newfy 695 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Some people on the board think that anyone who fights is elevated to godlike genius, and anyone who doesn't fight (Franzen) is a Europuss. They'll never look past the fighting because that's all they see. Truthfully, he's a $1.625 million liability every time he steps on the ice for the next three years for Philly. This is a horrible deal for Philly, but it was the best one on the table and one they had to take given their cap situation. Normally they were able to hide salary and shift guys on and off LTIR but they're clearly out of options if Gagne is healthy. But, wow. Stamkos, Gagne, St. Louis, Lecavalier... that's the beginnings of a good, top-five offense in the NHL. A couple more 20-goal guys develop and they're right up there with Pittsburgh at forward. Defense is still a problem, but it was also a problem with Walker there. And then theres the others on this board who think anyone who fights is just a goon that can't play hockey. You seem to fall into that category because youre clearly ignoring the stats. So youre saying Lilja was a 1.25 million dollar liability every time he steps on the ice for Detroit? And by the way, Franzen doesn't even hit so yeah he is a *****. You'll never see me call Stuart a ***** or Kronwall, but Franzen yes big time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjlegend 155 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 There is a difference between a defensively reliable, net-clearing shot-blocking defenceman and a plug with skates like Walker. How he ever signed a 4-year, $6.8 million deal with the Lightning last summer is a testament to Brian Lawton's complete lack of GM intelligence. He's probably a good #4 defenceman on GR. The day the Wings pay a #6-7 defenceman $1.6 million/year is the day the salary cap is at $70 million. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Yeah because I said they have to be tough to be a good defenseman? Being tough is a plus and is a style of play. Lilja attempted to play a tough game, which he did fairly well before the concussion. It just so happens that Walker is tougher. And just because he is a great fighter doesn't make him any better at defense. The guy is a pylon who can fight. Big deal. I never get the hate for tough defenseman on this board. Seriously, its like a defenseman drops the gloves and he's automatically hurting the team, or he's a big hitter so that means he's always going out of position to make hits on the opposing forwards. No, I'm just pointing out that fighting+toughness=/=good valuable hockey player. Every single compliment to player from you deals with their tenacity, toughness, or fighting ability, and it is quite silly. Lilja is not anything special as a player and Walker would fill that role perfectly if he were to come here. What does Walker do? Give the puck away too much? Guess what.. Lilja was apt to do that all the time. Everyone talks about how great Lilja is like he will be impossible to replace but really he's your fairly average bottom pairing defender that found a nice role on the PK Lilja was one of Detroit's best PK defensemen and did very well for himself on even strength when he came back. Either way Lilja isn't coming back and I don't see how bringing in Walker helps the team at all. I mean, you give Franzen s*** for being a top 6 forward who doesn't hit often. Considering his injury history I don't see why you make the ridiculous assertion that Franzen would provide more by hitting instead of playing into the system that has won Detroit a cup, a WCF appearance, and a SCF appearance. How many "tough" teams have done more? 1 Zeowingsfan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesusberg 1,256 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 For a #6 defenseman,Matt Walker is a hell of a lot more useful than Lilja.Come on now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HankthaTank 1,100 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here... Kind of hard to justify anyone's real "worth considering guys like Boogaard and Campbell can rake in those ridiculous contracts. Edited July 19, 2010 by HankthaTank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 For a #6 defenseman,Matt Walker is a hell of a lot more useful than Lilja.Come on now. Yeah especially for that 1.7 million cap hit. What a steal for a mediocre defensive player who can fight great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 And just because he is a great fighter doesn't make him any better at defense. The guy is a pylon who can fight. Big deal. No, I'm just pointing out that fighting+toughness=/=good valuable hockey player. Every single compliment to player from you deals with their tenacity, toughness, or fighting ability, and it is quite silly. Lilja was one of Detroit's best PK defensemen and did very well for himself on even strength when he came back. Either way Lilja isn't coming back and I don't see how bringing in Walker helps the team at all. I mean, you give Franzen s*** for being a top 6 forward who doesn't hit often. Considering his injury history I don't see why you make the ridiculous assertion that Franzen would provide more by hitting instead of playing into the system that has won Detroit a cup, a WCF appearance, and a SCF appearance. How many "tough" teams have done more? No he isn't a pylon thats the thing. The fact that he can fihgt makes posters like you say he is. I never said fighting equals good or valuable. I said be able to fight is a plus for sure. If 2 guys are the same skill level obviously the guy who can fight is going to be a more valuable player. Thats why Lucic is making 4 million bucks a season already when he has only ever scored 17 goals. I compliment guys toughness when they are tough. I compliment Datsyuk for having the best hands in the league and I will give compliments where they are deserved. Its quite silly how you don't seem to think grit and tenacity are part of the game really? Yes I give Franzen s*** for not laying the body because if he did he would be a dominating force. Is he good? ya Could he be better? Oh hell ya. A 6'3 hockey player shouldn't be letting up on hits. Sorry I didn't realize Detroits system didn't allow hitting when the other team has the puck... Wow I can't believe you actually said that. Hitting and playing Detroits system are not mutually exclusive whatsoever. And just so you know, Anaheim did exactly what you just said. WCF appearance, a cup and a finals appearance. I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here... We're not talking about his salary, we'ret alking about his play. Is he overpaid? Yeah but not by that much. He is definitely on par with Lilja Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Well Lilja isn't gonna be making much less wherever he goes.He wants top 4 playing time,I doubt he'll be making less than Walker.Walker won't block as many shots as Lilja,but he'll clear the crease more effectively and stick up for his teammates.People who compare the plus minus obviously have no idea how different Tampa and Detroit were last year.Tampa was horrible,so of course the majority of its players aren't gonna have the greatest plus minus.Walker is the definition of what this team needs right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) Well Lilja isn't gonna be making much less wherever he goes.He wants top 4 playing time,I doubt he'll be making less than Walker.Walker won't block as many shots as Lilja,but he'll clear the crease more effectively and stick up for his teammates.People who compare the plus minus obviously have no idea how different Tampa and Detroit were last year.Tampa was horrible,so of course the majority of its players aren't gonna have the greatest plus minus.Walker is the definition of what this team needs right now. This team doesn't NEED anything but better defensive play which isn't going to happen by signing a free agent. Ericsson, Kronwall, and Stuart really need to step up their play because Detroit really suffered defensively and may not be able to rely on their goaltending to win them games. 1.7 million for an "enforcing" defenseman is really not what the team needs. Not by a long shot. And just so you know' date=' Anaheim did exactly what you just said. WCF appearance, a cup and a finals appearance.[/quote']Within what span? With what success in between? Detroit has won with a system. Franzen does not need to be like Shane Doan (who became a liability shortly before his injury in the playoffs) to be effective. And considering his track record in the playoffs you have s*** to say about the way he plays. Edited July 19, 2010 by Doc Holliday Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Simply the style of play that Walker provides is what we need.I agree that we shouldn't be paying anywhere near $1.7 Million for a 6th defenseman.There's still plenty of guys out there that will provide what Walker provides for less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Simply the style of play that Walker provides is what we need.I agree that we shouldn't be paying anywhere near $1.7 Million for a 6th defenseman.There's still plenty of guys out there that will provide what Walker provides for less. Then focus on them. Walker is not what Detroit needs and he is not good enough to be a 3rd pairing defenseman for 1.7 million. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Who do you want to see Kenny sign to replace the great Lilja? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 This team doesn't NEED anything but better defensive play which isn't going to happen by signing a free agent. Ericsson, Kronwall, and Stuart really need to step up their play because Detroit really suffered defensively and may not be able to rely on their goaltending to win them games. 1.7 million for an "enforcing" defenseman is really not what the team needs. Not by a long shot. Within what span? With what success in between? Detroit has won with a system. Franzen does not need to be like Shane Doan (who became a liability shortly before his injury in the playoffs) to be effective. And considering his track record in the playoffs you have s*** to say about the way he plays. The team may not need it but Holland wants another defenseman. The argument isn't really about what the team needs its more about the fact that people here are saying he is a good 4th defenseman for grand rapids etc. The hate for a guy just because he is tough is retarded on this board Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 The team may not need it but Holland wants another defenseman. The argument isn't really about what the team needs its more about the fact that people here are saying he is a good 4th defenseman for grand rapids etc. The hate for a guy just because he is tough is retarded on this board I never said I hate him because he is tough. I don't want him on this team because tough is virtually his only asset available. YOU are one who seems to overrate a player (Steve Downie especially) simply because they can fight or are "tough". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soultrain 43 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 the gagne signing was ******* genius. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jollymania 162 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Who do you want to see Kenny sign to replace the great Lilja? theres not much out there, hnidy, meyer, if a miracle happened, sutton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Andy Sutton (Like you said,if a miracle happens) Nick Boynton Shane Hnidy Garnet Exelby Aaron Johnson Brendan Witt John Erskine (If a miracle happened.He hardly played last year in Washington,maybe he could be traded?) Kevin Bieksa (On his way out of Vancouver,Miller and Ritola for Bieksa ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jollymania 162 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Andy Sutton (Like you said,if a miracle happens) Nick Boynton Shane Hnidy Garnet Exelby Aaron Johnson Brendan Witt John Erskine (If a miracle happened.He hardly played last year in Washington,maybe he could be traded?) Kevin Bieksa (On his way out of Vancouver,Miller and Ritola for Bieksa ) witt might be okay, bieksa is overrated but i'd take him, otherwise the rest of those guys are pretty much the bottom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesusberg 1,256 Report post Posted July 19, 2010 Kind of hard to justify anyone's real "worth considering guys like Boogaard and Campbell can rake in those ridiculous contracts. I was speaking more along the lines of the Red Wings not having enough cap room. I think 1.7 might be a bit much for Walker, but my main point was his cap hit vs. our cap space. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted July 20, 2010 I never said I hate him because he is tough. I don't want him on this team because tough is virtually his only asset available. YOU are one who seems to overrate a player (Steve Downie especially) simply because they can fight or are "tough". Well you say thats his only asset about anyone who has been in a fight before pretty much. His stats are nearly identical to Lilja's but because he can fight really good he's a pylon who should be in Grand Rapids. And Downie is a 22 year old 22 goal scorer who can fight and piss off opponents, do I overrate him? Maybe but thats just because a lot of ppl on this board underrate him. Our board is all goo goo ga ga over Abby but he's older then Downie, Downie hits just as hard and fights just as much and Downie has a 20 goal season and everyone talks about how Abby is gonna be a very solid player. Downie is going to be one of the better power forwards in this league in 3 years, he's already one of the better ones Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 20, 2010 Over 20 goals and over 200 penalty minutes..and he's just getting started..I think he's a big deal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted July 20, 2010 Over 20 goals and over 200 penalty minutes..and he's just getting started..I think he's a big deal. Exactly, if the wings had someone like this he would have a cult following. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted July 20, 2010 He'll definitely score 20 goals again next year and he'll raise just as much,if not more,hell than he did last year.He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted July 20, 2010 He'll definitely score 20 goals again next year and he'll raise just as much,if not more,hell than he did last year.He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. He'll break 50 points next year and probably 25 goals while keeping his PIM and fight cont really high. He's a rare breed but because I would rather have him then Hudler I overrate him.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
