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#41 dragonballgtz

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:24 PM

Phoenix is a brand new market, and the team has been AWFUL all 14 years.

I wouldn't say all 14 years. First 4 seasons they made the playoffs but got knocked out in the 1st round by Red Wings, Avs, Blues, and Ducks. Besides the Ducks those were the top teams in the west during those days. Phoenix was never elite but decent...so getting off to a start like that they should of gotten more attention but didn't.

#42 stevkrause

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:26 PM

I wouldn't say all 14 years. First 4 seasons they made the playoffs but got knocked out in the 1st round by Red Wings, Avs, Blues, and Ducks. Besides the Ducks those were the top teams in the west during those days. Phoenix was never elite but decent...so getting off to a start like that they should of gotten more attention but didn't.

ding. ding. ding.

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#43 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:44 PM

didnt they GM's/Owners all just vote not to long ago ? and majority wanted him to stay, I agree Buttman is just business Chirelli would be a perfect Commish !
guy is a genious, seriously i think he is guy has a degree from Harvard graduated with honors a degree from university of Ottawa in Law. We need a guy that knows Hockey and the Business side of things.


bettman's only degree is in drama. next commissioner please.

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#44 Kira

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:50 PM

That little bastard should be paying us to keep his job.
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#45 eva unit zero

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:44 AM

Phoenix has never been great for attendance nor have they had great success.

But this season is only the third time in the Coyotes' 13-season history that the team has averaged below 13,500 in attendance. Sure, that's not a terribly high number compared to teams like the Wings, Rangers, Canadiens, or Leafs. But for comparison? The Jets played 17 NHL seasons and only averaged ABOVE 13,500 in attendance twice.

So overall, the franchise has played 30 NHL seasons, averaging above 13,500 in attendance 12 times. Ten of those times were after the team relocated to Phoenix. Before the 1979 merger, the Jets never cleared 9,500.

So the Coyotes have had significantly more success drawing fans. As far as success, the Jets made the playoffs eleven times in 17 seasons. The Coyotes have made the playoffs six times in 13 seasons. Total playoff record for the teams is Jets 19-42 (.311), Coyotes 13-24 (.351) so as you can see, the Coyotes have also been more successful in the postseason. The Jets' regular season winning percentage is .442, which is pretty terrible. The Coyotes, OTOH, come out at .485, if you factor all shootouts as ties, and take away the extra point for non-shootout OTLs.

They haven't had a great team, but they have still provided better support than Winnipeg. Canadians like to push the "Put a team anywhere in Canada and it will be sold out every night." line. The Jets never managed that. They probably would the first couple seasons if they got a team back, but who knows what happens after that? Ottawa? Winnipeg? Vancouver? Quebec? Montreal and Toronto, sure. They've been around for 100 years and have fan bases that have been passed down through generations. The Nucks, Sens, Jets, and Nords aren't/weren't even as old as a large number, if not majority when the Nords and Jets moved, of fans of the Leafs and Habs. The Sens haven't even been around as long as 75-80% or more of Leafs or Habs fans.

And I will say it again: relocating a team is not Bettman saying "You know what, let's take this team and move it." It is the owner of the team deciding to move the team to another location. This is usually the result of a sale. The Jets, Nordiques, and Whalers were sold because they were hemorrhaging money worse than the Coyotes are. The new owners already had destinations in mind, and because they followed the proper procedures for purchasing and relocating a team, there were no problems with the sales or the relocating. Expansion is a similar process. Bettman does not decide "Let's place teams in these cities" but rather the league decides to expand by a number of teams, and seeks bidders for those teams. They decide based on financial stability of the market and the bidder, proximity to other markets, and how well the bidder would serve the BoG, among other things.

Of course then there is the unusual situation which happened in 1991. The Gund brothers had owned the California Seals, which eventually moved to Cleveland. The Cleveland franchise was failing financially, as were the North Stars, due to both teams having little on-ice success. As the North Stars were put up for sale, the league allowed the Gunds to purchase the North Stars and merge the two clubs in 1979, forming a much deeper and more successful franchise, which would reach the Finals in 1981.
In 1991, a group led by Howard Baldwin was seeking an expansion franchise in the Bay Area. After again suffering financial difficulty, the Gunds asked the league for permission to transfer the team to the Bay Area. The league sought a compromise; the Gunds would receive the Bay Area expansion team, in exchange for selling the Stars to Baldwin's group, which in the final moments of the negotiations would see a 51% majority share bought out by Norm Green. A dispersal draft between the two clubs was held, followed by an expansion draft in which both teams would select players from other teams around the league to fill out their rosters. To my knowledge, this is the only situation of this sort where two teams merged and then split apart again; as the Sharks are basically the successors to the California Seals.

/random rambling

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#46 Majsheppard

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:00 AM

Phoenix has never been great for attendance nor have they had great success.

But this season is only the third time in the Coyotes' 13-season history that the team has averaged below 13,500 in attendance. Sure, that's not a terribly high number compared to teams like the Wings, Rangers, Canadiens, or Leafs. But for comparison? The Jets played 17 NHL seasons and only averaged ABOVE 13,500 in attendance twice.

So overall, the franchise has played 30 NHL seasons, averaging above 13,500 in attendance 12 times. Ten of those times were after the team relocated to Phoenix. Before the 1979 merger, the Jets never cleared 9,500.

So the Coyotes have had significantly more success drawing fans. As far as success, the Jets made the playoffs eleven times in 17 seasons. The Coyotes have made the playoffs six times in 13 seasons. Total playoff record for the teams is Jets 19-42 (.311), Coyotes 13-24 (.351) so as you can see, the Coyotes have also been more successful in the postseason. The Jets' regular season winning percentage is .442, which is pretty terrible. The Coyotes, OTOH, come out at .485, if you factor all shootouts as ties, and take away the extra point for non-shootout OTLs.

They haven't had a great team, but they have still provided better support than Winnipeg. Canadians like to push the "Put a team anywhere in Canada and it will be sold out every night." line. The Jets never managed that. They probably would the first couple seasons if they got a team back, but who knows what happens after that? Ottawa? Winnipeg? Vancouver? Quebec? Montreal and Toronto, sure. They've been around for 100 years and have fan bases that have been passed down through generations. The Nucks, Sens, Jets, and Nords aren't/weren't even as old as a large number, if not majority when the Nords and Jets moved, of fans of the Leafs and Habs. The Sens haven't even been around as long as 75-80% or more of Leafs or Habs fans.

And I will say it again: relocating a team is not Bettman saying "You know what, let's take this team and move it." It is the owner of the team deciding to move the team to another location. This is usually the result of a sale. The Jets, Nordiques, and Whalers were sold because they were hemorrhaging money worse than the Coyotes are. The new owners already had destinations in mind, and because they followed the proper procedures for purchasing and relocating a team, there were no problems with the sales or the relocating. Expansion is a similar process. Bettman does not decide "Let's place teams in these cities" but rather the league decides to expand by a number of teams, and seeks bidders for those teams. They decide based on financial stability of the market and the bidder, proximity to other markets, and how well the bidder would serve the BoG, among other things.

Of course then there is the unusual situation which happened in 1991. The Gund brothers had owned the California Seals, which eventually moved to Cleveland. The Cleveland franchise was failing financially, as were the North Stars, due to both teams having little on-ice success. As the North Stars were put up for sale, the league allowed the Gunds to purchase the North Stars and merge the two clubs in 1979, forming a much deeper and more successful franchise, which would reach the Finals in 1981.
In 1991, a group led by Howard Baldwin was seeking an expansion franchise in the Bay Area. After again suffering financial difficulty, the Gunds asked the league for permission to transfer the team to the Bay Area. The league sought a compromise; the Gunds would receive the Bay Area expansion team, in exchange for selling the Stars to Baldwin's group, which in the final moments of the negotiations would see a 51% majority share bought out by Norm Green. A dispersal draft between the two clubs was held, followed by an expansion draft in which both teams would select players from other teams around the league to fill out their rosters. To my knowledge, this is the only situation of this sort where two teams merged and then split apart again; as the Sharks are basically the successors to the California Seals.

/random rambling



Best post ever man. Keep up the random ramblings.
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Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#47 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:13 PM

Phoenix has never been great for attendance nor have they had great success.

But this season is only the third time in the Coyotes' 13-season history that the team has averaged below 13,500 in attendance. Sure, that's not a terribly high number compared to teams like the Wings, Rangers, Canadiens, or Leafs. But for comparison? The Jets played 17 NHL seasons and only averaged ABOVE 13,500 in attendance twice.

So overall, the franchise has played 30 NHL seasons, averaging above 13,500 in attendance 12 times. Ten of those times were after the team relocated to Phoenix. Before the 1979 merger, the Jets never cleared 9,500.

So the Coyotes have had significantly more success drawing fans. As far as success, the Jets made the playoffs eleven times in 17 seasons. The Coyotes have made the playoffs six times in 13 seasons. Total playoff record for the teams is Jets 19-42 (.311), Coyotes 13-24 (.351) so as you can see, the Coyotes have also been more successful in the postseason. The Jets' regular season winning percentage is .442, which is pretty terrible. The Coyotes, OTOH, come out at .485, if you factor all shootouts as ties, and take away the extra point for non-shootout OTLs.

They haven't had a great team, but they have still provided better support than Winnipeg. Canadians like to push the "Put a team anywhere in Canada and it will be sold out every night." line. The Jets never managed that. They probably would the first couple seasons if they got a team back, but who knows what happens after that? Ottawa? Winnipeg? Vancouver? Quebec? Montreal and Toronto, sure. They've been around for 100 years and have fan bases that have been passed down through generations. The Nucks, Sens, Jets, and Nords aren't/weren't even as old as a large number, if not majority when the Nords and Jets moved, of fans of the Leafs and Habs. The Sens haven't even been around as long as 75-80% or more of Leafs or Habs fans.

And I will say it again: relocating a team is not Bettman saying "You know what, let's take this team and move it." It is the owner of the team deciding to move the team to another location. This is usually the result of a sale. The Jets, Nordiques, and Whalers were sold because they were hemorrhaging money worse than the Coyotes are. The new owners already had destinations in mind, and because they followed the proper procedures for purchasing and relocating a team, there were no problems with the sales or the relocating. Expansion is a similar process. Bettman does not decide "Let's place teams in these cities" but rather the league decides to expand by a number of teams, and seeks bidders for those teams. They decide based on financial stability of the market and the bidder, proximity to other markets, and how well the bidder would serve the BoG, among other things.

Of course then there is the unusual situation which happened in 1991. The Gund brothers had owned the California Seals, which eventually moved to Cleveland. The Cleveland franchise was failing financially, as were the North Stars, due to both teams having little on-ice success. As the North Stars were put up for sale, the league allowed the Gunds to purchase the North Stars and merge the two clubs in 1979, forming a much deeper and more successful franchise, which would reach the Finals in 1981.
In 1991, a group led by Howard Baldwin was seeking an expansion franchise in the Bay Area. After again suffering financial difficulty, the Gunds asked the league for permission to transfer the team to the Bay Area. The league sought a compromise; the Gunds would receive the Bay Area expansion team, in exchange for selling the Stars to Baldwin's group, which in the final moments of the negotiations would see a 51% majority share bought out by Norm Green. A dispersal draft between the two clubs was held, followed by an expansion draft in which both teams would select players from other teams around the league to fill out their rosters. To my knowledge, this is the only situation of this sort where two teams merged and then split apart again; as the Sharks are basically the successors to the California Seals.

/random rambling


economy in Winnipeg when the Jets left was the s***s. i have lived in Winnipeg my whole life and was at the Jets farewell and i can honestly tell you that this city has changed drastically since the Jets left. it's also the pretty much on par Canadian dollar that has Canadians believing that teams can be supported. when the jets left, the dollar was s*** and it prevented a new arena from being built. the MTS centre is nice, but they need to add 3000 more seats to fund a real hockey team without sponging off the revenue sharing like the coyotes are currently doing and have been doing since revenue sharing came it to play. which begs to ask 1 question...was the lockout and salary cap era directly linked to the mistake gary bettman made expanding into non-viable hockey markets? was revenue sharing implemented because certain teams are struggling and would be forced into relocation due to exponential losses? as an NHL owner, if a portion of your revenue from your successfully run franchise was going to pay the coyotes payroll, would you not want the commissioner to explore relocation, or keep sponging and living off the big dogs dime?

bettman is an angry puppet that refuses to admit he was wrong. and where the f*** was revenue sharing to keep teams in Canada? it seems it's in place just in time to keep the struggling franchises from coming back to Canada.

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#48 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:57 PM

Lidstrom > Bettman - Life ain't fair.

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#49 eva unit zero

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:47 PM

economy in Winnipeg when the Jets left was the s***s. i have lived in Winnipeg my whole life and was at the Jets farewell and i can honestly tell you that this city has changed drastically since the Jets left. it's also the pretty much on par Canadian dollar that has Canadians believing that teams can be supported. when the jets left, the dollar was s*** and it prevented a new arena from being built. the MTS centre is nice, but they need to add 3000 more seats to fund a real hockey team without sponging off the revenue sharing like the coyotes are currently doing and have been doing since revenue sharing came it to play. which begs to ask 1 question...was the lockout and salary cap era directly linked to the mistake gary bettman made expanding into non-viable hockey markets? was revenue sharing implemented because certain teams are struggling and would be forced into relocation due to exponential losses? as an NHL owner, if a portion of your revenue from your successfully run franchise was going to pay the coyotes payroll, would you not want the commissioner to explore relocation, or keep sponging and living off the big dogs dime?

bettman is an angry puppet that refuses to admit he was wrong. and where the f*** was revenue sharing to keep teams in Canada? it seems it's in place just in time to keep the struggling franchises from coming back to Canada.


You can hate on Bettman all you want, but I'll sum up what you either didn't read, didn't comprehend, or simply ignored:

Bettman does not make teams move, and Bettman does not pick the markets. It is Bettman's job to try and increase the exposure of the game to new markets and increase the revenue for the owners.

The Jets leaving was not Bettman sitting on a throne saying "Move the Winnipeg Jets to Phoenix and name them the Coyotes." It was a team being sold due to the fact it was failing financially, due largely to lack of attendance. The sale was approved by the BoG, and the new ownership group wanted to move the team to Phoenix. The move was also approved by the BoG.

As for "where the f*** was revenue sharing" and all that; you remember the lockout during the CBA negotiations in 1994-95, right? Do you know WHY there was a lockout? The league wanted a revenue-based salary cap that would include revenue sharing, while the NHLPA wanted a looser revenue sharing model. Had the cap and revenue sharing been put in place then, the Jets would probably still be in Winnipeg.

You can argue that 'Bettman was wrong' about southern teams... but plenty of teams in the south have strong, loyal fan bases. I would bet Dallas and San Jose have better fan bases than Buffalo, Vancouver, or the Islanders.

You have to remember what it takes to build a fan base. It takes some level of success by the team to build interest in the team, plus it takes time for people to become loyal to that team. A Swedish hockey fan who moves to Los Angeles won't suddenly say "I'm a Ducks" fan or "I'm a Kings" fan just because they're there. When the Devils came to New Jersey, they didn't have many hometown fans lined up right away. Most of them were Rangers fans, or Islanders fans, or Flyers fans.

Of course a bigot like yourself will ignore those statements in favor of the "Canada is better, Canada owns hockey, everyone else should pay royalties to Canada to play a great game we incorrectly claim to have invented."

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#50 F2B&G

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:56 PM

Take it easy on Gary, guys. I hear that Cindy's an expensive date. :hehe:

#51 Spinner

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:56 AM

His salary should be part of Pittsburghs cap hit
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#52 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 10:17 AM

Bettman's salary=number of rigged games against Detroit X a million.

Do the math,he's livin' real good.
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#53 zettie85

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 10:39 AM

Making money is the number one priority in today's age.

You do actually want the NHL to be the best hockey league in the world right?

Here's some good facts about Bettman that I found on the blog I linked earlier.



ettman should be sharing his salary with some of the small market teams :lol:


Bettman has been good in some ways but really the success of the NHL was not his fault. The NHL gained popularity because Bettman did get more TV deals. If the NBA wasn't the god damn circus it is right now though it would still be higher than hockey. This was not Bettmans fault. He lucked out with the NBA shooting itself in the foot.

There is 1 reason there are 6 teams still in Canada. It has nothing to do with Bettman either. The rise of the Canadian dollar. The one thing Canadian teams needed managed to happen around the time of the lock out. Purely coincidence. Bettman again comes out looking like a ****** bag to fans but a genius financially.

If he admits defeat with his little southern experiment then I will be upset that he used our league for that experiment but still respect him trying it. He never will though.
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#54 eva unit zero

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 12:28 PM

ettman should be sharing his salary with some of the small market teams :lol:


Bettman has been good in some ways but really the success of the NHL was not his fault. The NHL gained popularity because Bettman did get more TV deals. If the NBA wasn't the god damn circus it is right now though it would still be higher than hockey. This was not Bettmans fault. He lucked out with the NBA shooting itself in the foot.

There is 1 reason there are 6 teams still in Canada. It has nothing to do with Bettman either. The rise of the Canadian dollar. The one thing Canadian teams needed managed to happen around the time of the lock out. Purely coincidence. Bettman again comes out looking like a ****** bag to fans but a genius financially.

If he admits defeat with his little southern experiment then I will be upset that he used our league for that experiment but still respect him trying it. He never will though.


Hmm...

The NBA started shooting itself in the foot about the time Bettman left. Maybe it's not such a coincidence. Just sayin...

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#55 Lidstrom for life

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:45 PM

I found some interesting statistics, it didn't seem worthy of making a thread about so I decided to throw them in here. For all the talk that VS and NBC were good ideas and how hockey is more popular now then ever we still have these statistics:

Game 6 of the 2010 Stanley cup finals = 8.28 million American viewers

Deciding game of 2009 world series = 22.3 million American viewers

World Cup Final (A sport which Americans are said to not care about and a game that didn't involve Team USA) = 24.3 million American viewers

Game 7 of 2010 NBA finals = 28.2 million American viewers

Source: http://www.mlssoccer...atch-us-history
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