159 replies to this topic

[Finnish Wing]

To the people saying he should've taken a pay cut need to check out Mayers salary. He's making 1.4, Bert made 1.5 last year, theres no way Bert should be making less then Mayers.

Yeah, that's definitely a great logic. I also bet all defensemen are using Campbell's salary as a comparison when negotiating for a contract.

Edited by Finnish Wing, 18 June 2010 - 04:10 PM.

[HankthaTank]

Yeah, that's definitely a great logic. I also bet all defensemen are using Campbell's salary as a comparison when negotiating for a contract.

If the Campbell contract was used for the base of all defenseman salary we couldn't even afford Lebda...

[swedishconnection]

Many people here are more interested in screaming "omg this is a bad option" than in sharing what may have been a (realistic) better option.

Dont lump me in with the OMG people. And to NFM's point I never suggested that we needed anything else on the free agent market. Huds is coming home, which pretty much solidifies the 2nd line. Cleary, Eaves, Miller, Draper, Ritola/Abdelkader, and Helm will round out the bottom six. Meech in the presser just in case.

A lot of people seem to go under the assumption that Bert is required - hence the whole "who else are you going to get on the market" argument. I am simply proposing that he(or his role)is not. And is not goes for the salary amount as well - especially with the space diminishing rapidly with our qualified offers. Call me conservative, but I for one would like to see some extra come deadline time or for next July 1.

My point was that we are paying Bert more based on the fact that he played well for us last season. Lids did too, and so did Homer. Why is it that our loyal players that have been here forever are the ones that stand up and take the cut for the team, and we give more to a player that performed marginally above expectations the second time around? I guess we need to go under the assumption that we underpaid last year on the 1 year "tryout" and he has earned his keep.

I trust Holland, and I am sure Bert will be decent on the wings once again. He gets dogged too often, and even I jump on that one a bit with the lackluster passing.

My only question is if Bert is on the 3rd line why are we paying him more this season - if that is where he ends up?

LGW = Home of the armchair GM without a solid retort

Consider my previous post a solid retort. If we are not here to armchair GM, read news, or post ideas, what are we here for?

Why judge someone for something they take pleasure in, even if you dont?

[HankthaTank]

Consider my previous post a solid retort. If we are not here to armchair GM, read news, or post ideas, what are we here for?

Why judge someone for something they take pleasure in, even if you dont?

Actually it was armchair gm WITHOUT SOLID RETORT

CAPS = relevant portion

As for your solid retort I stand corrected.. 1 out of 10 solid retorts on LGW. Why so judgmental friend? I love Huds!!!

[Buppy]

The point you continue to miss is that Bert is not a mediocre scorer for his price tag. Yes, his scoring isn't what it once was, but his production is worth well more than his tag. The players you mentioned aren't in the same boat.

Bert is not a first-rate player, but he's not a third-rate player either. As far as adding a better player at the deadline, adding a player in what would've been that pro-rated price range could just as likely cost too much in regards to prospects/picks. While GR isn't bone-dry, its most certainly not abundant with the type of talent teams are calling Kenny and inquiring about. The Wings draft players for *their* system, which happens to be quite different than most teams.

The bottom line is re-signing Bert was the safe bet, because we could end up with nothing if prices are too high on trade deadline day.
...

... Bert's played the minutes he has because of the overwhelming injury bug that hit Detroit this season. Couple that with the fact that those guys were playing with half the Grand Rapids roster and its reason enough as to why everyone's numbers were down this season. Next year the Wings will have Bert in his second full season and much more familiar with their system. He's proven he can stay healthy and his confidence should be higher than it has been in years. He'll be playing a more balanced role on the team and is going to be able to put the puck in the net both on the second or third line given the roster stays healthy. For his *ability* and all the aforementioned there's no reason Bert can't duplicate and improve on last season and that would make his $1.9375 million cap hit beyond worth it in comparison to other players around the league making the same.

Again, Nystrom can still be had for the bottom 6 if Kenny truly believes he'll benefit this club. I tend to agree that the Wings would benefit from the Drake-type player Kenny promised us but I'm not about to throw Bert under the bus, as if seemingly blaming him for now not having the room to add one of those types.
...

I've admitted on several occasions that Bert was a bargain last season, and that it's not a bad price for someone of his ability. My point is that it doesn't matter. We didn't need a 'bargain' or an eigth potential top 6 forward when we would have been just fine with just a 4th liner grinder and a bunch of extra cap space.

But I'll address the bargain aspect anyway. Something you can't ignore is that there's only so much ice time to go around. Only so many spots in the top 6. Pav and Hank can't play with everyone. Everyone can't get 3 minutes of PP time.

Hudler could score 70 points, Flip could get 60, Bert, Homer, and Cleary could get 50. But they won't. Not all of them at least. Lack of ice time and opportunity WILL mean that someone doesn't get the numbers they're capable of. How much of a bargain is Bert going to be if he gets stuck on the third line and only puts up 13 goals and 22 points? How about another 40 point season from Flip? Or 15 goals from Cleary? Or Hudler? Whether you want to admit it or not, PP time and the quality of their linemates will play a big role in the production of all those players. What good is getting Bert at a minor discount when it means we're overpaying for Flip's production?

All anyone can say in favor of Bert is 'bargain'. But he hasn't scored one point yet, so you have no idea if he will be a bargain or not. You can't just add his full potential without considering the opportunities he'll cost others, nor could you realistically expect him to fulfill his potential from a dimished role. And at this stage, you can't expect improvement either, at least nothing substantial. At best, we could expect similar numbers if he plays another full season on the top lines. Even at that, his presence alone would be costing someone else like Flip or Cleary an opportunity for increased production. And assuming that anyone's production would improve by being moved to the third line is preposterous.

Bert, as an individual, may turn out to be 'worth' his contract. But in terms of his impact on the team, I really can't see it improving the team in any meaningful way. Adding Bert gives a little extra depth in case of injuries. But that's about the only positive I see. But I can also see it coming back to hurt us by limiting our other options. He costs us the opportunity for a much bigger improvement later in the season, and possibly costs us a valuable grinder.

You say we could still add Nystrom or someone similar, but I don't really see it. We're running out of space very quick, and that's assuming a full $2 million increase in the cap. People are expecting minimal raises for Helm and Abby, which is far from certain. A defenseman of any kind of quality is going to cost a decent chunk. If we want someone like Nystrom it could mean we have to sacrifice someone like Eaves or Ritola. And while getting a top end player at the deadline wouldn't be guaranteed, it wouldn't be impossible either. There's always a good number of players available, many being just salary dumps to be had for bargain prices. Nor would we necessarily have to target the best players. A couple mid-tier players could also help considerably more than Bert likely would, and might not cost much in trade. Furthermore, we might not even need to add anything.

Again, I just think Kenny missed the mark on this one. Our top 6 (at least what I expect to be our top 6) lacks speed. We still don't have as many true goal scorers as we should. We lack a tough crease-clearing defenseman. We have a question mark in goal. We're heavily reliant on againg players. And most importantly, our options for addressing any of those are pretty limited for the next two years. Bert doesn't solve any of those problems, and barely even helps the goal scoring. At the very least, we could have had the opportunity to solve a couple of those via trades this year, even if only temporarily. Maybe none of those things will turn out to be real problems. We can hope at least. Unfortunately, that's all we can do.

[26basslines]

Buyout money (and the remaining cap hit that is tied to it) is paid out over twice the time remaining on the contract. So if he had one year left on his deal and was owed $2.66M in '08, he would be paid $1.33M for the next two years.

Oh.. well I'm dumb then. Thanks for the correction.

[dobbles]

While one could make the argument that Bert's playoff numbers were inflated by Franzen's beastly game, the same could be said going the other way, for most players, on every team. Why is it that we can rip certain players for "how" they got their points, but not others. The bottom line is the puck ended up in the back of the net, and plenty of players from top to bottom have been beneficiaries of what some would consider padded numbers. Hell, look at how many EN goals Z gets.

just want to reiterate that i realize that it is a very slippery slope to start analyzing how people get points. but i think it this very specific 1 game segment it can be done in a fairly accurate way. the whole reason that the concept can't be used most of the time is because its hard to make sweeping generalizations. using your example, one could say 'Z gets way more EN goals than anyone else' and for the short term that may be right, but given enough games and enough seasons, it all kind of averages out. whereas if you look at a very small sample size or a very specific issue, it can be easier to draw conclusions. and i think anyone that watched that game has to realize that there was 1 player on the ice that was playing head and shoulders above the others and it was franzen. so i think a logical conclusion can be drawn that bert had inflated playoff numbers based on mules beastly game. so to me that should be important in salary negotiations. just as bert not having any goals in the last 31 games while the team was clawing their way into the playoffs and all the way up to the 5 seed.

to me its about giving the statistics some context. its like folks that say lidstrom is on the decline because he was only +22 this year. yet he was still at the top of the team that finished pretty poor in goal differential. so when you look more into things, the +22 can mean more or less depending on what you find.

Sidenote: I've enjoyed our debate/discussion.

i have too.

[DyingAlive]

Bert can play a good role. I'm curious to see how he plays if we can keep all of our key players healthy this year. Decent sign.

[egroen]

Waiting around for the trade deadline is a crapshoot at best and involves trading away assets (prospects and draft picks at the very least). With league parity more and more teams are within distance of the playoffs meaning less players available at the deadline and higher prices for the ones actually available.

I would much rather have a team solidified at the beginning of the year, giving players all season to get acclimated and for the coaches to find the best lineups... And it does not involve trading away assets.

[Buppy]

Waiting around for the trade deadline is a crapshoot at best and involves trading away assets (prospects and draft picks at the very least). With league parity more and more teams are within distance of the playoffs meaning less players available at the deadline and higher prices for the ones actually available.

I would much rather have a team solidified at the beginning of the year, giving players all season to get acclimated and for the coaches to find the best lineups... And it does not involve trading away assets.

Well, I wouldn't really call it a crapshoot. It's not a guarantee, but it's much more than random luck. Trading away assets is also a strategy that has worked very well for years.

Assuming the worst for our trade prospects while assuming the best from Bertuzzi seems a poor strategy. I don't see how Bert has 'solidified' anything on this team. In a previous post I listed some concerns, and Bert only partially addresses one of them, while mostly eliminating our options for dealing with any of the others should the need arise, and for two years besides.

I still don't see three good scoring lines. Maybe a better than average 3rd depending on the combos, but that's about it. I just don't see the logic of how getting Bert instead of someone like Nystrom is any real improvement. What do you get with Bert? Another 5-10 goals? And you lose some extra speed, physicality, and defensive ability, and even the possibility of some surprise production. That alone seems a worthwhile exchange. When you add in the extra options afforded by an extra million in cap space it seems an obvious choice to me.

I think Kenny is being a little too conservative here, too complacent. He likes familiar faces, I think that's obvious. In this case, I think he just bought the comfort of familiarity, and is banking too heavily on internal improvements. But we will see I guess, nothing can be done about it now.

[newfy]

Yeah, that's definitely a great logic. I also bet all defensemen are using Campbell's salary as a comparison when negotiating for a contract.

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.

f*** yeah Newf, you tell em buddy. People hate on Bert too much, give the guy a chance. He's gonna perform, he has performed before for us, and most importantly? Look at that beard, he truly is a Red Wing

[Finnish Wing]

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.

Look, I'm not arguing with Bert being overpaid or anything like that. I'm just saying, you can't really prove it like that. Because you're only naming a couple examples. You have to look at every player around the same cap hit and see what kinda players they are. Or possibly look at every player around the same ppg and look what kinda salaries they have.

The only argument I have, that we don't really need a player like Bert, because we now have too many top6 guys. This means either Bert playing on the 3rd line or wasting a great talent in Hudler or Filppula. I'd rather gone after some solid 3rd liner type of guy.

Edited by Finnish Wing, 20 June 2010 - 06:59 AM.

[newfy]

Look, I'm not arguing with Bert being overpaid or anything like that. I'm just saying, you can't really prove it like that. Because you're only naming a couple examples. You have to look at every player around the same cap hit and see what kinda players they are. Or possibly look at every player around the same ppg and look what kinda salaries they have.

The only argument I have, that we don't really need a player like Bert, because we now have too many top6 guys. This means either Bert playing on the 3rd line or wasting a great talent in Hudler or Filppula. I'd rather gone after some solid 3rd liner type of guy.

Most team have a guy with Berts skill making a lot more money and the guys who make 1.5 are good 3rd and 4th line grinders pretty much. Look through every team and thats what its like, its not just a few examples its just a few that I listed.

[haroldsnepsts]

In short, I think this contract is in the ballpark for Bert. It's up to him to see if it works out to be a great deal or a mistake.

He certainly has the potential to score goals, make plays, and knock guys around. I'd be okay with the penalties he takes if it was for being physical and not taking his hand off the stick and grabbing a guy.

[Buppy]

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.

Again, it's not so much about Bert being worth the money so much as we didn't need him. He adds next to nothing to this team. Half the guys you're comparing him to offer much more than just scoring, and some are significantly younger. I would much rather have Clutterbuck than Bert, and he'll earn almost 600k less than Bert this year. Neil also adds much more, and is still a few years younger (though I wouldn't really want him at his price either). I'd probably take Ruutu @ 1.3 over Bert too, though I'd prefer someone younger and cheaper. Bernier isn't great, but he's only 25 and at least he hits people.

We didn't need another 3rd rate scorer at any price, much less spending $2 mil on a 35 year old for two years.

[NeverForgetMac25]

just want to reiterate that i realize that it is a very slippery slope to start analyzing how people get points. but i think it this very specific 1 game segment it can be done in a fairly accurate way. the whole reason that the concept can't be used most of the time is because its hard to make sweeping generalizations. using your example, one could say 'Z gets way more EN goals than anyone else' and for the short term that may be right, but given enough games and enough seasons, it all kind of averages out. whereas if you look at a very small sample size or a very specific issue, it can be easier to draw conclusions. and i think anyone that watched that game has to realize that there was 1 player on the ice that was playing head and shoulders above the others and it was franzen. so i think a logical conclusion can be drawn that bert had inflated playoff numbers based on mules beastly game. so to me that should be important in salary negotiations. just as bert not having any goals in the last 31 games while the team was clawing their way into the playoffs and all the way up to the 5 seed.

to me its about giving the statistics some context. its like folks that say lidstrom is on the decline because he was only +22 this year. yet he was still at the top of the team that finished pretty poor in goal differential. so when you look more into things, the +22 can mean more or less depending on what you find.

i have too.

No doubt putting context to statistics is equally important especially in salary negotiations, but to think Kenny who's considered the top GM in hockey hasn't done that is quite far-fetched. It looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree because neither of us seem to be conceding. What I will continue to say, which I know you don't want to acknowledge (not meant as a shot at you) is that I see only upside in Bert this year given the situation the team is in, especially if the injury bug comes back to bite them. You talk about only so many players being able to play alongside Z and Dats (which is a fair analysis) and I say Bert's ability even at this stage of his career exceeds most (if not all) teams' third lines, which means he should shine alongside the Wings' 3rd line. Again, agree to disagree. I think given a year in the system, understanding his role and the need for depth given another injury bug hits poses a need for a player like Bert at the price tag they got him for. So again, agree to disagree.

I also believe given Kenny's stance the past few years at the deadline, that the Wings probably won't make a huge move regardless if Bert had been retained. I'm not saying that its right or that I agree with it, but it's something that can't be ignored. On top of that, you/we have no idea how the deadline is going to look and where the prices are going to be. Last year they were insanely high, hence the lack of movement. So while it obviously would be nice to add someone of Semin's calibre come TD-Day one really can't bank on it especially given the talent pool and the types of players in GR, not to mention the lack of appeal of Detroit's normally late round picks.

Do I think the Wings would make the playoffs without Bert: absolutely. Do I think it would be wonderful to add a player of Semin's quality at the trade deadline: without a doubt. Is it realistic: I don't believe so. Do I see the merit in adding solid depth that can step up and add scoring if/when the team is injured *throughout the entire 82 game season:* Without question!

Attention Buppy: See above

[egroen]

In context, 86 forwards last year earned between $1-2m --- Bertuzzi finished 15th in points out of all of them.

[NeverForgetMac25]

In context, 86 forwards last year earned between $1-2m --- Bertuzzi finished 15th in points out of all of them.

On top of that, I wonder how many of the 15 that finished ahead of him were young talent not making their real-dollar value yet.

Which site did you use to generate those stats?

[Hockeytown0001]

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.

I still can't believe the deal that Kotalik got.