84 replies to this topic

[datsyukonethree]

I'm going to go with Boyd Devereaux.

[HankthaTank]

Damn Yuri Butsayev.

[StormJH1]

How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

Meanwhile, Pavel Datsyuk had an injured foot and was limited to only 16 games. He scored ONE goal during our entire run through the '09 Playoffs. I love Pavel Datsyuk, but can somebody please tell me why Pavel was seen as the valiant hero braving injury, while Hossa (who scored 6 times as many goals) was viewed as the no-good bum? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Hossa came to the Wings as a one-year mercenary, and that's exactly how he left. Yet, I can't even wear his jersey in public because there are Wings fans dumb enough to think that he single handedly "cursed" us out of the '09 Cup. I don't put this "scapegoating" on the same level as Primeau, Cheveldae, and CuJo b/c it was just one year of service, but it still irks me nonetheless.

[Buppy]

As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.

Equally ridiculous.

Like Eva said, you can't really blame the way the team plays on the goalie, especially in Cujo's case when he played very well. We were putting up 30-35+ shots a game, allowing ~20-30. Those aren't numbers suggesting the team was in a defensive shell. Likewise, a goalie that needs to be protected doesn't post a .935 save percentage.

6 goals on 171 shots in 4 games against Anaheim.

3 goals (shutout twice) on 127 shots in 4 losses to Calgary. In the last two games against Calgary, Cujo made 63 of 65 saves.

Blaming Jospeh at all for those losses is retarded.

[StormJH1]

BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

[Buppy]

BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

Sergei took a lot of heat for his lack of goals in 96 and 99 (especially since those were two of Yzerman's best years goal-wise).

I think the Lemieux hit on Draper took a lot of heat off everyone in 96 (Primeau did get a lot after he was traded), and Ranford got a ton in 99 (though not as much as he deserved), but I think Fedorov can still be called a scapegoat. Not really one of the biggest, but still a scapegoat.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Funny. Most people tend to forget, (or do they), that Dom didn't voluntarily forfeit a portion of his salary for the 2004 Season until AFTER Ken Holland "met" with him about the matter. Had he NOT done so, he would have been burned at the stake in Detroit. Period.

Funny how history gets "revised", isn't it?

Link/source?

Regardless of if you are making this up or not, Hasek should still be given credit for sacrificing money back when he easily could've said it's my money, I'm keeping it.

BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

When Fedorov left, it wasn't just him leaving at the time which aggravated a lot of Wings fans I think. The whole deal of holding out in 1998, and the perception whether it is right/wrong or fair/unfair that he doesn't always have the best work ethic or coasts contributed to the disliking of him leaving. That, and at the time of leaving still being offered a boatload of money and rejecting it, whether you or anybody else thinks it is his fault or management's fault for him not returning (that whole story we'll never fully know).

I see both sides. I'm sure he had his reasons for leaving. And whether the perception of the work ethic is fair/not, I think it isn't all that far out there in left field to say he coasted sometimes. At the same time though, without him in either 1997, 1998 or 2002, it would've been difficult winning those Cups. He obviously wasn't the sole reason they won it, but he certainly contributed plenty during those years.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 18 August 2010 - 07:36 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

Meanwhile, Pavel Datsyuk had an injured foot and was limited to only 16 games. He scored ONE goal during our entire run through the '09 Playoffs. I love Pavel Datsyuk, but can somebody please tell me why Pavel was seen as the valiant hero braving injury, while Hossa (who scored 6 times as many goals) was viewed as the no-good bum? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Hossa came to the Wings as a one-year mercenary, and that's exactly how he left. Yet, I can't even wear his jersey in public because there are Wings fans dumb enough to think that he single handedly "cursed" us out of the '09 Cup. I don't put this "scapegoating" on the same level as Primeau, Cheveldae, and CuJo b/c it was just one year of service, but it still irks me nonetheless.

Regarding Primeau, I don't think he was nearly as much of a scapegoat as Cujo. Expectations were high for Primeau for sure though. He was drafted third overall (ahead of Jagr), and never really lived up to that promise.

It wasn't just the one bad season in '96. He actually only really had one good playoff year in Detroit in 95. Previous to that he hadn't scored a goal in the postseason in '92, 93 or 94 (in 25 playoff games). I think by 96 people in Detroit had just grown weary of watching him make a strong move to the net, only to lose an edge or the puck or both and go crashing into the net.

Primeau wasn't bad. He just never turned into the player in Detroit they hoped he would be.

[Hockeytown0001]

Turned out to be pretty good trade bait as well.

[Outsider]

Link/source?

Regardless of if you are making this up or not, Hasek should still be given credit for sacrificing money back when he easily could've said it's my money, I'm keeping it.

There are no "links" remaining. The closest thing to the truth is here: From the Ottawa Citizen - June 06, 2006

"....Hasek later agreed to forfeit $3 million U.S. in salary...."

Go to your local library and look at the HARD COPIES of the local newspapers. The story is there. I'm not "making it up".

And once again, yes....he COULD have said "I'm keeping it." But do you really think his ego would have allowed him to be vilified in Detroit, after his "In my heart, I'll always be a Red Wing" speech?

Come on....

[SouthernWingsFan]

There are no "links" remaining. The closest thing to the truth is here: From the Ottawa Citizen - June 06, 2006

"....Hasek later agreed to forfeit $3 million U.S. in salary...."

K... While I have little doubt he did much to make the goaltending bruhaha that season any easier, I fail to see how this makes him out to be an extra bad person or whatever like you are trying to make him out to be.

Go to your local library and look at the HARD COPIES of the local newspapers. The story is there. I'm not "making it up".

I'm not from a hockey oriented climate, I doubt I'd find any such articles at my local libraries.

And once again, yes....he COULD have said "I'm keeping it." But do you really think his ego would have allowed him to be vilified in Detroit, after his "In my heart, I'll always be a Red Wing" speech?

Come on....

You have a link/source to that speech as well?

And he could've easily been brick-headed and let his ego get in the way and wanted to keep all the money after being asked to sacrafice...

[cusimano_brothers]

Shawn Burr, 1995.

[Travis]

How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

I'm someone who still has disdain for Keith Primeau. Defensemen have always been my favorite players on the ice, and Paul Coffey was my first favorite Red Wing. I always looked at it as Primeau's requesting to be traded as having taken Paul Coffey away from my team. Looking back now, Coffey and Primeau were replaced by maybe my all-time favorite Red Wing - so it eases the aggression somewhat; but based on my experiences Primeau will always come across negatively to me.

I agree with your Hossa point, not that he was the biggest of all time - but that he was definitely a scapegoat. Just because a new contract couldn't be agreed upon (which everyone should have expected), Hossa was suddenly hit with all the blame. Of course, it's easier to blame the guy who leaves town. Don't get me wrong, he had a disappointing Finals - I would never argue he didn't - but everyone on the team lost those 4 games.

[cusimano_brothers]

In his career, Keith Primeau had a mindset that he wanted to be the star; not a star, but the star, no matter where he played or at what level. Part of this was being captain. When he realized that wasn't going to happen in Detroit for a long time, he set his sights elsewhere. Maybe he was a great leader; he just wasn't going to be great leader in Detroit.

[Outsider]

K... While I have little doubt he did much to make the goaltending bruhaha that season any easier, I fail to see how this makes him out to be an extra bad person or whatever like you are trying to make him out to be.

I didn't post the facts to illustrate that he was an "extra bad person", only to refute those who laud him for voluntarily forfeiting half his salary. That wasn't how it went down. It's similar to the way in which the story about how Dom became a Wing in the first place has evolved from the truth, which was that Dom had his agent call the Wings and tell them that he was leaving Buffalo, and that he wanted to play for Detroit - but that if Detroit didn't want him, then he'd sign with the Blues, to "the Wings pursued Hasek." There's quite a bit of difference between the two scenarios, but it's the false scenario which is "remembered" now as the truth.

I'm not from a hockey oriented climate, I doubt I'd find any such articles at my local libraries.

That's unfortunate. Because by this time, most of the "links" have been taken down as outdated. The only record of the truth of the matter lies in the actual written, not the electronic, version. That's kind of scary, if you think about it....

You have a link/source to that speech as well?

You're kidding, right? C'mon, you don't remember the flap that caused in Buffalo, when he made that statement during his retirement speech after the Cup Win in 2002?

Once again, unfortunately, the links have all been taken down. Can't even find a youtube clip of his retirement presser anymore. I suppose that presser must never have occurred, since there's no "link" to it....

There IS this, though: From a Fan Blog after the 2008 Cup Win

In discussing Dom's retirement after the Cup Win in 2008, it reminisces about his less than ideal departure from Buffalo, and his retirement speech after the 2002 Cup Win:

It was forgotten, almost as if it never happened.

Dominik Hasek was seated on a dais in Detroit's Joe Louis Arena for a news conference to announce his retirement Tuesday. Only when a reporter asked The Dominator about the Buffalo Sabres did he acknowledge his old team.

Hasek finally found his Holy Grail two weeks ago when he and the Detroit Red Wings won the Stanley Cup. He had won six Vezina Trophies as the NHL's top goalie and two Hart Trophies as the league's MVP -- all with the Sabres.

But the Stanley Cup completed his spectacular career.

"I am and I will be a Red Wing forever," Hasek read in his opening statement.

And just like that, the Sabres were rendered the same discarded fate as Chuck Cunningham on "Happy Days." For those unfamiliar with the sitcom: The oldest child of Mr. and Mrs. C was eliminated from the show's consciousness as if he never existed after the first season. -The Buffalo News, June 26, 2002

There's a link in the blog post to a rather scathing article in the Buffalo News. Unfortunately, that article no longer exists in cyberspace. It's been taken down. The only place to find it is in the public library in Buffalo.

Or perhaps that article never existed, after all, either....

[SouthernWingsFan]

I didn't post the facts to illustrate that he was an "extra bad person", only to refute those who laud him for voluntarily forfeiting half his salary. That wasn't how it went down. It's similar to the way in which the story about how Dom became a Wing in the first place has evolved from the truth, which was that Dom had his agent call the Wings and tell them that he was leaving Buffalo, and that he wanted to play for Detroit - but that if Detroit didn't want him, then he'd sign with the Blues, to "the Wings pursued Hasek." There's quite a bit of difference between the two scenarios, but it's the false scenario which is "remembered" now as the truth.

K... Point was to people in here probably was that he was a Red Wing and won us the Stanley Cup in 2002. I don't see anything really shady or out of whack about "how he became a Wing" if this is the case. I don't think a lot of people in here are going to care all that badly about how it "all went down" or whatever.

You're kidding, right? C'mon, you don't remember the flap that caused in Buffalo, when he made that statement during his retirement speech after the Cup Win in 2002?

Nope, I don't remember it.

[egroen]

Every single Wings' goalie ever.
Robert Lang
Boyd Devereaux
Brett Lebda

Kopecky will always grind my gears.
Nothing infuriated me more than the Wings down 1 or 2 goals in the third, and Babcock puts in Kopecky (while sitting Hudler) who promptly flops around on the ice like a fish out of water for his entire shift.

[Outsider]

K... Point was to people in here probably was that he was a Red Wing and won us the Stanley Cup in 2002. I don't see anything really shady or out of whack about "how he became a Wing" if this is the case. I don't think a lot of people in here are going to care all that badly about how it "all went down" or whatever.

Yeah. That's the point. Most laud him FOR "how it all went down", while being totally unaware that it didn't go down that way, at all. And THAT is the point.

And while most Wings fans may not consider it "shady", how Dom became a Wing....

ALL Sabres fans consider it VERY shady. Matter of perspective.

Regardless, it's not about how "shady" one considers it. It's about the fact that so many "remember" it, or in this case MISREMEMBER it, in a way in which it never happened.

They have, effectively, revised history with their "mismemory" of the event. That is the point I'm trying to make.

Nope, I don't remember it.

LOL. I figured as much. Ask a Buffalo Sabres fan. I'm sure they'll remember it quite vividly.

Did you even read the blog post I linked?

Edited by Outsider, 19 August 2010 - 09:42 AM.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Yeah. That's the point. Most laud him FOR "how it all went down", while being totally unaware that it didn't go down that way, at all. And THAT is the point.

And while most Wings fans may not consider it "shady", how Dom became a Wing....

ALL Sabres fans consider it VERY shady. Matter of perspective.

Regardless, it's not about how "shady" one considers it. It's about the fact that so many "remember" it, or in this case MISREMEMBER it, in a way in which it never happened.

They have, effectively, revised history with their "mismemory" of the event. That is the point I'm trying to make.

That happens with pretty much anything in life. You need to figure out what you want to believe or not.

LOL. I figured as much. Ask a Buffalo Sabres fan. I'm sure they'll remember it quite vividly.

Did you even read the blog post I linked?

Yep, I read it.

[softshoes]

I wanted to say scapegoat is the wrong word here, then I looked up the definition:

–noun a person or group made to bear the blame for others or to suffer in their place.

The word gets thrown around to easily but at the time there were people that blamed him for the early playoff loses(maybe they do even now). Joseph didn't cost the Wings their offense did. Maybe Lewis is a better choice, you could get arguments on either side.

As much as I loved what Hasek did for us in 02 I equally disliked what he did to the team when he came back. He created a goalie problem when there shouldn't have been one. Cujo has every right to hate his time here.