Is Filppula going to be our 3rd line center...or 1st line winger?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I was responding to the comment about "hopefully Datsyuk isn't put with Eaves and Holmstrom" in that it was posted with the attitude that the wingers would affect Datsyuk's performance.

Eaves has a good shot. Zetterberg has shown excellent chemistry with Franzen, and has worked well with Hudler. Zetterberg himself is as much a shooter as he is a playmaker. Hudler is the second best playmaker on the team. Why waste Hudler's talent by putting him with Datsyuk? Why waste Z's chemistry with Franzen? Hudler/Z/Franzen is a line that has worked before and seems a natural combo to me; highly skilled playmaker with good shot, star center with great shot and playmaking skills, plus proven chemistry with both wingers, and excellent scoring winger with great shot and net-front presence.

Datsyuk/Holmstrom is a combo that has been highly effective, so the only question is what winger do you put with them? Do you slot Filppula in and leave the third line center spot to Abdelkader or Helm, neither of whom is really a playmaker, playing with Bertuzzi who is only good below the hash marks and Cleary who is excellent defensively but in the offensive zone his play is primarily based on grinding and crashing the net? Bertuzzi opposite Holmstrom was a decent combo, but really doesn't fit well with the Wings' system. Cleary is a better fit, but ultimately Eaves plays the best puck possession/shooter role to play alongside Datsyuk. Eaves scored 12 goals last season playing on the third and fourth lines in a defensive role. You can give the spot to Drew Miller if you want, he's got skill too, but IMHO Eaves is a better fit.

This leaves a Cleary/Filppula/Bertuzzi third line, a capable two-way line which will provide decent support scoring and solid defense.

But... but... Filppula is going to score at just under a point per game this year! I read that on LGW

[Z and D for the C 712]

But... but... Filppula is going to score at just under a point per game this year! I read that on LGW

Wasn't I reading that Filppula was only good for 40-50 points from you a summer ago?

Edit:

I can't believe people here think he'll get 50-65 points next season. Amazing. People obviously don't understand how offensively talented you have to be to get that many points in the NHL. Hudler's got some of the best hands on the team and arguably the best shot. 57 points was a great run for Hudler. Filppula's hands aren't half of what Hudlers are. Sorry guys-- unless he suddenly becomes an offensive force thinking he'll easily break 50 pts is insane.

Filppula's career upper limit looks to be 60 pts

Now it seems that thinking he won't easily break 50 points is insane.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Buppy 1,720]

I was responding to the comment about "hopefully Datsyuk isn't put with Eaves and Holmstrom" in that it was posted with the attitude that the wingers would affect Datsyuk's performance.

Eaves has a good shot. Zetterberg has shown excellent chemistry with Franzen, and has worked well with Hudler. Zetterberg himself is as much a shooter as he is a playmaker. Hudler is the second best playmaker on the team. Why waste Hudler's talent by putting him with Datsyuk? Why waste Z's chemistry with Franzen? Hudler/Z/Franzen is a line that has worked before and seems a natural combo to me; highly skilled playmaker with good shot, star center with great shot and playmaking skills, plus proven chemistry with both wingers, and excellent scoring winger with great shot and net-front presence.

Datsyuk/Holmstrom is a combo that has been highly effective, so the only question is what winger do you put with them? Do you slot Filppula in and leave the third line center spot to Abdelkader or Helm, neither of whom is really a playmaker, playing with Bertuzzi who is only good below the hash marks and Cleary who is excellent defensively but in the offensive zone his play is primarily based on grinding and crashing the net? Bertuzzi opposite Holmstrom was a decent combo, but really doesn't fit well with the Wings' system. Cleary is a better fit, but ultimately Eaves plays the best puck possession/shooter role to play alongside Datsyuk. Eaves scored 12 goals last season playing on the third and fourth lines in a defensive role. You can give the spot to Drew Miller if you want, he's got skill too, but IMHO Eaves is a better fit.

This leaves a Cleary/Filppula/Bertuzzi third line, a capable two-way line which will provide decent support scoring and solid defense.

The quality of his linemates will affect Datsyuk's performance. And regardless of what Eaves did once, 5 years ago, he hasn't shown himself to be a particularly adept finisher.

Huds-Hank-Franzen would be a nice line, no doubt, but we have few enough players who can both finish and create their own offense. We need to spread them around a bit. Huds would not be 'wasted' playing with Pav, and Hank is a better playmaker anyway, playing a more natural playmaking position. First two lines should each get one of: Pav/Hank, Hudler/Franzen, and Homer/Bert. That's far more balanced than your suggestion, and leaves a 3rd line of Cleary-Flip-Eaves which is IMO a better fit than plugging Bert's slow ass in there.

[dragonballgtz 273]

People need to drop the Zetterberg as the 1st line centre and Datsyuk as the 2nd line centre bulls***. Zetterberg has never put up more points than Datsyuk in the regular season and likely never will. Datsyuk is a superior defensive player and is (generally) better on face-offs.

Do you ever wonder why the Red Wings always play Datsyuk as the 1st line centre in these scenarios? You shouldn't.

Zetterberg's forte is the play-offs. Let him save his steam for when it counts. Datsyuk is too dominant to put on your 2nd line in any scenario.

Overreacting a wee bit there? Who cares if someone places Z's line before Datsyuk's on their wish line list...it just a list for fun. Even if by some miracle someone got it right (who's "1st line" or "2nd line") I would hope come a real game Babs would play the line that has more jump then the other. If its Z's line then they would be "#1" on that night or viceversa.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Wasn't I reading that Filppula was only good for 40-50 points from you a summer ago?

Edit:

Now it seems that thinking he won't easily break 50 points is insane.

That first quote was me poking fun at you (about the point per game).

That second quote was me being awesome. Note that I said he wouldn't break 50pts in 09-10 and he didn't. Damn, man. I rock.

Overreacting a wee bit there? Who cares if someone places Z's line before Datsyuk's on their wish line list...it just a list for fun. Even if by some miracle someone got it right (who's "1st line" or "2nd line") I would hope come a real game Babs would play the line that has more jump then the other. If its Z's line then they would be "#1" on that night or viceversa.

Overreacting is fun and educational.

I don't mean to sound cocky... that's Ezbake's (perceived) shtick.

I'm just having fun with Z and D, he knows I'm cool with Val. I just bought some of his rookie cards this season for kicks, so I can't hate him.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Meh, he'll probably be both at times. Line combinations are always going to change.

[stevkrause 1,247]

How did the Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen line not already lock this one in stone after the chemistry they had at the end of the playoffs is my question...

I think it's a no-brainer...

[Finnish Wing 110]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Hudler-Filppula-Franzen

Bertuzzi-Abdelkader-Cleary

FA-Helm-Eaves

+ Draper, Miller/Filppula

Lidstrom-Kronwall

Stuart-Rafalski

Kindl-Ericsson

+ Lilja

Howard

Osgood

My lineup has basically been the same all the time. The only difference now is the Bert signing, which I wouldn't have done. I'd gone after some good 3rd liner instead. What can you do? The "FA" would be someone who could fight occasionally. Filppula could be a wild card for the extra forward spot.

edit: I actually forgot about Ritola. I think he's competing for the extra forward spots as well. We'll see what happens.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[IILeiBlazeII 15]

Mule-Pav-Homer

Hudler-Z-Flip(1)

Bert-Helm-Cleary

Eaves-Abby-Miller

Boy, these threads don't normally interest me, but those lines are super sexy. I've never thought about Big Bert, Helm and Cleary playing on that 3rd line... hell... imagine:

Scruffleberg - Datsyuk - Homer

Hudler - Val - Mule

Bert - Helm - Cleary

Eaves - Abby - Miller/Draper/Ritola/Ilari

*That* is incredibly exciting - putting the Z-D-H line back together? $$$

[ceebs 2]

I think he should be given a shot as a 2nd line center. And although this idea probably won't be too popular I'd like to see Holmstrom on the 4th line/1st unit pp. He's had too many injuries the past few years and to be honest isn't all that useful 5 on 5. Give him some rest and play him heavily on the pp, where he's most useful.

Datstuk-Zetterburg-Cleary

Hudler-Filppula-Franzen

Bertuzzi-Helm-Eaves

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Draper/Ritola

Helm and Eaves have good chemistry and should both improve next season. Helm was looking decent as a 3rd line center in the playoffs. With the offence created by the first 2 lines the bottom 6 wont be relied upon as heavily. All they have to worry about is playing D, banging bodies, and tryng to get a good cycle going. There is enough skill in the bottom 6 that points will come. Swap out Cleary for Holmstrom on the 1st pp, 2nd pp is 2nd line.. maybe Bert in for Filppula with Hudler at center. We all know babs likes to have his pp units looking similar to his lines so this way we have a strong top 6, and 2 strong pp units.

Edited June 17, 2010 by ceebs

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Im sure your right, but honestly people why would we brake up the Flip, Bert, Mule experiment when it looked sooo good. Not to mention it puts Z & D back together(which we really, really need again)

Actually the best line we had in the few playoff games it was there was Z, Bert, and Mule. They were shelling out a s*** ton of points. But in regards to Flip he isn't going to get that production that Babs is looking for from him on the 3rd. He would have to get back up to either 1st Winger or 2nd winger. It is not time to think of what lines are happening on June 17th though. Training camp can come and Ritola could be a beast and Ilari Flipper could be even better than Val

[Guest blueadams]

are you people COMPLETELY INSANE!?!? how many times do I have to say it...

***TODD BERTUZZI CAN NOT PLAY ON THE 3RD LINE!!!***

for the same reasons that holmstrom can't - he can't skate, he can't create scoring opportunities, he's a liability defensively, and he won't hit anyone. if you put him on a line with...cleary and helm/abby, it will be HORRIBLE. Period. Same as it would be with Homer.

because we've resigned bertuzzi, either hudler or filppula will be TRAPPED on the third line with two players that have no hands...cleary and helm/abby. Their incredible offensive potential will be WASTED.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Helm-Cleary

Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves

Edited June 17, 2010 by blueadams

[stevkrause 1,247]

are you people COMPLETELY INSANE!?!? how many times do I have to say it...

***TODD BERTUZZI CAN NOT PLAY ON THE 3RD LINE!!!***

for the same reasons that holmstrom can't - he can't skate, he can't create scoring opportunities, he's a liability defensively, and he won't hit anyone. if you put him on a line with...cleary and helm/abby, it will be HORRIBLE. Period. Same as it would be with Homer.

because we've resigned bertuzzi, either hudler or filppula will be TRAPPED on the third line with two players that have no hands...cleary and helm/abby. Their incredible offensive potential will be WASTED.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Helm-Cleary

Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves

Yes. he can...

Put him on a line with Cleary and Abdelkader and they would compliment each other quite well as Abs and Cleary would EASILY make up for what Bertuzzi lacks in defense (even though he improved drastically even there last year) and maybe the hitting of Cleary and Abs will rub off on him... couple that with the crash the net style and any of of them can work down low or jam down front...

Furthermore, if anything... you further proved why it makes more sense to put Bertuzzi on the 3rd line... why would you waste the potential and ability of Hudler or Fil on the 3rd line (when they also both make more than Bert money wise) when neither of their styles fit as well on that line as him???

[Buppy 1,720]

Yes. he can...

Put him on a line with Cleary and Abdelkader and they would compliment each other quite well as Abs and Cleary would EASILY make up for what Bertuzzi lacks in defense (even though he improved drastically even there last year) and maybe the hitting of Cleary and Abs will rub off on him... couple that with the crash the net style and any of of them can work down low or jam down front...

Furthermore, if anything... you further proved why it makes more sense to put Bertuzzi on the 3rd line... why would you waste the potential and ability of Hudler or Fil on the 3rd line (when they also both make more than Bert money wise) when neither of their styles fit as well on that line as him???

The lack of any real playmaker would or even a good puckhandler, would severely limit the offensive production of that line, and probably mean they'd spend most of the time chasing the puck in their own zone. They'd get a few goals by crashing the net for sure, but probably no more than you'd get by putting Miller in there instead of Bert. Maybe Abby will show some significant improvement by the time the season opens, but so far I haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he could make that line effective.

Playing Bert in a Holmstrom role on a top line would mean much more production out of him, while having Filppula center the third line (or even Hudler) between Cleary and Eaves (who both have some upside offensively) or even Ritola, makes the line much more dangerous on offense, defense, and in transition. The gains you'd see from Bert, Cleary, and Eaves would be higher than what you'd likely lose from Filppula.

[stevkrause 1,247]

The lack of any real playmaker would or even a good puckhandler, would severely limit the offensive production of that line, and probably mean they'd spend most of the time chasing the puck in their own zone. They'd get a few goals by crashing the net for sure, but probably no more than you'd get by putting Miller in there instead of Bert. Maybe Abby will show some significant improvement by the time the season opens, but so far I haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he could make that line effective.

Playing Bert in a Holmstrom role on a top line would mean much more production out of him, while having Filppula center the third line (or even Hudler) between Cleary and Eaves (who both have some upside offensively) or even Ritola, makes the line much more dangerous on offense, defense, and in transition. The gains you'd see from Bert, Cleary, and Eaves would be higher than what you'd likely lose from Filppula.

and it's also not spreading out your big bodies enough... it's really all a matter of opinion, but to say he CAN'T play on the 3rd line is where my problem is... I think Bert would be just as effective with Cleary and Abdelkader and maybe even moreso, because he wouldn't always be looking to pass like he does when he's with Dats or Z and maybe it would get a little bit of that grit back out of him... I have no problem using him on the PP as well and maybe even rotate he and Holmstrom between the 3rd and 2nd lines and have them share the minutes... but the point is, Fil and Hudler should be given every chance to succeed at this point in their careers and until they play themselves out of that right, that means giving them the most minutes, with the best players possible game in and game out...

[Guest blueadams]

cleary-abdelkader-bertuzzi - worst offensive line ever. not one of them can handle the puck, pass, or shoot. they would constantly be chasing the puck. and one of them sucks on defense. and only one of them hits anyone.

and enough of this 'big body bert' bullcrap. he might measure 6-3, 250 in the doctor's office. but he's about 5-8, 165 on the ice.

Edited June 17, 2010 by blueadams

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

People need to drop the Zetterberg as the 1st line centre and Datsyuk as the 2nd line centre bulls***. Zetterberg has never put up more points than Datsyuk in the regular season and likely never will. Datsyuk is a superior defensive player and is (generally) better on face-offs.

Do you ever wonder why the Red Wings always play Datsyuk as the 1st line centre in these scenarios? You shouldn't.

Zetterberg's forte is the play-offs. Let him save his steam for when it counts. Datsyuk is too dominant to put on your 2nd line in any scenario.

Not to be nitpicky, but in 07-08 and 09-10 Zetterberg would have easily outscored Dats if he had played the entire season.

Wasn't I reading that Filppula was only good for 40-50 points from you a summer ago?

Edit:

Now it seems that thinking he won't easily break 50 points is insane.

If Filppula played all 82 games, he would have been prorated for 52 points. I know he had a hot steak, and with injuries he would have more, but that is just the simple fact. 52 points is not what most people have in mind when they hear "easily" breaking a number.

Wasn't I reading that Filppula was only good for 40-50 points from you a summer ago?

Edit:

Now it seems that thinking he won't easily break 50 points is insane.

If Filppula played all 82 games, he would have been prorated for 52 points. I know he had a hot steak, and with injuries he would have more, but that is just the simple fact. 52 points is not what most people have in mind when they hear "easily" breaking a number.

[newfy 695]

Not to be nitpicky, but in 07-08 and 09-10 Zetterberg would have easily outscored Dats if he had played the entire season.

If Filppula played all 82 games, he would have been prorated for 52 points. I know he had a hot steak, and with injuries he would have more, but that is just the simple fact. 52 points is not what most people have in mind when they hear "easily" breaking a number.

If Filppula played all 82 games, he would have been prorated for 52 points. I know he had a hot steak, and with injuries he would have more, but that is just the simple fact. 52 points is not what most people have in mind when they hear "easily" breaking a number.

Prorated doesn't count for anything in stats. Its either he did or didn't put them up not, well I tihnk he could've since if you prorate it he has 52.

Flip is a good player no doubt but he is yet to prove he is a consistent offensive contributor on this team.

[Guest Crymson]

cleary-abdelkader-bertuzzi - worst offensive line ever. not one of them can handle the puck, pass, or shoot. they would constantly be chasing the puck. and one of them sucks on defense. and only one of them hits anyone.

Oh, right. Let's go over this:

Shooting:

Cleary: 20-30 goal scorer when healthy. Check.

Bertuzzi: 20 goal scorer. Check.

Abdelkader: Developing, but he has shown flashes.

Passing:

Cleary: 20-30 assists per season when healthy. Check.

Bertuzzi: Did very well last year in this department. Check.

Abdelkader: It isn't really his forte.

Hitting:

Cleary: Uhm, yeah.

Bertuzzi: Less than usual, but he showed flashes during the playoffs.

Abdelkader: Was one of our leading hitters in the games he played.

No offense, bud... but you're a moron.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Prorated doesn't count for anything in stats. Its either he did or didn't put them up not, well I tihnk he could've since if you prorate it he has 52.

Flip is a good player no doubt but he is yet to prove he is a consistent offensive contributor on this team.

You realize that's almost exactly what I said right?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Oh, right. Let's go over this: [snip]

I'm not convinced it'll the "worst offensive line ever," but let's apply a little scrutiny to those figures. Cleary and Bert put up those numbers playing on the top two lines, mostly with the team's two best players, Zetteberg and Datsyuk, and occasionally with Filppula.

Cleary fills a very specific net crashing role (and Bert too when he feels like it) and requires a skilled playmaker to get the puck to the net. Abdelkader might develop into a decent scorer sooner or later but he will never be that player.

When the Wings had a third line that saw each player put up 40-50 points, it was Sammy-Flip-Hudler. This proposed line isn't anywhere close to that.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

cleary-abdelkader-bertuzzi - worst offensive line ever. not one of them can handle the puck, pass, or shoot. they would constantly be chasing the puck. and one of them sucks on defense. and only one of them hits anyone.

and enough of this 'big body bert' bullcrap. he might measure 6-3, 250 in the doctor's office. but he's about 5-8, 165 on the ice.

It's funny that you say that because Bertuzzi has a pretty good shot. Poor shot selection at times, but a good shot. No one can realistically say Bertuzzi doesn't have above average hands.

Cleary's got ok hands too but they aren't quite as soft as Bert's. Like Bert, Cleary is definitely capable of creating scoring opportunities.

Abdelkader had a poor showing last season but his offensive skill set didn't magically disappear between the AHL and NHL-- he just needs more confidence and to crash the net more.

Abs, Cleary and Bertuzzi are all very similar players, however, so putting them together on the same line doesn't seem like a brilliant plan.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Abdelkader: Was one of our leading hitters in the games he played.

No offense, bud... but you're a moron.

Abs was the team leader in hits per game by a mile. He ended up with 152 hits in 50 games.

[Broken 16 381]

Simple. Here's what the Wings should start the season with, and shift around to figure out chemistry if necessary:

Hudler/Zetterberg/Franzen

Holmstrom/Datsyuk/Eaves

Cleary/Filppula/Bertuzzi

Abdelkader/Helm/Miller

Draper

Lidstrom/Ericsson

Kronwall/Rafalski

Kindl/Stuart

Meech

Howard

Osgood

I don't critique line combinations very often but those are the worst lines I have ever seen. And that's ignoring your attempt to shoehorn Hudler onto the first line.

The only thing I agree with is Bert on the third line. But not over Eaves. I get that you might be banking on lightning in a bottle from Eaves... but giving him more minutes than Bert AND Flip is just dumb. He's showed potential, but not that much potential. C'mon.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Broken 16

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Oh, right. Let's go over this:

Shooting:

Cleary: 20-30 goal scorer when healthy. Check.

Bertuzzi: 20 goal scorer. Check.

Abdelkader: Developing, but he has shown flashes.

Passing:

Cleary: 20-30 assists per season when healthy. Check.

Bertuzzi: Did very well last year in this department. Check.

Abdelkader: It isn't really his forte.

Hitting:

Cleary: Uhm, yeah.

Bertuzzi: Less than usual, but he showed flashes during the playoffs.

Abdelkader: Was one of our leading hitters in the games he played.

No offense, bud... but you're a moron.

This pretty much sums up how I was going to respond to this... minus calling him a moron. That might just fuel 3 extra line combo threads per week.