonna perform, he has performed before for us, and most importantly? Look at that beard, he truly is a Red Wing 1 Hockeymom1960 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Finnish Wing 110 Report post Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year Chris Neil 2 Mil Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year Clutterbuck 1.4 mil Steve Bernier 2 mil Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil. All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this. Look, I'm not arguing with Bert being overpaid or anything like that. I'm just saying, you can't really prove it like that. Because you're only naming a couple examples. You have to look at every player around the same cap hit and see what kinda players they are. Or possibly look at every player around the same ppg and look what kinda salaries they have.The only argument I have, that we don't really need a player like Bert, because we now have too many top6 guys. This means either Bert playing on the 3rd line or wasting a great talent in Hudler or Filppula. I'd rather gone after some solid 3rd liner type of guy. Edited June 20, 2010 by Finnish Wing 1 Buppy reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted June 20, 2010 Look, I'm not arguing with Bert being overpaid or anything like that. I'm just saying, you can't really prove it like that. Because you're only naming a couple examples. You have to look at every player around the same cap hit and see what kinda players they are. Or possibly look at every player around the same ppg and look what kinda salaries they have. The only argument I have, that we don't really need a player like Bert, because we now have too many top6 guys. This means either Bert playing on the 3rd line or wasting a great talent in Hudler or Filppula. I'd rather gone after some solid 3rd liner type of guy. Most team have a guy with Berts skill making a lot more money and the guys who make 1.5 are good 3rd and 4th line grinders pretty much. Look through every team and thats what its like, its not just a few examples its just a few that I listed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted June 20, 2010 In short, I think this contract is in the ballpark for Bert. It's up to him to see if it works out to be a great deal or a mistake. He certainly has the potential to score goals, make plays, and knock guys around. I'd be okay with the penalties he takes if it was for being physical and not taking his hand off the stick and grabbing a guy. 1 Zeowingsfan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted June 20, 2010 Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year Chris Neil 2 Mil Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year Clutterbuck 1.4 mil Steve Bernier 2 mil Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil. All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this. Again, it's not so much about Bert being worth the money so much as we didn't need him. He adds next to nothing to this team. Half the guys you're comparing him to offer much more than just scoring, and some are significantly younger. I would much rather have Clutterbuck than Bert, and he'll earn almost 600k less than Bert this year. Neil also adds much more, and is still a few years younger (though I wouldn't really want him at his price either). I'd probably take Ruutu @ 1.3 over Bert too, though I'd prefer someone younger and cheaper. Bernier isn't great, but he's only 25 and at least he hits people. We didn't need another 3rd rate scorer at any price, much less spending $2 mil on a 35 year old for two years. 2 dobbles and Finnish Wing reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted June 21, 2010 just want to reiterate that i realize that it is a very slippery slope to start analyzing how people get points. but i think it this very specific 1 game segment it can be done in a fairly accurate way. the whole reason that the concept can't be used most of the time is because its hard to make sweeping generalizations. using your example, one could say 'Z gets way more EN goals than anyone else' and for the short term that may be right, but given enough games and enough seasons, it all kind of averages out. whereas if you look at a very small sample size or a very specific issue, it can be easier to draw conclusions. and i think anyone that watched that game has to realize that there was 1 player on the ice that was playing head and shoulders above the others and it was franzen. so i think a logical conclusion can be drawn that bert had inflated playoff numbers based on mules beastly game. so to me that should be important in salary negotiations. just as bert not having any goals in the last 31 games while the team was clawing their way into the playoffs and all the way up to the 5 seed. to me its about giving the statistics some context. its like folks that say lidstrom is on the decline because he was only +22 this year. yet he was still at the top of the team that finished pretty poor in goal differential. so when you look more into things, the +22 can mean more or less depending on what you find. i have too. No doubt putting context to statistics is equally important especially in salary negotiations, but to think Kenny who's considered the top GM in hockey hasn't done that is quite far-fetched. It looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree because neither of us seem to be conceding. What I will continue to say, which I know you don't want to acknowledge (not meant as a shot at you) is that I see only upside in Bert this year given the situation the team is in, especially if the injury bug comes back to bite them. You talk about only so many players being able to play alongside Z and Dats (which is a fair analysis) and I say Bert's ability even at this stage of his career exceeds most (if not all) teams' third lines, which means he should shine alongside the Wings' 3rd line. Again, agree to disagree. I think given a year in the system, understanding his role and the need for depth given another injury bug hits poses a need for a player like Bert at the price tag they got him for. So again, agree to disagree. I also believe given Kenny's stance the past few years at the deadline, that the Wings probably won't make a huge move regardless if Bert had been retained. I'm not saying that its right or that I agree with it, but it's something that can't be ignored. On top of that, you/we have no idea how the deadline is going to look and where the prices are going to be. Last year they were insanely high, hence the lack of movement. So while it obviously would be nice to add someone of Semin's calibre come TD-Day one really can't bank on it especially given the talent pool and the types of players in GR, not to mention the lack of appeal of Detroit's normally late round picks. Do I think the Wings would make the playoffs without Bert: absolutely. Do I think it would be wonderful to add a player of Semin's quality at the trade deadline: without a doubt. Is it realistic: I don't believe so. Do I see the merit in adding solid depth that can step up and add scoring if/when the team is injured *throughout the entire 82 game season:* Without question! Attention Buppy: See above 2 dobbles and Buppy reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted June 21, 2010 In context, 86 forwards last year earned between $1-2m --- Bertuzzi finished 15th in points out of all of them. 1 NeverForgetMac25 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted June 21, 2010 In context, 86 forwards last year earned between $1-2m --- Bertuzzi finished 15th in points out of all of them. On top of that, I wonder how many of the 15 that finished ahead of him were young talent not making their real-dollar value yet. Which site did you use to generate those stats? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown0001 7,652 Report post Posted June 22, 2010 Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year Chris Neil 2 Mil Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year Clutterbuck 1.4 mil Steve Bernier 2 mil Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil. All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this. I still can't believe the deal that Kotalik got. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
