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#41 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 02:47 PM

yeah.... right

Player Team Pos GP Hits BkS MsS GvA TkA FOW FOL Tot FO% %Tm Shots G S%

09-10 Matt Walker TBL D 66 82 116 25 32 10 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 54 2

08-09 Andreas Lilja DET D 60 95 92 25 29 8 0 1 1 0.0 0.0 60 2 3.3

Matt Walker -11
Andreas Lilja +13

Matt walker played for Tampa, Lilja for the Red Wings, youre really going to compare their plus minus? Your stats don't take into account teh fact that Walker is much more effective clearing the net front, a harder hitter, and is probably the second best fighting defenseman in the league behind Carkner.

If Walker came to the wings his stat line would be much better then Liljas, and Lilja isn't even a #6 defenseman

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#42 jollymania

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 02:51 PM

Matt walker played for Tampa, Lilja for the Red Wings, youre really going to compare their plus minus? Your stats don't take into account teh fact that Walker is much more effective clearing the net front, a harder hitter, and is probably the second best fighting defenseman in the league behind Carkner.

If Walker came to the wings his stat line would be much better then Liljas, and Lilja isn't even a #6 defenseman

they were the same, if not worse besides the +/- when he played for the hawks

Lilja is better, just because a guy fights more doesn't make him better, both have had concussion/injury issues

Edited by jollymania, 19 July 2010 - 02:51 PM.

"I assure you the hits along the boards he(Aaron Downey) constantly threw SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SHIFT were far more damaging hits that what Kronwall throws."
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#43 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 02:55 PM

they were the same, if not worse besides the +/- when he played for the hawks

Lilja is better, just because a guy fights more doesn't make him better, both have had concussion issues

Lilja and Walker are very compareable players stats wise now, if Walker had time to refine his game with guys like Lidstrom around him like Lilja did, Walker would be much better.

Have you ever watched Walker play or just look at the statS?

As for the fighting thing, no it doesn't make a player better but it adds a dimension to the team that makes him more valuable then someone who doesn't fight. His toughness makes him more valuable. Do you think Pronger would be considered as good as he is without his net clearing ability and intimidation? No he wouldn't

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#44 jollymania

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 02:59 PM

Lilja and Walker are very compareable players stats wise now, if Walker had time to refine his game with guys like Lidstrom around him like Lilja did, Walker would be much better.

Have you ever watched Walker play or just look at the statS?

As for the fighting thing, no it doesn't make a player better but it adds a dimension to the team that makes him more valuable then someone who doesn't fight. His toughness makes him more valuable. Do you think Pronger would be considered as good as he is without his net clearing ability and intimidation? No he wouldn't

I have seen him play, his best attribute is his fighting and ability to throw the hipcheck, maybe he would progress like lilja did, but then again it is a crapshoot, but he is an incredibly shallow minded player that makes a lot of mistakes (of which stats don't necessarily account for)

Edited by jollymania, 19 July 2010 - 03:02 PM.

"I assure you the hits along the boards he(Aaron Downey) constantly threw SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SHIFT were far more damaging hits that what Kronwall throws."
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#45 Doc Holliday

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:00 PM

Matt walker played for Tampa, Lilja for the Red Wings, youre really going to compare their plus minus? Your stats don't take into account teh fact that Walker is much more effective clearing the net front, a harder hitter, and is probably the second best fighting defenseman in the league behind Carkner.

If Walker came to the wings his stat line would be much better then Liljas, and Lilja isn't even a #6 defenseman


Lilja played as a #6 defenseman because it is hard to beat out Lidstrom-Rafalski and Stuart-Kronwall for a top 4 spot.

Also I wouldn't touch Walker with a 10 foot pole. And Lidstrom is the worst fighting defensman in the league, bigf****** whoop.

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#46 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:11 PM

Lilja played as a #6 defenseman because it is hard to beat out Lidstrom-Rafalski and Stuart-Kronwall for a top 4 spot.

Also I wouldn't touch Walker with a 10 foot pole. And Lidstrom is the worst fighting defensman in the league, bigf****** whoop.

Yeah because I said they have to be tough to be a good defenseman? Being tough is a plus and is a style of play. Lilja attempted to play a tough game, which he did fairly well before the concussion. It just so happens that Walker is tougher.

I never get the hate for tough defenseman on this board. Seriously, its like a defenseman drops the gloves and he's automatically hurting the team, or he's a big hitter so that means he's always going out of position to make hits on the opposing forwards.

Lilja is not anything special as a player and Walker would fill that role perfectly if he were to come here. What does Walker do? Give the puck away too much? Guess what.. Lilja was apt to do that all the time. Everyone talks about how great Lilja is like he will be impossible to replace but really he's your fairly average bottom pairing defender that found a nice role on the PK

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#47 jollymania

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:14 PM

Yeah because I said they have to be tough to be a good defenseman? Being tough is a plus and is a style of play. Lilja attempted to play a tough game, which he did fairly well before the concussion. It just so happens that Walker is tougher.

I never get the hate for tough defenseman on this board. Seriously, its like a defenseman drops the gloves and he's automatically hurting the team, or he's a big hitter so that means he's always going out of position to make hits on the opposing forwards.

Lilja is not anything special as a player and Walker would fill that role perfectly if he were to come here. What does Walker do? Give the puck away too much? Guess what.. Lilja was apt to do that all the time. Everyone talks about how great Lilja is like he will be impossible to replace but really he's your fairly average bottom pairing defender that found a nice role on the PK

it has nothing to do with tough defenseman it has to do with walker being a terrible player
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#48 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:23 PM

it has nothing to do with tough defenseman it has to do with walker being a terrible player

No it has to do with the fact that whenever a tough Defenseman is brought up as an acceptable replacement for Lilja, he automatically becomes a terrible player. Walker is not so bad that he couldn't replace Lilja.

Look at the stats, Walker had less hits but he is a more punishing player infront of the net, in the corners and has more power behind his hits, Walker has more blocked shots, give aways are the same with Walker playing more games and this is all compared to pre-consussion Lilja. The stats are pretty much the same except plus minus which is caused by a bad team around Walker.

Then take into account that Walker is one of the best fighting defenseman in the league and you come to the conclusion that he is definitely a good replacement for Lilja

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#49 mjlegend

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:24 PM

it has nothing to do with tough defenseman it has to do with walker being a terrible player


Some people on the board think that anyone who fights is elevated to godlike genius, and anyone who doesn't fight (Franzen) is a Europuss. They'll never look past the fighting because that's all they see. Truthfully, he's a $1.625 million liability every time he steps on the ice for the next three years for Philly.

This is a horrible deal for Philly, but it was the best one on the table and one they had to take given their cap situation. Normally they were able to hide salary and shift guys on and off LTIR but they're clearly out of options if Gagne is healthy.

But, wow. Stamkos, Gagne, St. Louis, Lecavalier... that's the beginnings of a good, top-five offense in the NHL. A couple more 20-goal guys develop and they're right up there with Pittsburgh at forward. Defense is still a problem, but it was also a problem with Walker there.

#50 jollymania

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:27 PM

No it has to do with the fact that whenever a tough Defenseman is brought up as an acceptable replacement for Lilja, he automatically becomes a terrible player. Walker is not so bad that he couldn't replace Lilja.

Look at the stats, Walker had less hits but he is a more punishing player infront of the net, in the corners and has more power behind his hits, Walker has more blocked shots, give aways are the same with Walker playing more games and this is all compared to pre-consussion Lilja. The stats are pretty much the same except plus minus which is caused by a bad team around Walker.

Then take into account that Walker is one of the best fighting defenseman in the league and you come to the conclusion that he is definitely a good replacement for Lilja

I don't think so, he and if he is he is on the extreme low end of what kenny would want
"I assure you the hits along the boards he(Aaron Downey) constantly threw SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SHIFT were far more damaging hits that what Kronwall throws."
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#51 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:34 PM

Some people on the board think that anyone who fights is elevated to godlike genius, and anyone who doesn't fight (Franzen) is a Europuss. They'll never look past the fighting because that's all they see. Truthfully, he's a $1.625 million liability every time he steps on the ice for the next three years for Philly.

This is a horrible deal for Philly, but it was the best one on the table and one they had to take given their cap situation. Normally they were able to hide salary and shift guys on and off LTIR but they're clearly out of options if Gagne is healthy.

But, wow. Stamkos, Gagne, St. Louis, Lecavalier... that's the beginnings of a good, top-five offense in the NHL. A couple more 20-goal guys develop and they're right up there with Pittsburgh at forward. Defense is still a problem, but it was also a problem with Walker there.

And then theres the others on this board who think anyone who fights is just a goon that can't play hockey. You seem to fall into that category because youre clearly ignoring the stats.

So youre saying Lilja was a 1.25 million dollar liability every time he steps on the ice for Detroit?

And by the way, Franzen doesn't even hit so yeah he is a *****. You'll never see me call Stuart a ***** or Kronwall, but Franzen yes big time.

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#52 mjlegend

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 04:52 PM

There is a difference between a defensively reliable, net-clearing shot-blocking defenceman and a plug with skates like Walker. How he ever signed a 4-year, $6.8 million deal with the Lightning last summer is a testament to Brian Lawton's complete lack of GM intelligence. He's probably a good #4 defenceman on GR.

The day the Wings pay a #6-7 defenceman $1.6 million/year is the day the salary cap is at $70 million.

#53 Doc Holliday

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 04:53 PM

Yeah because I said they have to be tough to be a good defenseman? Being tough is a plus and is a style of play. Lilja attempted to play a tough game, which he did fairly well before the concussion. It just so happens that Walker is tougher.


And just because he is a great fighter doesn't make him any better at defense. The guy is a pylon who can fight. Big deal.

I never get the hate for tough defenseman on this board. Seriously, its like a defenseman drops the gloves and he's automatically hurting the team, or he's a big hitter so that means he's always going out of position to make hits on the opposing forwards.


No, I'm just pointing out that fighting+toughness=/=good valuable hockey player. Every single compliment to player from you deals with their tenacity, toughness, or fighting ability, and it is quite silly.

Lilja is not anything special as a player and Walker would fill that role perfectly if he were to come here. What does Walker do? Give the puck away too much? Guess what.. Lilja was apt to do that all the time. Everyone talks about how great Lilja is like he will be impossible to replace but really he's your fairly average bottom pairing defender that found a nice role on the PK


Lilja was one of Detroit's best PK defensemen and did very well for himself on even strength when he came back.

Either way Lilja isn't coming back and I don't see how bringing in Walker helps the team at all.

I mean, you give Franzen s*** for being a top 6 forward who doesn't hit often. Considering his injury history I don't see why you make the ridiculous assertion that Franzen would provide more by hitting instead of playing into the system that has won Detroit a cup, a WCF appearance, and a SCF appearance. How many "tough" teams have done more?

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#54 Jesusberg

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:00 PM

I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here...

#55 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:01 PM

For a #6 defenseman,Matt Walker is a hell of a lot more useful than Lilja.Come on now.
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#56 HankthaTank

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:02 PM

I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here...

Kind of hard to justify anyone's real "worth considering guys like Boogaard and Campbell can rake in those ridiculous contracts.

Edited by HankthaTank, 19 July 2010 - 05:02 PM.

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#57 Doc Holliday

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:02 PM

For a #6 defenseman,Matt Walker is a hell of a lot more useful than Lilja.Come on now.


Yeah especially for that 1.7 million cap hit. What a steal for a mediocre defensive player who can fight great.

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#58 newfy

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:04 PM

And just because he is a great fighter doesn't make him any better at defense. The guy is a pylon who can fight. Big deal.



No, I'm just pointing out that fighting+toughness=/=good valuable hockey player. Every single compliment to player from you deals with their tenacity, toughness, or fighting ability, and it is quite silly.



Lilja was one of Detroit's best PK defensemen and did very well for himself on even strength when he came back.

Either way Lilja isn't coming back and I don't see how bringing in Walker helps the team at all.

I mean, you give Franzen s*** for being a top 6 forward who doesn't hit often. Considering his injury history I don't see why you make the ridiculous assertion that Franzen would provide more by hitting instead of playing into the system that has won Detroit a cup, a WCF appearance, and a SCF appearance. How many "tough" teams have done more?

No he isn't a pylon thats the thing. The fact that he can fihgt makes posters like you say he is.

I never said fighting equals good or valuable. I said be able to fight is a plus for sure. If 2 guys are the same skill level obviously the guy who can fight is going to be a more valuable player. Thats why Lucic is making 4 million bucks a season already when he has only ever scored 17 goals.

I compliment guys toughness when they are tough. I compliment Datsyuk for having the best hands in the league and I will give compliments where they are deserved. Its quite silly how you don't seem to think grit and tenacity are part of the game really?

Yes I give Franzen s*** for not laying the body because if he did he would be a dominating force. Is he good? ya Could he be better? Oh hell ya. A 6'3 hockey player shouldn't be letting up on hits. Sorry I didn't realize Detroits system didn't allow hitting when the other team has the puck... Wow I can't believe you actually said that. Hitting and playing Detroits system are not mutually exclusive whatsoever.

And just so you know, Anaheim did exactly what you just said. WCF appearance, a cup and a finals appearance.

I think Matt Walker earning 1.7 million for the next 3 years should kind of put an end to him being so great here...

We're not talking about his salary, we'ret alking about his play. Is he overpaid? Yeah but not by that much. He is definitely on par with Lilja

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#59 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:23 PM

Well Lilja isn't gonna be making much less wherever he goes.He wants top 4 playing time,I doubt he'll be making less than Walker.Walker won't block as many shots as Lilja,but he'll clear the crease more effectively and stick up for his teammates.People who compare the plus minus obviously have no idea how different Tampa and Detroit were last year.Tampa was horrible,so of course the majority of its players aren't gonna have the greatest plus minus.Walker is the definition of what this team needs right now.
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#60 Doc Holliday

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:27 PM

Well Lilja isn't gonna be making much less wherever he goes.He wants top 4 playing time,I doubt he'll be making less than Walker.Walker won't block as many shots as Lilja,but he'll clear the crease more effectively and stick up for his teammates.People who compare the plus minus obviously have no idea how different Tampa and Detroit were last year.Tampa was horrible,so of course the majority of its players aren't gonna have the greatest plus minus.Walker is the definition of what this team needs right now.


This team doesn't NEED anything but better defensive play which isn't going to happen by signing a free agent. Ericsson, Kronwall, and Stuart really need to step up their play because Detroit really suffered defensively and may not be able to rely on their goaltending to win them games.

1.7 million for an "enforcing" defenseman is really not what the team needs. Not by a long shot.

And just so you know, Anaheim did exactly what you just said. WCF appearance, a cup and a finals appearance.


Within what span? With what success in between?

Detroit has won with a system. Franzen does not need to be like Shane Doan (who became a liability shortly before his injury in the playoffs) to be effective. And considering his track record in the playoffs you have s*** to say about the way he plays.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 19 July 2010 - 05:36 PM.

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