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#41 newfy

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:27 PM

He does in big games. See SCF 2008/09 when he took out Crosby. Franzen is by no means Dallas Drake, but he is strong as an ox and will chip in for some physical play. It may look harmless on HD TV, but imagine a 220 ibs 6'3" brick bumping into you along the boards. Bone crushing? Probably not. Stingers? You bet.

I agree about your comment in regards to Drake type player.

Everyone else gets physical in the playoffs on the team as well. Its basically your duty as a hockey player. As for that hit, yeah it hurt Crosby but he also just rubbed him out and it awkwardly twisted Sid up. For every hit Mule lays there is a time he lets up where I'm yelling at the TV about how his 6'3 220lb body could've crushed someone.

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#42 redwingfan19

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:29 PM

lol @ people nit picking "getting destroyed" maybe It was a bad example but most logical people should know what I mean.
You may not like tough hockey, but it's winning hockey.

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#43 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:30 PM

Yeah hes going after the all time leading scoring american to be our third line center. Yeah I think him as our 3rd line center is better then having a grinder but that doesn't mean grinders aren't important.


You and I agree on that. Skill over enforcers/grit for this 2010 - We have enough grit to be contenders. But if getting tougher is that important as redwingsfan19 stated, I'd think Holland would be more concerned about getting someone tough who can chip in a few goals (and play in the playoffs) for the Modano money.

This conversation stemmed from a poster saying the 2010/11 Red Wings will "get destroyed". I couldn't disagree more. I'd be happy with Modano centering our 3rd line for a year.

#44 redwingfan19

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:37 PM

errrr...

ok what i should have said instead of "getting destroyed" is that our guys always seem to get hit hard and often. it would be nice if kenny could go out and possiblly trade one of miller/meech/rittola to bring in a guy who can not be a liability and hit back. none of the above does that.

ok you win, the wings will not get "destroyed". can we get back on topic please?

Edited by redwingfan19, 15 July 2010 - 04:40 PM.

You may not like tough hockey, but it's winning hockey.

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#45 Lee Norwegianwood

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:45 PM

Seriously? Did Brad May and his 7 minutes per night through 40 games really keep this team from getting destroyed? If anything Red Wings are bigger and stronger than last year. Franzen will be back, Cleary should be the healthiest he's been in probably 2 years, Abby should get a full season.

5'9" Bett Lebda is gone.

I don't know, but to me this year's Red Wings look stronger than last year. And who's to say Holland doesn't pick up a gritty scrub at camp. You know, someone who actually works for his chance.

I doubt one guy who plays 7 minutes through 40 games is going to put this team over the edge in terms of "toughness" and "grit".



Brad May and his 7 minutes per night did help this team to not get bullied. Mike Babcock noticed it durring May's tryout and that's why he was signed. The Brad May insurance policy was kept in the lineup until every game became critical (due to numerous losses when the team was injured) and it became worth the risk to sit him out. October and November games are not worth that risk.

Mr Nill also seems to disagree with you and believe that individual players do make a difference in toughness. He seems to identify toughness as a weakness on the current squad (rightfully so, I think) and states that a guy willing to crash, bang and fight will help address that.

Edited by Lee Norwegianwood, 15 July 2010 - 04:46 PM.


#46 Frozen-Man

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:47 PM

Yeah Nill is saying that is our weakness so the front office must realize we need some more grit in the lineup. Holland said it after the season was over as well. They have tonnes of buzz about Callahan and how muc better he has gotten. There was so many people on this site saying he would probably never make it but now it looks very likely that he will. Not to mention he is a very good fighter pound for pound. He will most likely be able to go against everyone and do well in the league except the big heavyweights. He also seems that he won't be just a 7 minute a night enforcer, he's a Drake type that fights more and better.

This article also kinda points out my biggest concern for this guy. I was worried about his skating but it says hes a speedy player so that concern is out the door.

Looks like we have a solid 4th liner at least on the way up who can hit, fight and play. I'm excited


I agree, he seems like he will be great for the team, someone that will really help with that weakness. One thing I found interesting about Nill's statement though is he said every team has a weakness because of the cap. I wonder if the Wings management realize that "not being too tough" is the Wings weakness but realizing that the cap forces all teams to be weak in some area they are willing to let that be the Wings weakness. Not saying he does, just curious.


This kid plus Abdelkader on a line would be a beautiful thing to see. Smashing everything left and right and fighting. Or Abby on the third line so we have a really physical presence plus Cally and a bigger enforcer type on the 4th line with Cally. That would be a sick one two punch


Throw in Helm and that would be a non-stop hit fest.

You're kidding yourself if you think that fighting is not important in the sport of hockey.That's like saying tall players aren't important in basketball.


I agree fighting is a very very important part of the game but that is perhaps the worst analogy ever. :lol:

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#47 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:47 PM

this is my point. it's not about tough guys. it's about getting rid of redundant players to bring in guys who can counter the other teams physical play. it's not going to stop the wings from getting hit but it be nice if they had more guys who could hit back.

leave it for someone to turn it into an enforcing thread...


I thought what you meant by your "Red Wings will get destroyed" statement was by fighting? Because that would probably be the only hole some would thing this team has. Despite the fact that we have Abdelkader, Eaves, Ericsson who are all willing to drop the gloves.

If you meant Detroit will "get destroyed" physically, then wow! This team, as it stands right now, is quiet physical. The addition of Abdelkader makes them so much tougher. He's like a wrecking crew out there. Kronwall is arguably the most feared htting defenceman in the game (per some article I read a few weeks ago). Stuart, as we all know, is a nasty hitter. Players always saying how underrated Datsyuk is physically and he can sting ya. Miller / Eaves do their job. Helm is like a bullet, though not sure how much he can hurt ya. Cleary is grit and heart...

Of course Draper and Maltby have taken a step back, but Abby is replacing Maltby and this Drapers last year.

I fail to see how this team is struggling in the hitting department. Clearly they can hold their own, then some.

#48 newfy

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:50 PM

You and I agree on that. Skill over enforcers/grit for this 2010 - We have enough grit to be contenders. But if getting tougher is that important as redwingsfan19 stated, I'd think Holland would be more concerned about getting someone tough who can chip in a few goals (and play in the playoffs) for the Modano money.

This conversation stemmed from a poster saying the 2010/11 Red Wings will "get destroyed". I couldn't disagree more. I'd be happy with Modano centering our 3rd line for a year.

Skill when we're talking about a 500+ goal scorer yeah. But I take a tough Drake player over most of our bottom 6 anyday. Guys like Miller aren't really needed or in the past guys like Kopecky. Sure they score a bit but I would rather on the 4th line a guy who scores 5, hits and will fight, then a guy who will score 10 because he is a bit more skilled but won't hit or fight.

No one is saying trade Dats to make cap space for Boogard here, its getting rid of players hwo don't provide a whole lot for guys who have a role and play it well like Drake did in the past.

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#49 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:51 PM

errrr...

ok what i should have said instead of "getting destroyed" is that our guys always seem to get hit hard and often. it would be nice if kenny could go out and possiblly trade one of miller/meech/rittola to bring in a guy who can not be a liability and hit back. none of the above does that.

ok you win, the wings will not get "destroyed". can we get back on topic please?


Puck possession teams usually get hit more because, well.. because they have the puck. If a Wings player attempts to hit players who are out of play and don't have the puck, it's a 2 minute penalty for interference or roughing.

Personally, I like the fact that DRWs are a puck possession team. Would you rather the Red Wings pass the puck to opposition players so Abdelkader or Kronwall or Stuart or Helm or Miller or Eaves could knock him through the boards?

#50 Lee Norwegianwood

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:55 PM

So you admit that statement was ludicrous? Wings are not going to "get destroyed". Wings won't be at tough as Flyers or Rangers, but at least Wings are a contender. Is Franzen "tough"? He's not a fighter if that's what you mean, but he's as strong as an ox. Fighting isn't as important in today's hockey than it was in the 90s. Lets not kid ourselves. Having a fighter is fun and dandy, but at the end of the day, its not what wins primo factor that wins Stanely cups. Did Dallas Drake fight in the finals in 2008? Heck, Drake wasn't even an enforcer, but the important type of player in the playoffs. That's what I like Callahan, he's got skills and is gritty.

But to day this team will "get destroyed" this season is just dumb. Especially when the 2011 Wings will be a bit tougher and stronger than the 2010 team.

in 2009/10:
- How did an enforcer stop Ohlund from separating Zetterberg's shoulder?
- How did an enforcer stop Doan from taking out Ericsson?
- How did an enforcer stop Laraque from taking out Kronwall?


The hits on Z and Ericsson were relatively clean, iirc. May was sadly scratched durring the game in which Laraque creamed Kronwall.

And Franzen is not tough. Tough men do not cower away in sheer terror when other, smaller men come after them on the ice. See Franzen v. Getslaf in the playoffs when Franzen made an embarassment out of the sweater - when the linesman is laughing at you, it means you're not tough. Watch Franzen when he's forced to fight - he just looks away and makes it clear that all he cares about is making sure that his precious face doesn't get touched. He's gutless, except when it comes to taking mouthguards from midgets, then he's Billy Badass.

#51 Frozen-Man

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:59 PM

Skill when we're talking about a 500+ goal scorer yeah. But I take a tough Drake player over most of our bottom 6 anyday. Guys like Miller aren't really needed or in the past guys like Kopecky. Sure they score a bit but I would rather on the 4th line a guy who scores 5, hits and will fight, then a guy who will score 10 because he is a bit more skilled but won't hit or fight.


I agree the few extra goals are not worth it if we can get a guy who isn't a liability and is more of an enforcer.

No one is saying trade Dats to make cap space for Boogard here, its getting rid of players hwo don't provide a whole lot for guys who have a role and play it well like Drake did in the past.


Not you but a few guys here might say that. I kid. . . I kid. But not by much.

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#52 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:02 PM

I dont think the Wings will get destroyed in the regular season, but they arent a very physical team. Abdelkader will be a wrecking ball, as will Helm, and Eaves to some extent. But lets be real here, they arent Scott Stevens, we dont have any big guys who hit hard. Hopefully a healthy Dano will help that a bit, but as much as I love Bert, Franzen and Homer they dont hit as much as they should. On the back end, Stuart always finishes his checks, but Kronwall? Just cuz he's a huge open ice hitter sometimes, doesnt mean he's a hard hitter. If he'd finish all his checks, then he'd be feared. Ericsson is huge and fights, but I havent seen him throw a decent hit once. I dont know anything about Kindl, and we all know what we're getting in Lidstrom, Rafalski and Meech.

I mean, we're not that soft or that bad. And we wont be cheapshotted/scrumed up alot because Bertuzzi is the ultimate detterent, he comes around and people back off... unless your dumbass Bobby Ryan and then you face his wrath. But it couldnt hurt to get a couple of tougher guys as spares instead of the Millers/Meechs of the world.

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#53 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:06 PM

The hits on Z and Ericsson were relatively clean, iirc. May was sadly scratched durring the game in which Laraque creamed Kronwall.

And Franzen is not tough. Tough men do not cower away in sheer terror when other, smaller men come after them on the ice. See Franzen v. Getslaf in the playoffs when Franzen made an embarassment out of the sweater - when the linesman is laughing at you, it means you're not tough. Watch Franzen when he's forced to fight - he just looks away and makes it clear that all he cares about is making sure that his precious face doesn't get touched. He's gutless, except when it comes to taking mouthguards from midgets, then he's Billy Badass.

Gee micah, did you lose your password or something? :lol:
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#54 Frozen-Man

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:09 PM

Gee micah, did you lose your password or something? :lol:


:lol:

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#55 Heaten

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:09 PM

Brad May and his 7 minutes per night did help this team to not get bullied. Mike Babcock noticed it durring May's tryout and that's why he was signed. The Brad May insurance policy was kept in the lineup until every game became critical (due to numerous losses when the team was injured) and it became worth the risk to sit him out. October and November games are not worth that risk.

Mr Nill also seems to disagree with you and believe that individual players do make a difference in toughness. He seems to identify toughness as a weakness on the current squad (rightfully so, I think) and states that a guy willing to crash, bang and fight will help address that.


I don't recall Wings getting bullied after May was a healthy scratch either. Also I don't remember Wings getting bullied in 2009 to the point where it hurt the team when Downey was a healthy scratch. After all, they did finish 1st in the central division that year, and charged all the way to the SCF.

If Nill thought Wings are in dyer trouble for toughness, I'd think he'd be advising Holland to avoid Modano and make a pitch to Boogard for $1.25/1.50 mil (or a player alike).

I'm all for toughness when it's needed and they help the team. Wings have the toughness they need to go all the way. The only hole I see is not having a reliable 6th defencemen. Sure, get one that hits like a brick, as long as he's a defensive defencemen like Mckee

#56 IceMunkee

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:11 PM

After reading this I am very excited about this young man. Bringing a cutie like Duff around only makes him cooler. We could really use a guy like him now. I know he will be ready in a year or two but let's find a way to defend the likes of Lids, Z, and Raf. Howard can't do it all!
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#57 newfy

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:14 PM

I guess regarding next season, teh wild card could be what our 6th dman spot does. We may sign someone like Hnidy and suddenly our team is pretty tough, maybe Ericcson is told he needs to be more physical and fight more and he does and suddenly this team is respectable. Janik may also end up in the lineup quite a bit which would be good because he will stick up for his teammates. Smith may surprise us as well if somehow he gets the spot. I mean he's a skilled player but he does have a bit of an edge and he fought a few times in the OPJHL including a fight against Greeenop which he won.

We shouldn't judge the toughness of our team quite yet when we still have the possibility of adding another tough player. Tough #6 dman (hnidy,exelby etc) + Abby full time + maybe a more physical tough Ericcson and this team wouldn't be that bad toughness wise. Not great by any means but much more respectable .

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#58 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:22 PM

I don't recall Wings getting bullied after May was a healthy scratch either. Also I don't remember Wings getting bullied in 2009 to the point where it hurt the team when Downey was a healthy scratch. After all, they did finish 1st in the central division that year, and charged all the way to the SCF.

If Nill thought Wings are in dyer trouble for toughness, I'd think he'd be advising Holland to avoid Modano and make a pitch to Boogard for $1.25/1.50 mil (or a player alike).

I'm all for toughness when it's needed and they help the team. Wings have the toughness they need to go all the way. The only hole I see is not having a reliable 6th defencemen. Sure, get one that hits like a brick, as long as he's a defensive defencemen like Mckee

If the roster stays the same, the Wings will have the weakest team in the league as far as fighting goes. There won't be anyone in the AHL (right now) that can be called up either. Tardif is the closest thing we have in the system that could play an NHL game.

However, we do have enough toughness to win the cup. An enforcer isn't needed to win. The argument for one is that they will offer more (in energy, sticking up for teammates, etc) than a player like Miller can with his limited offensive potential. Nobody is going to two hand Dats to the head because we don't have an enforcer, but they may take a few more runs at him. I think Callahan strikes a nice balance between toughness and offensive potential. He should be able to play hockey well enough to make the team without fighting considered, and the fighting will just be icing. In the meantime, I'd like the Wings to find someone who can stick up for their teammates (like Boll).

Edit- I would have been upset if the Wings offered Boogy 1.25m+. He just doesn't play hockey well enough to deserve that type of money IMO. I am all for toughness and grit, but having the toughest guy in the NHL isn't necessary to be tough. I'd prefer someone who can fight HW's when needed and also play a decent fourth line game. Boll and Lappy (when younger) are perfect examples of this type of player.

Edited by WorkingOvertime, 15 July 2010 - 05:25 PM.


#59 Jesusberg

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:31 PM

We shouldn't judge the toughness of our team quite yet when we still have the possibility of adding another tough player. Tough #6 dman (hnidy,exelby etc) + Abby full time + maybe a more physical tough Ericcson and this team wouldn't be that bad toughness wise. Not great by any means but much more respectable .


This would go along way in Ericsson getting some slack from fans, and perhaps a little more confidence for himself. He's about 6'4, 220lbs. Clear the net man, you're a beast!

#60 newfy

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:41 PM

I don't recall Wings getting bullied after May was a healthy scratch either. Also I don't remember Wings getting bullied in 2009 to the point where it hurt the team when Downey was a healthy scratch. After all, they did finish 1st in the central division that year, and charged all the way to the SCF.

If Nill thought Wings are in dyer trouble for toughness, I'd think he'd be advising Holland to avoid Modano and make a pitch to Boogard for $1.25/1.50 mil (or a player alike).

I'm all for toughness when it's needed and they help the team. Wings have the toughness they need to go all the way. The only hole I see is not having a reliable 6th defencemen. Sure, get one that hits like a brick, as long as he's a defensive defencemen like Mckee

That may be true but you know what else you didn't see? The wings weren't being bullies themselves. With May in the lineup the wings were as a whole playing tougher. Guys like Meech and Cleary fought and just watching you could tell they were dishing out more punishment.

You might argue this, but with May in the lineup I thought the wings really did to a bit more bullying to other teams then they did when he was sent down. Thats my observation. You could also see he was showing Abby the ropes of how to play tough like that game against Minnesota where Abby tried fighting Burns then dropped them with Clutterbuck. \i know you don't think he made much of a difference but did you honestly not notice this out of the wings? They did bully other teams more when they had May in the lineup.

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