Nathan Horton

[newfy 695]

Horton's a decent player, but despite being young, he's been in the NHL for years and has yet to put up a significant number of points. I'd take a healthy Franzen over him.

Horton has put up more then 60 points twice and 57 points once. Franzen had 59, 38 and 30 for his top scoring with better linemates. Horton on a bad team has put up high points consistently since he was a rookie.

[HenryMalredo 2]

Horton has put up more then 60 points twice and 57 points once. Franzen had 59, 38 and 30 for his top scoring with better linemates. Horton on a bad team has put up high points consistently since he was a rookie.

Franzen's a proven playoff performer. He also has only got top-line playing time in the last in recent years and his points total are low last year because of injury. You can say Horton plays with inferior players and that's certainly true, but he's also had more opportunities for top-line minutes but hasn't produced at a top-line level.

[newfy 695]

Franzen's a proven playoff performer. He also has only got top-line playing time in the last in recent years and his points total are low last year because of injury. You can say Horton plays with inferior players and that's certainly true, but he's also had more opportunities for top-line minutes but hasn't produced at a top-line level.

Yeah like I said Franzen in playoffs is a different story. Horton hasn't got a shot to show what he can do in the playoffs so its hard to say. But based on regular season I would gladly trade Mule for Horton straight up.

[king_malice 17]

I think if we have Horton he puts up more points then Mule, look at the numbers Horton puts up playing with no one, Mule gets time with D and Z

[redwingfan19 293]

http://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie

"BTW, nothing imminent on Horton with BOS as in tonight. Stand down..Going to be a big week for potential wheeling and dealing."

[mackel 681]

Ok here's a question... since the lock out what are the biggest trades Holland has made... I don't track this at all but nothing really sticks out to me. I don't recall many if any trades involving prominent players.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Ok here's a question... since the lock out what are the biggest trades Holland has made... I don't track this at all but nothing really sticks out to me. I don't recall many if any trades involving prominent players.

Todd Bertuzzi (didn't work out that great), Brad Stuart (worked out pretty well).

[king_malice 17]

even if Holland made small deals to make us better instead of riding it out all the time id be happy, i dont need blockbuster deals all the time, even something like moving up in the draft would be nice

[mackel 681]

Todd Bertuzzi (didn't work out that great), Brad Stuart (worked out pretty well).

Does Stuart really count? He was a spare part in LA to my memory.

even if Holland made small deals to make us better instead of riding it out all the time id be happy, i dont need blockbuster deals all the time, even something like moving up in the draft would be nice

HAHAHAHA, the Detroit Red Wings move UP in the draft... I think a trade for Ovechkin is more likely.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mackel

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Does Stuart really count? He was a spare part in LA to my memory.

I don't know what his specific role was in LA (nor what criteria you use to decide what "counts" or not), but he was and obviously still is a top 4 defenseman that has had a tremendous impact on the team so it's all good from where I'm sitting.

[mackel 681]

I don't know what his specific role was in LA (nor what criteria you use to decide what "counts" or not), but he was and obviously still is a top 4 defenseman that has had a tremendous impact on the team so it's all good from where I'm sitting.

I agree but I don't think he was viewed by many as a regular top 4... probably a strong 5th occasional 4th. That said you're right he has had an impact on the team.

[Guest Crymson]

Hossa has consistently scored 40 a year pretty much his whole career, it doesn't matter who he plays with. Horton has been stuck in Florida with noone to set him up, is young and a natural goal scorer with untapped potential. He pretty much puts up 30 a year.

Horton is better then Franzen, he can put up as many goals as Franzen playing with scrubs, and he's tougher then Franzen too.

The mule in playoffs might be a different story but regualr season Horton would be superior. Give him 2 years and he would probably be scoring 40-50 goals with Datsyuk.

You are wrong. Horton has put up 30 goals once, which was in 2006-2007; he put up 28 and 27 goals in 2005-2006 and 2007-2008, respectively. During all three of those seasons, he was playing on the wing of Olli Jokinen; the latter was, at the time, one of the better playmakers and scorers in the league. Ever since Jokinen left, Horton has struggled to put up 20 goals per season.

Why did you make such an argument when it was absolutely not backed up by raw data? I can only assume that you didn't actually do your research before posting. Why would you do that? This is a discussion forum, not one meant for arbitrary monologuing.

I agree that Horton has talent. However, I also think that you're vastly exaggerating that talent.

[Guest Crymson]

Ok here's a question... since the lock out what are the biggest trades Holland has made... I don't track this at all but nothing really sticks out to me. I don't recall many if any trades involving prominent players.

Bear in mind that Holland's management strategy stresses loyalty. The organization is loyal to the players and, in return, the players are loyal to the organization. Players know that they will be treated well by the organization and that players are very rarely traded. Many players end up staying with the Red Wings for long periods; many of those accept contracts smaller than they could acquire elsewhere. Also, the consistency in roster makes for a lot of stability in the lockerroom, and it gives fans the chance to really get into players over the long periods those players are with the organization.

In other words, there's a whole lot of reason behind the fact that this organization trades very few players. In my opinion, the management style I described above accounts for a whole lot of the success the team has had over the last decade.

Sadly, many people on these boards think of trades in the sense of video game franchise mode trading; in other words, they don't consider the intangibles.

As far as the significant trades since the lockout go, here's a (short) list:

'07: Jason Williams in exchange for Kyle Calder. This trade released Williams's cap hit from the roster for the following year; Williams had been in a terrible slump since being concussed by Raffi Torres earlier in the season. Calder did very well for the remainder of the regular season, playing a large part in helping the Wings to the #1 seed in the western conference. He was useless in the playoffs; rumor had it that he was playing with a broken hand.

'07: Shawn Matthias and a conditional draft pick in exchange for Todd Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi, at the time of the trade, had been injured for the entire season; he had undergone serious back injury after only eight games with the Panthers. However, the Red Wings were in need of secondary scoring, and Bertuzzi had been one of the best forwards in the game for the previous several seasons. The possibility that he may not play at all was there; however, one might argue that it was worth the risk, given the price. In the event, Bertuzzi helped out a bit during the playoffs. Shawn Matthias never fully developed. He's a career 4th-liner/minor-leaguer. The conditional pick ended up being a 3rd-rounder, as Bertuzzi did not re-sign with the Wings.

'08: Brad Stuart in exchange for a 2nd round draft pick and a 4th round draft pick. This, one might argue, was an excellent trade. While other teams were selling the farm in exchange for players, Holland quietly stepped in and nabbed a very good 2nd-pairing defenseman for a low price. Stuart, as we all know, went on to become a vital part of the '08 Cup run.

Also worth noting is the circumstances that prevailed at the deadline each year (this organization just doesn't trade roster players in the offseason, for the reasons stated above):

'05-'06: Cap space on the team was at a premium in this season. Further, the team had been virtually unstoppable during the regular season; I believe it ended with the 5th-best record of all time in the NHL. As such, Holland and Co can hardly be blamed for feeling that there wasn't a need for any roster adjustments. As a further point of info, the Red Wings only (as I recall) suffered one regulation loss between the trade deadline and the end of the regular season.

'06-'07: The team was hurting for secondary scoring at the deadline. Four notable scorers were available: Tkachuk, Bertuzzi, Guerin and Forsberg. In the event, teams paid quite a bit for Tkachuk, Guerin and Forsberg. Incidentally, none of those players produced much during the playoffs. Holland picked up Bertuzzi for very little, and he filled two purposes (scoring and cap relief) by trading Williams for Calder. He thus fleshed out the roster without selling the farm in any regard. One could genuinely argue that in lieu of the enormous injury spell that struck the team during the playoffs, the '07 team could very easily have won the Cup. Also worth noting is the fact that neither Cup finalist (Anaheim or Ottawa) made any significant deadline deals in that season).

'07-'08: Quite a bit of cap space was available, and secondary scoring was a concern; Franzen had not yet caught fire yet, and so his capacity as a second-line scorer was unknown. Prominent players were few, however, and they went for a high price. Holland correctly judged that entering the bidding war was unnecessary. He picked up Stuart and the rest is history.

'08-'09: This team had absolutely no cap space and a whole lot of talent. I think few could argue that any deadline activity was necessary.

'09-'10: As with the previous year, cap space was virtually nonexistent.

[newfy 695]

Bear in mind that Holland's management strategy stresses loyalty. The organization is loyal to the players and, in return, the players are loyal to the organization. Players know that they will be treated well by the organization and that players are very rarely traded. Many players end up staying with the Red Wings for long periods; many of those accept contracts smaller than they could acquire elsewhere. Also, the consistency in roster makes for a lot of stability in the lockerroom, and it gives fans the chance to really get into players over the long periods those players are with the organization.

In other words, there's a whole lot of reason behind the fact that this organization trades very few players. In my opinion, the management style I described above accounts for a whole lot of the success the team has had over the last decade.

Sadly, many people on these boards think of trades in the sense of video game franchise mode trading; in other words, they don't consider the intangibles.

As far as the significant trades since the lockout go, here's a (short) list:

'07: Jason Williams in exchange for Kyle Calder. This trade released Williams's cap hit from the roster for the following year; Williams had been in a terrible slump since being concussed by Raffi Torres earlier in the season. Calder did very well for the remainder of the regular season, playing a large part in helping the Wings to the #1 seed in the western conference. He was useless in the playoffs; rumor had it that he was playing with a broken hand.

'07: Shawn Matthias and a conditional draft pick in exchange for Todd Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi, at the time of the trade, had been injured for the entire season; he had undergone serious back injury after only eight games with the Panthers. However, the Red Wings were in need of secondary scoring, and Bertuzzi had been one of the best forwards in the game for the previous several seasons. The possibility that he may not play at all was there; however, one might argue that it was worth the risk, given the price. In the event, Bertuzzi helped out a bit during the playoffs. Shawn Matthias never fully developed. He's a career 4th-liner/minor-leaguer. The conditional pick ended up being a 3rd-rounder, as Bertuzzi did not re-sign with the Wings.

'08: Brad Stuart in exchange for a 2nd round draft pick and a 4th round draft pick. This, one might argue, was an excellent trade. While other teams were selling the farm in exchange for players, Holland quietly stepped in and nabbed a very good 2nd-pairing defenseman for a low price. Stuart, as we all know, went on to become a vital part of the '08 Cup run.

Also worth noting is the circumstances that prevailed at the deadline each year (this organization just doesn't trade roster players in the offseason, for the reasons stated above):

'05-'06: Cap space on the team was at a premium in this season. Further, the team had been virtually unstoppable during the regular season; I believe it ended with the 5th-best record of all time in the NHL. As such, Holland and Co can hardly be blamed for feeling that there wasn't a need for any roster adjustments. As a further point of info, the Red Wings only (as I recall) suffered one regulation loss between the trade deadline and the end of the regular season.

'06-'07: The team was hurting for secondary scoring at the deadline. Four notable scorers were available: Tkachuk, Bertuzzi, Guerin and Forsberg. In the event, teams paid quite a bit for Tkachuk, Guerin and Forsberg. Incidentally, none of those players produced much during the playoffs. Holland picked up Bertuzzi for very little, and he filled two purposes (scoring and cap relief) by trading Williams for Calder. He thus fleshed out the roster without selling the farm in any regard. One could genuinely argue that in lieu of the enormous injury spell that struck the team during the playoffs, the '07 team could very easily have won the Cup. Also worth noting is the fact that neither Cup finalist (Anaheim or Ottawa) made any significant deadline deals in that season).

'07-'08: Quite a bit of cap space was available, and secondary scoring was a concern; Franzen had not yet caught fire yet, and so his capacity as a second-line scorer was unknown. Prominent players were few, however, and they went for a high price. Holland correctly judged that entering the bidding war was unnecessary. He picked up Stuart and the rest is history.

'08-'09: This team had absolutely no cap space and a whole lot of talent. I think few could argue that any deadline activity was necessary.

'09-'10: As with the previous year, cap space was virtually nonexistent.

I completely forgot about the Williams Calder swap. Calder was s*** in the playoffs thats for sure.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Horton has put up more then 60 points twice and 57 points once. Franzen had 59, 38 and 30 for his top scoring with better linemates. Horton on a bad team has put up high points consistently since he was a rookie.

Just to play Devil's advocate - being on a bad team does not always equate to poor numbers - sometimes it's the exact opposite, as you see more quality minutes... couple that with the fact that Fla is in the weakest division in the NHL and the weaker of the 2 conferences and majority of his games are not against the same caliber of teams that we face... ALSO, Horton averages 20:53 of ice time a game, whereas Franzen only averages 18:42

I think Horton is a great player and would benefit any team he played for and I think a change of scenery to a good hockey market would definitely spark him as well, however... lets keep things in perspective...

[HenryMalredo 2]

Just to play Devil's advocate - being on a bad team does not always equate to poor numbers - sometimes it's the exact opposite, as you see more quality minutes... couple that with the fact that Fla is in the weakest division in the NHL and the weaker of the 2 conferences and majority of his games are not against the same caliber of teams that we face... ALSO, Horton averages 20:53 of ice time a game, whereas Franzen only averages 18:42

I think Horton is a great player and would benefit any team he played for and I think a change of scenery to a good hockey market would definitely spark him as well, however... lets keep things in perspective...

I concur. While Horton plays with lesser plays, he does get to play a bigger part in the offense, therefore, usually an opportunity to generate more offense. You can talk about Horton's lack of good teammates, but compare his production to that of fellow draft-mates, Eric Staal and Thomas Vanek, who also ended up on teams that were bad at the time.

[Guest Crymson]

I completely forgot about the Williams Calder swap. Calder was s*** in the playoffs thats for sure.

Nice job totally ignoring my response to your consummately hyperbolic post.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Crymson

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

If Burke has his way,Toronto's first line consists of:

Sharp-Kessel-Horton

[newfy 695]

You are wrong. Horton has put up 30 goals once, which was in 2006-2007; he put up 28 and 27 goals in 2005-2006 and 2007-2008, respectively. During all three of those seasons, he was playing on the wing of Olli Jokinen; the latter was, at the time, one of the better playmakers and scorers in the league. Ever since Jokinen left, Horton has struggled to put up 20 goals per season.

Why did you make such an argument when it was absolutely not backed up by raw data? I can only assume that you didn't actually do your research before posting. Why would you do that? This is a discussion forum, not one meant for arbitrary monologuing.

I agree that Horton has talent. However, I also think that you're vastly exaggerating that talent.

Mule has played with guys like Datsyuk and Zetterebrg the whole time he has been scoring for the wings and they are definitely superior to Jokinen. Horton has put up more then 60 points twice and mule never has they also have another season where mule got 59 and Horton 57.

Mule is a great player but Horton is better. If you gave Horton Dats on his line he would score tonnes of goals.

Mule is the man in the playoffs though so he has the edge there. Horton hasn't proved anything there.

Also if I made any mistakes or anything in this post I;m slightly drunk right now so dont haold it against me.

[Guest Crymson]

Mule is a great player but Horton is better. If you gave Horton Dats on his line he would score tonnes of goals.

LOL. I've gotta think that you've hardly ever even watched Horton play, and that you're making these claims anyway.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

No way Horton has more talent than Franzen.Horton doesn't have the greatest team surrounding him and I think he can be a good solid player,but he's not Johan Franzen.Horton's work ethic has been question in the past,I think a change if scenery will greatly benefit him.

[Octopus's Garden 147]

Horton the Bruins looks like a "done deal" according to TSN's Bob McKenzie. Nice add by Boston if true.