How much production do you expect from Hudler?

[Superman54 91]

I always thought Huds made Helm better, so just have him on the fourth line.

[Shaman 713]

Hudler laughs at you lack of faith.

[titanium2 867]

Z wasn't primarily on the 2nd PP that year-- he was playing with Datsyuk on the 1st PP.

Yes he was.

28.51% PP 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - 40 ZETTERBERG,HENRIK

12.51% PP 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 81 HOSSA,MARIAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

9.62% PP 51 FILPPULA,VALTTERI - 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?selForward=DETHUDLER%2CJIRI&period=ALL&situation=PP&games=2008-2009%3AR%3A99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

Z wasn't primarily on the 2nd PP that year-- he was playing with Datsyuk on the 1st PP.

The 2nd PP looks superior. His theoretical linemates on the 3rd look a bit worse (although Modano is a better playmaker than Filppula and is a superior shooter). However, the only way Hudler stays permanently on the 3rd line is if Bertuzzi outperforms him offensively (unlikely based on the current decade). Hudler will float between the 2nd and 3rd line just like he always has. Assuming he'll regress to his sophomore level is just foolish.

It's Mike Babcock and the year is 2010. The idea that lines are fixed unless players get injured is 1990's coaching.

Of course lines change around a lot. Yet at the end of the year players have certain lines that they plan on for more time than other lines.

15.78% EV 51 FILPPULA,VALTTERI - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

13.37% EV 51 FILPPULA,VALTTERI - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 82 KOPECKY,TOMAS

10.72% EV 11 CLEARY,DANIEL - 51 FILPPULA,VALTTERI - 26 HUDLER,JIRI

10.72% EV 43 HELM,DARREN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

This upcoming team is not as skilled or talented as the 08-09 team. That in addition to the way Babs has treated Hudler in the past I'd like to make safer predictions and expectations for his production. Anything above the high forties would be bonus for me.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

This upcoming team is not as skilled or talented as the 08-09 team.

That would seem to help Hudler individually in terms of production rather than harm. It's hard to get into that top six when he needed to outplay a guy like Hossa to get there. Hossa is gone now and the guy in his place is, what, Bertuzzi?

That in addition to the way Babs has treated Hudler in the past I'd like to make safer predictions and expectations for his production.

This is possibly a concern though. It might be the case that he puts Hudler on the third line in order to spread out the scoring depth a bit. Ultimately everyone will end up playing with everyone, and whichever lines click the best will be the go-to lines; so whatever happens as long as we get the best lines to help the team win, it works for me.

[eva unit zero 271]

...you voted 7 times from a nice breakout pass?

I was referring more to the fact that Hudler got in behind the defense, and when Robidas was slashing him on the elbow he turned away and put a no-look backhander top-shelf.

But feel free to ignore that part of the video.

[Opie 308]

I put 40-50 because I think there will be an adjustment to the size of the ice surface.

I also think Hudler will feel a need to prove himself, to prove that he is still a Red Wing.

Not saying I feel he does, because I have no problem with him spending the year in the KHL, it was the only way he was not wearing another uni in the NHL.

I don't think he will jump right in and start scoring tons.

He will have new linemates which also takes an adjustment period.

I think next year is the year he puts up his best season in the NHL.

EDIT: Also the Wings are not the same team that he put up 57 points on, he will be relied on, counted on to score. Dan CLeary is not what he was 2 seasons ago (injuries or whatever facts are facts) Flip is better but I don't think they will be on the same line, though I think they should.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Opie

[St. Michael (the Red Wing) 422]

Bad feeling that he is going to be a bust for us next season. I hope I'm wrong. I'll be nice and say around 40 points for him. : ) I just think leaving for the KHL was a big mistake and now coming back. Dare I say TRADE him if he doesn't produce. I'd bet there be some takers....

[VM1138 1,921]

50-60 points. I know Babs wants 70 from him, but I think that's too much to expect from him after playing in Russia. No doubt there will be an adjustment period as Hudler adapts to the NHL again. That and playing with new teammates. Like most "new" players it'll probably take him a few months to get going. I can see 70-80 points in 2011-2012, but not next season.

[ShanahanMan 473]

I'd call the season a success for him if he manages to pull 40 points. You have to remember that he had ONE season where he totaled more then 50 points, and that was with playoffs combined. He's been out of the NHL mix now for a year and it will probably take time to re-adjust. He's a sharp little guy, but he isn't gonna make or break a season.

[Casey 145]

If he's on a line with Modano and Cleary, I can see 60 quite easily.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

I'd call the season a success for him if he manages to pull 40 points. You have to remember that he had ONE season where he totaled more then 50 points, and that was with playoffs combined. He's been out of the NHL mix now for a year and it will probably take time to re-adjust. He's a sharp little guy, but he isn't gonna make or break a season.

Actually with "playoffs combined" he has had two 50 point seasons.

07-08 Regular Season: 42 Points. 07-08 Cup Run: 14 Points. 42 + 14 = 56

56>50

08-09 Regular Season: 57 Points (OMFG ALREADY MORE THEN 50 NO PLAYOFFS NEEDED)

Considering that those were 2 of his first 3 years in the league, at the ages of 23-25 and was mainly playing 3rd line minutes, those are actually fairly impressive numbers. In 08-09 regular season he was top 20 in League Scoring in Total TOI, ahead of players as Zetterberg and Franzen.

People need to stive their hatred for Hudler away. He may be greedy, he may even be one-dimensional*, but he can score.

*Note, I don't nessasarily think he is greedy or one-dimesnional, but many on here do, and I can understand their reasoning.

Edited July 7, 2010 by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

[Slave 31]

73 points + 7 shootout goals

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Yes he was.

28.51% PP 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - 40 ZETTERBERG,HENRIK

12.51% PP 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 81 HOSSA,MARIAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

9.62% PP 51 FILPPULA,VALTTERI - 93 FRANZEN,JOHAN - 26 HUDLER,JIRI - 37 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL

So you're saying that 71.49% of the time he was on the PP it wasn't with the combo of Franzen, Sammy and Zetterberg?

Thanks for proving my point.

I find it pretty preposterous that a player who is just entering his prime is going to regress to sophomore numbers based on the fact that Samuelsson and Hossa no longer play on the team. You're not giving Hudler any credit here-- he doesn't mooch off the offensive creativity of other players. Hudler has better hands than any forward on the team not named Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Franzen (although his playmaking ability is certainly better than Franzen's).

[titanium2 867]

So you're saying that 71.49% of the time he was on the PP it wasn't with the combo of Franzen, Sammy and Zetterberg?

Thanks for proving my point.

I find it pretty preposterous that a player who is just entering his prime is going to regress to sophomore numbers based on the fact that Samuelsson and Hossa no longer play on the team. You're not giving Hudler any credit here-- he doesn't mooch off the offensive creativity of other players. Hudler has better hands than any forward on the team not named Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Franzen (although his playmaking ability is certainly better than Franzen's).

Haha. Dude come on. You know better how to read off dobberhockey than that.

[Zeowingsfan 16]

I'd call the season a success for him if he manages to pull 40 points. You have to remember that he had ONE season where he totaled more then 50 points, and that was with playoffs combined. He's been out of the NHL mix now for a year and it will probably take time to re-adjust. He's a sharp little guy, but he isn't gonna make or break a season.

You seem to be thinking that he left right after we won the cup which is the year he did put up 56 points in the regular season and playoffs combined. in the 2008-2009 season Hudler had 57 points in the regular season and 12 points in the playoffs. So more then one season of 50+ points in a regular season and playoffs.

[Z and D for the C 712]

73 points + 7 shootout goals

I hope we don't get that many shootouts.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Z and D for the C 712]

So you're saying that 71.49% of the time he was on the PP it wasn't with the combo of Franzen, Sammy and Zetterberg?

74.51% of the time he played on the PP with either Zetterberg, Hossa or Datsyuk. 46% with Zetterberg.

[egroen 384]

He made a dangerous scoring line playing with Helm and McCarty - I think he can manage with whatever linemates he ends up with this year.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

Looking like a lot of people overrated him.

In my opinion, he doesn't fit on this team. Not that he can't play, but he no longer meshes with the team roster.

[eva unit zero 271]

Looking like a lot of people overrated him.

In my opinion, he doesn't fit on this team. Not that he can't play, but he no longer meshes with the team roster.

He doesn't mesh with Modano. I've gone over this in depth. Modano and Cleary fit well together because of their speed, and because Cleary's natural style is to pick up rebounds, which Modano might produce more of than anyone else on the team. Modano and Hudler don't work because of the speed difference, and because Modano is big on keeping the puck through the neutral zone while Hudler's style is about puck movement. In the offensive zone Modano's style is to put the puck on net any chance he sees, while Hudler's is a much more patient style.

As I have said a hundred times, Hudler and Flip complement each other greatly. Flip is an excellent puckhandler who has a similar, patient mind in the offensive zone and allows Hudler to excel, and Hudler's offensive talents have been shown over and over in the past to bring out the best offensive ability in Flip.

Why you WOULDN'T put them together is the bigger question. It's not a Dats/Z situation where you are questioning whether you have to have them split up...they simply should be together. And that's it.

[Shady Ultima 40]

You realize he HAS been playing with Fil and Franzen and has still been terrible?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Looking like a lot of people overrated him.

In my opinion, he doesn't fit on this team. Not that he can't play, but he no longer meshes with the team roster.

Because Wings fans never overrate their prospects based on past performance?

What a stupid bump. As if we need more Hudler threads on the front page.

[truebladearmy 33]

He doesn't mesh with Modano. I've gone over this in depth. Modano and Cleary fit well together because of their speed, and because Cleary's natural style is to pick up rebounds, which Modano might produce more of than anyone else on the team. Modano and Hudler don't work because of the speed difference, and because Modano is big on keeping the puck through the neutral zone while Hudler's style is about puck movement. In the offensive zone Modano's style is to put the puck on net any chance he sees, while Hudler's is a much more patient style.

As I have said a hundred times, Hudler and Flip complement each other greatly. Flip is an excellent puckhandler who has a similar, patient mind in the offensive zone and allows Hudler to excel, and Hudler's offensive talents have been shown over and over in the past to bring out the best offensive ability in Flip.

Why you WOULDN'T put them together is the bigger question. It's not a Dats/Z situation where you are questioning whether you have to have them split up...they simply should be together. And that's it.

I'm all for theories on how to make people produce, but the question isn't "Will Hudler Produce more if he is on a line with Flip". The question is, "Who will produce the best on a line with Flip?"

Are you honestly telling me that our highest plus/minus player (Bert), and our leading Goal Scorer (Mule), should go down to the third line so Hudler can play on the second line instead? The second line currently has about 17 goals in 19 games (Based on the three forwards who usually play it, not including defensive contribution). Hudler has 1 goal in 16 games.

To an extent, you juggle people around to see if they will mesh with another player, but you do not break-up a very productive line just to "See" what will happen.

In the real hockey world, here is how it "really" works:

1) You play 3rd or 4th line time. If you excel on those lines (Hudler has not), then you vie for a spot on the 2nd line.

2) In order to qualify for a spot on the second line, you generally have to produce equal to or greater than someone already on the second line. (Hudler has not, not even close).

3) If you have a little freedom, you juggle things a bit (Babcock did). If you find chemistry great, if not, you try it for a few games and then go back to what worked. (Hudler failed when he was juggled, too).

4) If you do not crack the third line, but stay on par for 3rd or 4th line (Hudler currently, is not), you go back to those lines.

5) If you have minor league players schooling you nightly (Hudler does), you go sit on the bench.

6) Twiddle your thumbs, until an injury or a slumping player arises. Get a second chance. (Hudler is here now).

Your bias toward Hudler has you thinking not in terms of what is best for the team, but in what is best for Hudler. It's very simple: If Hudler is not the best for this team, we cannot keep making changes to find what is best for Hudler. If a quarter of a season isn't enough for him to find a working line-mate, juggling him some more is just pissing in the wind.

Who is Hudler currently better than? Abdelkader? Abbey is beating him in points with less games played, can lay out hits, agitate, fight, and works hard every single shift. We will see Abbey on the second line before we see Hudler there.

Modano? When it comes to leadership, Hudler would get schooled by Modano. When it comes to puck possession, Hudler is craftier, but Modano can take a hit and not flop out of the play. He, also, is outscoring Hudler at the age of 40.

Cleary? Our other leading goal scorer?

Hudler doesn't have a spot on the 1st line obviously. He can't really fill Flips spot, and I wouldn't want him on the second line over Bertuzzi or Mule on any night.

What about the fourth line?

Miller-Helm-Eaves Both Miller and Eaves are bringing just as much offensive contribution as Hudler has brought. Unlike Miller, Helm, and eaves, Hudler is not a Penalty Killer. Your fourth line is largely used in penalty kills, so anyone who is on it needs to be good at Penalty killing. Hudler is not. Helm is invaluable for his PK experience, and this fourth line of ours goes toe to toe with any other 4th line in the league, no problem. You simply cannot put Hudler on this line. This line has a purpose, and the additional tasking of providing penalty killers. You can't just squeeze Hudler into a line that is designed to play completely the opposite of Hudler's play style.

So where exactly does Hudler fit in? Who do you bench for Hudler? Who do you juggle? How do you justify taking someone who is producing (See all 12 forwards, except Hudler), and replacing one of them? Why take either our leading goal scorer, or leading +/- guy off a line with Flip, to "test" out Hudler. Sure, if Bert of Franzen were sucking too, I'd be all for it.

But that's the point. Hudler is sucking. They are not.

[Shaman 713]

I'm all for theories on how to make people produce, but the question isn't "Will Hudler Produce more if he is on a line with Flip". The question is, "Who will produce the best on a line with Flip?"

Are you honestly telling me that our highest plus/minus player (Bert), and our leading Goal Scorer (Mule), should go down to the third line so Hudler can play on the second line instead? The second line currently has about 17 goals in 19 games (Based on the three forwards who usually play it, not including defensive contribution). Hudler has 1 goal in 16 games.

To an extent, you juggle people around to see if they will mesh with another player, but you do not break-up a very productive line just to "See" what will happen.

In the real hockey world, here is how it "really" works:

1) You play 3rd or 4th line time. If you excel on those lines (Hudler has not), then you vie for a spot on the 2nd line.

2) In order to qualify for a spot on the second line, you generally have to produce equal to or greater than someone already on the second line. (Hudler has not, not even close).

3) If you have a little freedom, you juggle things a bit (Babcock did). If you find chemistry great, if not, you try it for a few games and then go back to what worked. (Hudler failed when he was juggled, too).

4) If you do not crack the third line, but stay on par for 3rd or 4th line (Hudler currently, is not), you go back to those lines.

5) If you have minor league players schooling you nightly (Hudler does), you go sit on the bench.

6) Twiddle your thumbs, until an injury or a slumping player arises. Get a second chance. (Hudler is here now).

Your bias toward Hudler has you thinking not in terms of what is best for the team, but in what is best for Hudler. It's very simple: If Hudler is not the best for this team, we cannot keep making changes to find what is best for Hudler. If a quarter of a season isn't enough for him to find a working line-mate, juggling him some more is just pissing in the wind.

Who is Hudler currently better than? Abdelkader? Abbey is beating him in points with less games played, can lay out hits, agitate, fight, and works hard every single shift. We will see Abbey on the second line before we see Hudler there.

Modano? When it comes to leadership, Hudler would get schooled by Modano. When it comes to puck possession, Hudler is craftier, but Modano can take a hit and not flop out of the play. He, also, is outscoring Hudler at the age of 40.

Cleary? Our other leading goal scorer?

Hudler doesn't have a spot on the 1st line obviously. He can't really fill Flips spot, and I wouldn't want him on the second line over Bertuzzi or Mule on any night.

What about the fourth line?

Miller-Helm-Eaves Both Miller and Eaves are bringing just as much offensive contribution as Hudler has brought. Unlike Miller, Helm, and eaves, Hudler is not a Penalty Killer. Your fourth line is largely used in penalty kills, so anyone who is on it needs to be good at Penalty killing. Hudler is not. Helm is invaluable for his PK experience, and this fourth line of ours goes toe to toe with any other 4th line in the league, no problem. You simply cannot put Hudler on this line. This line has a purpose, and the additional tasking of providing penalty killers. You can't just squeeze Hudler into a line that is designed to play completely the opposite of Hudler's play style.

So where exactly does Hudler fit in? Who do you bench for Hudler? Who do you juggle? How do you justify taking someone who is producing (See all 12 forwards, except Hudler), and replacing one of them? Why take either our leading goal scorer, or leading +/- guy off a line with Flip, to "test" out Hudler. Sure, if Bert of Franzen were sucking too, I'd be all for it.

But that's the point. Hudler is sucking. They are not.

Its not like Flip is having a breakout season everyone on here keeps swearing hes on the cusp off.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Shaman464