45 replies to this topic

[Crymson]

Cleary wasn't really injured two years ago. He just had a poor year and struggled to find his place. Maybe he'll do well this year, maybe not.

He was playing on the 3rd line in that regular season. He still put up 40 points. In the postseason, he was one of the best players on the team. He had 15 points and his +/- was absurdly high (+17).

Of course, these are things that people like you will continually omit in argument; you know they'll weaken your case, and so instead of admitting that you have a weak argument, you simply don't include important info and hope that nobody else will either. Good work.

Edited by Crymson, 20 June 2010 - 04:22 PM.

[Buppy]

He was playing on the 3rd line in that regular season. He still put up 40 points. In the postseason, he was one of the best players on the team. He had 15 points and his +/- was absurdly high (+17).

Of course, these are things that people like you will continually omit in argument; you know they'll weaken your case, and so instead of admitting that you have a weak argument, you simply don't include important info and hope that nobody else will either. Good work.

3rd line?

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen. 1:45/game on the PP. Even playing on the third line was with players like Flip, Hudler, and Sammy.

He had a poor year. He was not fighting through injuries all season. He was not stuck with poor linemates. He just had a poor season (in relation to what we were hoping to get from him). For the record, I'm not saying he's a poor player, or that we should get rid of him if we could. I said he was not fighting injuries 2 years ago, and still had a bad year. Those are facts. I said he, or someone else, will get stuck on the third line and their production will suffer for it. (Something you apparently agree with from your statement about Cleary... even if it wasn't accurate.)

Of course, these are things that people like you continually omit. You make emotional statements without any factual foundation or research to support your arguments. Rather than admitting you have a weak argument, you don't bother to check if you even have an argument, nor try to understand what it is you're arguing against. Good work.

Edited by Buppy, 20 June 2010 - 05:55 PM.

[Esquire]

Just as Hudler was 2 years ago, right? Oh wait...

2008-2009

Hudler

23 Goals, 34 Assists, 57 points (Regular Season)
4 Goals, 8 Assists, 12 points (Playoffs)

Fillpula

12 Goals, 28 Assists, 40 points (Regular Season)
3 Goals, 13 Assists, 16 points (Playoffs)

When's the last time Fillpula has cracked 20 goals in a season? Because to automatically assume a guy who has never cracked 20 goals in a season should without a doubt be placed on the top 2 lines is a big stretch. Especially when you'd have to take someone off those lines who have all proven they can produce.

From time to time Fillpula has shown that he can be the player everyone thinks he can be, but again, until the points come and he does it on a consistent basis the other 6 guys ahead of him should stay put.

If you put him with good players then yes, he plays very well. On the other hand when you put him with scrubs like Cleary, who can't finish, then his potential is lost.

Again, if Filppula has the talent that everyone seems to think he has then you can't "waste" talent like that since good players are supposed to make everyone around them better and the points should come. And if he shows he can produce, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be on the top 2 lines. It's not a bias I have, it's just hockey.

Edited by BleedRed&White, 20 June 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Looks great to me, especially seeing Franzen on a line with Zetterberg. No more of this Franzen with Datsyuk combination -- Mule has always shown great chemistry with Z and they should play together.

The only potential thing I could see is possibly putting Hudler down on Filppula's wing as the two have played well together previously. Move Bertuzzi up with Datsyuk and Holmstrom, reunite Cleary with Franzen and Zetterberg.

I actually really like that idea.

Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen
Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Eaves-Filpulla-Hudler
Abdelkader-Helm-Miller/FA/Ritola/Draper

The top line was the most dominate in the 09 playoffs, the 2nd line started to develop a little chemistry after 10-15 games last year when everyone was banged up, the 3rd line is pretty much a 2nd line, especially if Eaves stays healthy. And then the 4th line is a line that can run people through the boards all night.

The board is starting to go overboard with all of the line combo's lately though lol, that's my last contribution until training camp. I'm sure before it's all said and done Mike will have tried alot of stuff.

[Buppy]

...When's the last time Fillpula has cracked 20 goals in a season? Because to automatically assume a guy who has never cracked 20 goals in a season should without a doubt be placed on the top 2 lines is a big stretch. Especially when you'd have to take someone off those lines who have all proven they can produce.

From time to time Fillpula has shown that he can be the player everyone thinks he can be, but again, until the points come and he does it on a consistent basis the other 6 guys ahead of him should stay put.

Again, if Filppula has the talent that everyone seems to think he has then you can't "waste" talent like that since good players are supposed to make everyone around them better and the points should come. And if he shows he can produce, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be on the top 2 lines. It's not a bias I have, it's just hockey.

Flip is a playmaker. As such, he needs players capable of finishing to really produce. No one is claiming he's an all-star. Unless you're talking about elite players, then talent can certainly be 'wasted' by being used in a too-limited role. Most players need an opportunity in the top lines before they start producing like top line players. Those 'flashes' are what earn the opportunity, and Flip has shown more than a few. Performing well once you get the opportunities is what keeps you there. Flip has done that as well, IMO.

With the personnel we have, I think we'd be better off with Flip centering the third line, but I don't know how anyone who has watched the guy play could say he doesn't deserve a shot at a top line role.

[wingsownnhl43]

2008-2009

Hudler

23 Goals, 34 Assists, 57 points (Regular Season)
4 Goals, 8 Assists, 12 points (Playoffs)

Fillpula

12 Goals, 28 Assists, 40 points (Regular Season)
3 Goals, 13 Assists, 16 points (Playoffs)

When's the last time Fillpula has cracked 20 goals in a season? Because to automatically assume a guy who has never cracked 20 goals in a season should without a doubt be placed on the top 2 lines is a big stretch. Especially when you'd have to take someone off those lines who have all proven they can produce.

From time to time Fillpula has shown that he can be the player everyone thinks he can be, but again, until the points come and he does it on a consistent basis the other 6 guys ahead of him should stay put.




Again, if Filppula has the talent that everyone seems to think he has then you can't "waste" talent like that since good players are supposed to make everyone around them better and the points should come. And if he shows he can produce, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be on the top 2 lines. It's not a bias I have, it's just hockey.

"Shakes Head"

I dont know how many times this has been brought up, and every time someone tries to make the argument that Hudler is better than Filppula, their argument gets blown to shreds.

07-08 Even strength points
Filppula, 11 goals 25 assists 36 points, 80 games

Hudler, 17 goals, 12 assists, 29 points, 82 games

Flips stats for 09-10, 35 points, 55 games = 52 point pace

Also, Flip is much, much better defensively.


Im glad to have Hudler back but it isnt even close guys. Theres a reason Flip is paid more than Hudler, and it will come more clear for everyone next season.

[Drake_Marcus]

I'd like to see Franzen play with Datsyuk rather than Zetterberg. Datsyuk is undoubtedly our best playmaker, whereas Franzen is definitely our best pure goal scorer. The two together should be able to make some noise.

I prefer Datsyuk with Franzen and Hudler with Zetterberg. Both Z and Huds are hybrid passer/scorer type guys while Dats and Franzen are pure playmaker/scorer types of guys.

Throw Bertuzzi with Hudler and Z to be their net-front guy and put Holmstrom with Dats since those two seem to be inseparable.

If you're dead set on Filppula playing on the top six switch him with Hudler, I guess, but I'd much rather have Zetterberg with Hudler to minimize any defensive issues. Filppula would immediately make the 3rd line defensively responsible since he's such a good defensive centre.

"Shakes Head"

I dont know how many times this has been brought up, and every time someone tries to make the argument that Hudler is better than Filppula, their argument gets blown to shreds.

07-08 Even strength points
Filppula, 11 goals 25 assists 36 points, 80 games

Hudler, 17 goals, 12 assists, 29 points, 82 games

Flips stats for 09-10, 35 points, 55 games = 52 point pace

Also, Flip is much, much better defensively.


Im glad to have Hudler back but it isnt even close guys. Theres a reason Flip is paid more than Hudler, and it will come more clear for everyone next season.

Filppula played way more even strength mins. What are their even strength points per min values?

Also, proving that Filppula was on pace for 52pts last season doesn't really help your case against the guy who last scored 57pts.

[Heroes of Hockeytown]

Flip and Hudler are both good offensive players in different ways. Jiri has better vision, and in fact is a tremendous playmaker that I think is second to only Datsyuk on the team. He didn't win any genetic lottery which is why he does his best work on the power play where size and speed aren't an issue. He is much more decisive with the puck and a better shooter than Flip.

Flip is a very good skater and that's why he is successful at even strength where he can do work in transition. This year's playoffs are a good example of that -- please recall him winning a footrace to the puck from Bert's aerial alley-oop to beat Bryz on a breakaway in Game 2, or how he used his speed to beat Keith Yandle to the outside and get off a shot in Game 7 that Bert collected the rebound on and scored. These are plays Hudler could never hope to make.

Both are top six material but have happened to play on a deep team that has always had better options at their positions.

[plopster]

all player debates aside, here are my projections/hope for the lines next year. I may be wrong, but if they arent keeping lilja then i guess we put erricson in there but damn he sucked quite a bit last year. and dont even get started with the bertuzzi debate. hes a bum on offense and you all know it. yes he was good at keeping the team afloat with all the injuries last year, but he just isnt up to par on offense like the rest of the forwards on this list and you all know it. like some people on here said in the maltby thread, its time to stop being sentimental. he was a good fill in and thats it. end of story. you were grasping at straws last year saying he was great. he was turnover todd and you all know it.

zeterberg, datsyuk, holmstrom
hudler, fillpula, franzen
draper, helm, eaves,
miller, abdelkader, bertuzzi

lidstrom, kronwall
rafalski, stuart
lilja, kindl

[Esquire]

"Shakes Head"

I dont know how many times this has been brought up, and every time someone tries to make the argument that Hudler is better than Filppula, their argument gets blown to shreds.

07-08 Even strength points
Filppula, 11 goals 25 assists 36 points, 80 games

Hudler, 17 goals, 12 assists, 29 points, 82 games

Flips stats for 09-10, 35 points, 55 games = 52 point pace

Also, Flip is much, much better defensively.


Im glad to have Hudler back but it isnt even close guys. Theres a reason Flip is paid more than Hudler, and it will come more clear for everyone next season.

Are you honestly saying that my statistical comparison of Filppula and Hudler will be "blown to shreds" when in the same reply, you're trying to tell me that salary is an absolute reflection of talent? Also, Filppula makes $125,000 more per year than Hudler so if you can give me an answer as to what Filppula will do more than Hudler for $125,000 than I'm all ears.

And the "just wait til next season" lines on Filppula are bordering on legend. Using the logic you have used, if he's paid more he should have already put better numbers than Hudler but as it stands RIGHT NOW, consideration for a top line spot should go to Hudler because he's been statistically better than Filppula every single season they've shared the same ice.

If Filppula turns it on then I'll eat crow, give him all the credit he deserves, and call for Hudler to be replaced. Again, I don't have a hidden agenda against the guy I'm just reading the numbers.

[SwedeLundin77]

3rd line?

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen. 1:45/game on the PP. Even playing on the third line was with players like Flip, Hudler, and Sammy.

He had a poor year. He was not fighting through injuries all season. He was not stuck with poor linemates. He just had a poor season (in relation to what we were hoping to get from him). For the record, I'm not saying he's a poor player, or that we should get rid of him if we could. I said he was not fighting injuries 2 years ago, and still had a bad year. Those are facts. I said he, or someone else, will get stuck on the third line and their production will suffer for it. (Something you apparently agree with from your statement about Cleary... even if it wasn't accurate.)

Of course, these are things that people like you continually omit. You make emotional statements without any factual foundation or research to support your arguments. Rather than admitting you have a weak argument, you don't bother to check if you even have an argument, nor try to understand what it is you're arguing against. Good work.

I think the year in question was when he had the eye injury, only missed like the first 10 or so games, but had to wear a screen for a while cause his eye was still bugging him. I remember they were talking about how that inhibited him in playing the way he plays best, hard on the boards, head down, mucking it up. That's his game, he grinds, but he couldn't see down in his feet as well so that slowed him down, and he just had a tough time getting into a groove. Cleary could have played better, but it would be nonsense to dismiss the injuries he has had the past few years have been unfortunate. To omit that from the argument is ignorant.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

SwedeLundin77 makes a valid point with Cleary's eye.Will he go back to just the normal helmet or is he gonna keep the visor on for the rest of his career?

[RedWingedKitten]

The lines are going to be switched around left and right all season i'm sure. Probably the same way in the playoffs.

I would like to see Z and Pavs together and give the second line to Flip and Mule.

Lets go Red Wings!

[Buppy]

I think the year in question was when he had the eye injury, only missed like the first 10 or so games, but had to wear a screen for a while cause his eye was still bugging him. I remember they were talking about how that inhibited him in playing the way he plays best, hard on the boards, head down, mucking it up. That's his game, he grinds, but he couldn't see down in his feet as well so that slowed him down, and he just had a tough time getting into a groove. Cleary could have played better, but it would be nonsense to dismiss the injuries he has had the past few years have been unfortunate. To omit that from the argument is ignorant.

I remember them talking about that when he was wearing the lower face shield after the broken jaw, but not the season with the eye injury.

I don't know why it's such a hard thing for people to just admit that Cleary had a sub-par season a couple years ago, and it wasn't because of injuries. So now it wasn't even the injury it was the equipment he had to wear after the injury. What's next, distracted by a piece of tissue on his chin after he cut himself shaving? f***, I'm not telling the villagers to grab their pitchforks. I just said the guy wasn't fighting through injuries two years ago, he just had a down year.

[egroen]

all player debates aside, here are my projections/hope for the lines next year. I may be wrong, but if they arent keeping lilja then i guess we put erricson in there but damn he sucked quite a bit last year. and dont even get started with the bertuzzi debate. hes a bum on offense and you all know it. yes he was good at keeping the team afloat with all the injuries last year, but he just isnt up to par on offense like the rest of the forwards on this list and you all know it. like some people on here said in the maltby thread, its time to stop being sentimental. he was a good fill in and thats it. end of story. you were grasping at straws last year saying he was great. he was turnover todd and you all know it.

zeterberg, datsyuk, holmstrom
hudler, fillpula, franzen
draper, helm, eaves,
miller, abdelkader, bertuzzi

lidstrom, kronwall
rafalski, stuart
lilja, kindl

Would love, love, love to see the Cup-winning line of Z/D/H back regularly. Teams simply had no answer to this line.
I think Hudler, Filppula and Franzen would tear it up as well.

[blueadams]

someone mentioned these interesting combinations earlier...

#1) Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary
...this line has always been great!

#2) Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
...it seems like pav wouldn't have enough help on this line with bertuzzi being his best partner...but this was our best line at times last season.

#3) Hudler-Filppula-Abdelkader
...very very solid 3rd scoring line.

#4) Miller-Helm-Eaves

[HankthaTank]

I want to see...

Hudler, Datsyuk, Holmstrom
Franzen, Zetterberg, Cleary
Bertuzzi, V.Filppula, Ritola ( I.Filppula)
Abdelkader, Helm, Eaves (Miller, Draper)

Lidstrom, Kronwall
Rafalski, Stuart
Ericsson, Kindl
Meech(Lilja)

be about it...

I am all in for those. I Flip needs to be taken out for now. We have nooo idea what thats going to be. I see the () but still, its a waiting game on that.

[Finnish Wing]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Filppula-Franzen
Cleary-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi
Draper-Helm-Eaves
+ Miller, Ritola

Lidstrom-Kronwall
Stuart-Rafalski
Kindl-Ericsson
+ Lilja

Howard
Osgood

I really want to see Hank and Pav playing together. I also want to pair Kronwall with Lidstrom to balance out the first pairings. Rafalski is the most offense-minded of our top4 and Stuart is the most defense-minded. Kronwall and Lidstrom are more balanced.

[cmonster]

Datsyuk/Filpulla/Holmstrom

Zetterberg/Franzen/Hudler

Abdelkader/Bertuzzi/Cleary

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Miller
Ritola


Lidstrom/Rafalski
Stuart/Kronwall
Ericcson/Lilja

Kindl


Howard
Osgood

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler
Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi
Boulton-Abdelkader-Eaves
Draper

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Stuart-Kronwall
Ericsson-O'Donnell
Kindl
Janik