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The single biggest scapegoat of the Red Wings in the last 20+ years...


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#41 Jesusberg

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 08:36 PM

I just watched ESPN's "The Season" yesterday which covered the 2002-03 for the Red Wings, and man did they seem to dog Cujo (no pun intended) throughout. They mentioned a few games where he'd given up like 3 goals on 12 shots, or something like that. I definitely wasn't a fan of the move at the time, but I think people really ragged on him too much. I just remember thinking his style of play didn't suit Detroit, but I never had much against the guy. His play wasn't as terrible as some people would lead you to believe.

#42 eva unit zero

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 08:45 PM

The difference is I think the Osgood loving (myself included) balances out the Osgood hating.

It's a healthy balance.


Overall, no he wasn't. And that's because the loving has more recently peaked with a couple DOMINANT playoff runs and a Cup win. But the hating was much worse. Just think about 1994, when, despite the fact Osgood came in to save Bob Essensa's ass, the Wings were supposed to be dominant champions who swept their way through the playoffs, just as they did in the regular season? A President's trophy without Yzerman, and then Yzerman returning to center arguably the best line (Primeau-Yzerman-Sheppard) in the league (challenged by Kozlov-Fedorov-Ciccarelli) and then to see that team just fail so miserably across the board and then all the blame to be set at the rookie goaltender's feet for one thing he did wrong, after having stolen the starter job three times that season for being one of the ten or fifteen best goaltenders in the NHL in his first season in the NHL. Being scapegoated so heavily that year definitely puts him up there in the "single-season" and "rookie" categories, but his playoff performances since then have cleared his name.
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#43 mackel

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 08:56 PM

And to think that some people are doing the very same to Jimmy...


Overall, no he wasn't. And that's because the loving has more recently peaked with a couple DOMINANT playoff runs and a Cup win. But the hating was much worse. Just think about 1994, when, despite the fact Osgood came in to save Bob Essensa's ass, the Wings were supposed to be dominant champions who swept their way through the playoffs, just as they did in the regular season? A President's trophy without Yzerman, and then Yzerman returning to center arguably the best line (Primeau-Yzerman-Sheppard) in the league (challenged by Kozlov-Fedorov-Ciccarelli) and then to see that team just fail so miserably across the board and then all the blame to be set at the rookie goaltender's feet for one thing he did wrong, after having stolen the starter job three times that season for being one of the ten or fifteen best goaltenders in the NHL in his first season in the NHL. Being scapegoated so heavily that year definitely puts him up there in the "single-season" and "rookie" categories, but his playoff performances since then have cleared his name.



#44 Seraph

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:00 PM

Our offense did struggle in the playoffs when Cujo backstopped. However, the type of goals that were beating Cujo were so demoralizing that it added insult to injury. Sometimes you just need your goalie to be able to shut down the game with half a period left. A lot of the time, he would not only fail at that but would let in softies. It was a bad situation overall. Especially because before he came to Detroit, he was my favorite goalie but none of us got to see him thrive here. He was the type of player that could play when you weren't expecting him to win. I mean the guy single-handedly upset the Avalanche and Stars in the 97 and 98 playoffs (which is one of the reasons I liked him as a Wings fan in the 90s). The expectations were just too much for him in Detroit.

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#45 titanium2

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:06 PM

And to think that some people are doing the very same to Jimmy...


Snap.

#46 Doc Holliday

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:37 PM

And to think that some people are doing the very same to Jimmy...


Jimmy hasn't cleared his name yet, has he?

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#47 eva unit zero

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:38 PM

And to think that some people are doing the very same to Jimmy...


If that's a shot at my take on Howard's playoff performance, I state again for the record that I think I he played below his ability due to the fact he was overly fatigued, and the team didn't give him the kind of protection that would have let him play at top end. It wasn't Howard's fault, but I don't want to see the same kind of failed stamina from that kid next postseason. I wanted better managed goaltending and I want a goalie who can handle his starts, 20 or 70. Last year's Wings might have gotten to the Conference Finals with Tim Cheveldae. With last year's team he could have been Grant Fuhr; a goalie with great stamina playing very well every game on a great team. Instead of just being who he was, a goalie who was capable of playing an entire season (72 games in 91-92, 30 games in 94-95) and the only reason he didn't play more games is because he spent half his career as a backup or 1a.
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#48 Barrie

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:06 PM

Our offense did struggle in the playoffs when Cujo backstopped. However, the type of goals that were beating Cujo were so demoralizing that it added insult to injury. Sometimes you just need your goalie to be able to shut down the game with half a period left. A lot of the time, he would not only fail at that but would let in softies. It was a bad situation overall. Especially because before he came to Detroit, he was my favorite goalie but none of us got to see him thrive here. He was the type of player that could play when you weren't expecting him to win. I mean the guy single-handedly upset the Avalanche and Stars in the 97 and 98 playoffs (which is one of the reasons I liked him as a Wings fan in the 90s). The expectations were just too much for him in Detroit.

Yes I remember the goal he let in off Steve Thomas, he went down to soon, I thought at the time, and still do, that Hasek would have stopped it. It was a play/goal that I think cost us the series. If he made that save, things would have been different.

As mentioned before, I'm not blaming CuJo, because the offense wasn't working, but I agree the expectations were to much for him and he couldn't handle it, especially coming from Toronto where the expectations were much lower. Hasek was able to handle it, CuJo wasn't, so I have no sympathy when I hear him say coming to Detroit was the biggest mistake of his career. As good as he was, he just wasn't mentally tough enough for Detroit, and he probably should have stayed in Toronto.

And to think that some people are doing the very same to Jimmy...

That just comes with playing goal in Detroit. Everyone playing between the pipes here has to deal with it.
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#49 Outsider

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:59 PM

Funny. Most people tend to forget, (or do they), that Dom didn't voluntarily forfeit a portion of his salary for the 2004 Season until AFTER Ken Holland "met" with him about the matter. Had he NOT done so, he would have been burned at the stake in Detroit. Period.

Funny how history gets "revised", isn't it?

#50 Buppy

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:32 AM

Yes I remember the goal he let in off Steve Thomas, he went down to soon, I thought at the time, and still do, that Hasek would have stopped it. It was a play/goal that I think cost us the series. If he made that save, things would have been different.
As mentioned before, I'm not blaming CuJo, because the offense wasn't working, but I agree the expectations were to much for him and he couldn't handle it, especially coming from Toronto where the expectations were much lower. Hasek was able to handle it, CuJo wasn't, so I have no sympathy when I hear him say coming to Detroit was the biggest mistake of his career. As good as he was, he just wasn't mentally tough enough for Detroit, and he probably should have stayed in Toronto.


That just comes with playing goal in Detroit. Everyone playing between the pipes here has to deal with it.

Ridiculous.

We scored 6 goals in 4 games (+ another game worth of OT) against Anaheim that year. You say you're not blaming him then turn around and say he couldn't handle the pressure? Of course Cujo couldn't handle the expectations if those expectations were retardedly unrealistic.

Giguere made 60-some saves in the first game. That's what cost us the series. He got to us in that game, and the offense was never the same. The team was out of sync, either throwing weak perimeter shots or trying to do too much. Cujo may have let in a couple goals he could have stopped, but he also made several saves that could have, and probably should have, been goals.

Hasek was far from great against Vancouver, got pulled in a game against St.Louis, and had a few mediocre games against Colorado and Carolina. The only real difference was Hasek had an offense scoring 3-4+ goals instead of 0-2 like Cujo normally had.

#51 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 07:13 AM

Dino Ciccarelli, 1996.

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#52 mmamolo

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:13 AM

Ridiculous.

We scored 6 goals in 4 games (+ another game worth of OT) against Anaheim that year. You say you're not blaming him then turn around and say he couldn't handle the pressure? Of course Cujo couldn't handle the expectations if those expectations were retardedly unrealistic.

Giguere made 60-some saves in the first game. That's what cost us the series. He got to us in that game, and the offense was never the same. The team was out of sync, either throwing weak perimeter shots or trying to do too much. Cujo may have let in a couple goals he could have stopped, but he also made several saves that could have, and probably should have, been goals.

Hasek was far from great against Vancouver, got pulled in a game against St.Louis, and had a few mediocre games against Colorado and Carolina. The only real difference was Hasek had an offense scoring 3-4+ goals instead of 0-2 like Cujo normally had.


As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.
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#53 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:03 AM

Yes I remember the goal he let in off Steve Thomas, he went down to soon, I thought at the time, and still do, that Hasek would have stopped it. It was a play/goal that I think cost us the series. If he made that save, things would have been different.

As mentioned before, I'm not blaming CuJo, because the offense wasn't working, but I agree the expectations were to much for him and he couldn't handle it, especially coming from Toronto where the expectations were much lower. Hasek was able to handle it, CuJo wasn't, so I have no sympathy when I hear him say coming to Detroit was the biggest mistake of his career. As good as he was, he just wasn't mentally tough enough for Detroit, and he probably should have stayed in Toronto.

You pretty much just confirmed the whole point of this thread.

You can always highlight one play and say that would've changed everything. That doesn't make it true. What if Robitaille hadn't shot 2 inches lower so he didn't hit the crossbar?

In 4 games against the Ducks, here was Detroit's goal production from their star players.

Fedorov 1, Hull 0, Shanahan 1, Lidstrom 0, Holmstrom 1, Robitaille 1, Yzerman 0.

Jason Wooley had as many goals as Sergei Fedorov. I won't bother to dig up the salaries those guys were making at the time, but you get the point.

Cujo played plenty well enough to win. Detroit just got beat by a team that wanted it more against a coach that knew how to maximize what assets his team had.

#54 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:08 AM

As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.


Howard had a great season, but at the same time it's hard to blame the defense playing worse in front of Osgood on Osgood, when Osgood never got to play. That's going back and forth again and again, trying to lay the blame on nobody?

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#55 DEVILSWATERBOY

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:45 AM

I can not believe that nobody has brought up Tim Cheveldae, or the mess in the late 80's in Edmonton with Zombo,Oats,Klima, and I think Probie at the strip joint until 2am the night before game 7 of the confrence finals, this to me is bigger then any of the ones posted

Edited by DEVILSWATERBOY, 18 August 2010 - 11:27 AM.


#56 Motown4013

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 10:41 AM

For an otherwise stellar program as far as handling players and the class of the organization overall, there was not a single situation handled worse than the Curtis Joseph fiasco and it still bothers me to this day how it went down...

It still infuriates me how Curtis Joseph was treated here and how raw of a deal he got... he was flat out STELLAR in the playoffs both years (especially in 03-04) and was made a scapegoat for an offense that couldn't score and a coaching staff that couldn't adjust to life without Scotty and a head coach in Dave Lewis that wasn't ready to be an NHL head coach...


Curtis Joseph's Playoff Stats here in Detroit:

Year Team League GP W L OT Min. GA SA GAA PCT SO
2003-04 Detroit NHL 9 4 4 - 518 12 197 1.39 .939 1
2002-03 Detroit NHL 4 0 4 - 289 10 120 2.08 .917 0

Regular Season:
Year Team League GP W L OT Min. GA SA GAA PCT SO
2003-04 Detroit NHL 31 16 10 - 1708 68 744 2.39 .909 2
2002-03 Detroit NHL 61 34 19 - 3566 148 1676 2.49 .912 5

If you watched ANY of the '04 playoffs, the poor guy stood on his head and lost games 1-0 or 2-1 and his offense gave him NO scoring support, only to be basically ousted in the off-season for an injury plagued Dominik Hasek that was not in physical condition at the time to justify the move(who had already retired and was a year removed from hockey, let alone NHL hockey) and never got the shot at the cup that he so badly deserved...

Great Post- and couldnt agree more! Its one of the only times I have been outraged by the way the Wings handled a situation.
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#57 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:08 AM

I can not believe that nobody has brought up Tim Cheveldae, or the mess in the late 90's in Edmenton with Zombo,Oats,Klima, and I think Probie at the strip joint until 2am the night before game 7 of the confrence finals, this to me is bigger then any of the ones posted


Did you even READ the thread?
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#58 DEVILSWATERBOY

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:20 AM

Did you even READ the thread?

Joesph was a scapegoat, but I have to beleive that Cheveldae was bigger, how fast did they run him out of the D after that loss to Toronto, when it was clear that back then it was the coaching style of Murray that was the early playoff exits.

#59 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:39 PM

Joesph was a scapegoat, but I have to beleive that Cheveldae was bigger, how fast did they run him out of the D after that loss to Toronto, when it was clear that back then it was the coaching style of Murray that was the early playoff exits.


Ok, as you clearly missed my point given that you still seem to believe Cheveldae has gone unmentioned:

He was first mentioned on August 17th, 10:38. You can even go back and read the post, it's not that far back and not that long.

You're welcome.

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#60 DEVILSWATERBOY

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:22 PM


Ok, as you clearly missed my point given that you still seem to believe Cheveldae has gone unmentioned:

He was first mentioned on August 17th, 10:38. You can even go back and read the post, it's not that far back and not that long.

You're welcome.

Sorry didn't mean rain on your parade :) some good points there, I posted this early this morning and skimmed through and just did not catch his name





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