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Penguins sign Arron Asham


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#101 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

Helm would move up to the 3rd line in my argument. Asham would play with Abby and Eaves. Please don't make me repeat that for the third time.



I will. I'm going to go watch MMA right now, since that's what this whole thread is really about. :rolleyes:



Just so you know, I actually slept pretty well last night.

I was just posting my opinion on the issue, and not treating it as a life or death thing.

Maybe if you tried being passionate about some issue on these boards, then you could come off the same way.

The issue is a little upsetting to me, but I never said it was the end of the world for Detroit.

Passion and caring too much is overrated. *shrugs*

#102 Heaten

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:20 AM

So to you, Modano is the difference between the Wings having one of the deepest offenses in the league or having a forward lineup that's weak as hell??

Think that's overstating it a bit? And we're going to lose assets either way.

Williams is injury prone and plays without heart. Detroit knew this. And he never was going to get as many minutes as he did on the crappy teams where he put up points. Even though Detroit gave him ample time on the PP because of his right handed shot. Yes, the leg break was unfortunate, but Williams was a bad signing. Likely a desperate one when Holland lost Sammy and Hudler.

And you're forgetting Draper, unless you're thinking he'll retire and the Wings will take the cap hit. That was also a bad contract by Holland.


I think a scoring 3rd line (which would be a 2nd line on most teams) is better than two 4th lines.

As for Draper he'd be 13th forward and in rotation when injuries occure. But thanks for proving my point that Wings don't more 4th liners. We're already have a mess in that department. No sense in adding more drama to it.

Yes Draper's contract is bad now. He's overpaid by $600-$700 yr. However, in 2007/08 his contract was brilliant. Same thing will be said about Zetterberg and Franzen in 5-6 years.

#103 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 11:24 AM

I think a scoring 3rd line (which would be a 2nd line on most teams) is better than two 4th lines.
As for Draper he'd be 13th forward and in rotation when injuries occure. But thanks for proving my point that Wings don't more 4th liners. We're already have a mess in that department. No sense in adding more drama to it.

Yes Draper's contract is bad now. He's overpaid by $600-$700 yr. However, in 2007/08 his contract was brilliant. Same thing will be said about Zetterberg and Franzen in 5-6 years.


Hudler/Helm/Cleary is a 4th line?

That might be the best 3rd line in hockey. Two great checkers, a skilled scorer, and two hard working players that won't be afraid to get in front of the net. Also, Helm and Cleary are very good defensively.
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#104 esteef

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 01:33 PM

I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap.

In these threads about adding grit people always make the argument that guys who will hit, fight, and aren't total goons aren't out there to be had, at least not for cheap. Asham is a good example of a guy that was.

And I have to admire your dedication in this thread GMR, but it's a lost cause dude. If Holland had signed Asham, there would be a 20 page thread about how great the guy is and what a positive addition to the team he is. Because he signed elsewhere, most of what you're going to get is how Holland knows what he's doing and Asham is useless.

Obviously we don't know if Holland ever contacted him or Asham ever would've played here. But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.

It's not like he was saying Holland was a terrible GM or the Wings suck. Just pointing out someone who was out there and being disappointed we didn't get him, when the argument is often made these guys don't exist or will cost too much.

:thumbup:

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#105 Buppy

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:07 PM

I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap.

...

But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.

...

Do you really think taking Asham instead of Modano would make this team any better? Talking about it is one thing. Saying it sucks and is worse than Williams is another. Even at the most optimistic, you can't possibly consider Asham anything other than a lateral move at this point. And that's only if you consider his fighting ability to be valuable.

Since when has a solid 3rd line center been someone who can't check and has never been known as a great defensive forward?

I know we have other forwards that can play defense, but it'd be nice to have a 3rd line with more than one defensive forward. Modano will be asked to change his whole mindset around and take a complete back seat on this team in a role he's not all that familiar with.

It might work or it may not. Don't know why everyone thinks it'll be a success without reservations. You do realize that he's not a star anymore?

Secondary scoring is what Modano's role will be, same as it was last year in Dallas. (And he'd been transitioning to that role for a couple years prior.) He's not expected to be a star. He was successful on the third line with crap linemates in Dallas. That's why people think he can do just as well or better here with Hudler and Cleary.

Sure it would be nice to have a defensive forward centering the third line. It would be nice to have a team full of Selke candidates who would also compete for the Art Ross. But we don't need it. A third line doesn't have to be a checking line. The other three lines are all capable of playing excellent defense. Besides, the one thing you keep ignoring is that Asham isn't any better than Modano defensively. He's never been known for his defense either. He's never really been a feature on any PK. He's not even that prolific of a hitter. If you're so concerned about defense, why would you want Asham over Miller? Miller is much younger than Asham (something you also seem to value), has similar offensive ability (and maybe some untapped potential), hits just as much, and is far better defensively. Yet you'd take Asham. What is it Asham does that Miller doesn't? Oh, but that's not why you want Asham...

I agree that our third line would be good enough without Modano, but it's also better with him. And I believe that improvement is much better then we'd get from Asham's mediocre fighting skills. Our third and fourth lines are better and harder to play against with Modano than they would be with Asham.

#106 Original-Six

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:08 PM

Arron Asham is lazy and sucks

#107 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:54 PM

I think a scoring 3rd line (which would be a 2nd line on most teams) is better than two 4th lines.

As for Draper he'd be 13th forward and in rotation when injuries occure. But thanks for proving my point that Wings don't more 4th liners. We're already have a mess in that department. No sense in adding more drama to it.

Yes Draper's contract is bad now. He's overpaid by $600-$700 yr. However, in 2007/08 his contract was brilliant. Same thing will be said about Zetterberg and Franzen in 5-6 years.

Well, you've got hyperbole down pat.

Draper's contract was brilliant? Even at a cap hit of 1.65 million, since the 08 season he's scored 17, 17, and 22 points. and was -2, -13 and -2. He plays 15 minutes or less and isn't a key faceoff guy and wasn't relied upon to kill penalties. In 08 maybe his cap hit fit his contributions, but it was on overall overpayment from the start. Especially since they knew even if he retired Detroit would be stuck with his cap hit.



I love Drapes, but he's been on the gravy train since he re-signed. The contract should be evaluated based on its full term. Not just the years it's favorable.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 21 August 2010 - 03:55 PM.


#108 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:17 PM

Do you really think taking Asham instead of Modano would make this team any better? Talking about it is one thing. Saying it sucks and is worse than Williams is another. Even at the most optimistic, you can't possibly consider Asham anything other than a lateral move at this point. And that's only if you consider his fighting ability to be valuable.


Secondary scoring is what Modano's role will be, same as it was last year in Dallas. (And he'd been transitioning to that role for a couple years prior.) He's not expected to be a star. He was successful on the third line with crap linemates in Dallas. That's why people think he can do just as well or better here with Hudler and Cleary.

Sure it would be nice to have a defensive forward centering the third line. It would be nice to have a team full of Selke candidates who would also compete for the Art Ross. But we don't need it. A third line doesn't have to be a checking line. The other three lines are all capable of playing excellent defense. Besides, the one thing you keep ignoring is that Asham isn't any better than Modano defensively. He's never been known for his defense either. He's never really been a feature on any PK. He's not even that prolific of a hitter. If you're so concerned about defense, why would you want Asham over Miller? Miller is much younger than Asham (something you also seem to value), has similar offensive ability (and maybe some untapped potential), hits just as much, and is far better defensively. Yet you'd take Asham. What is it Asham does that Miller doesn't? Oh, but that's not why you want Asham...

I agree that our third line would be good enough without Modano, but it's also better with him. And I believe that improvement is much better then we'd get from Asham's mediocre fighting skills. Our third and fourth lines are better and harder to play against with Modano than they would be with Asham.


Miller is the same thing as Eaves, only slightly worse at everything.

Asham is a more physical 4th liner than him. The 4th line is not known as a shut down line, so that's not going to be Asham's job anyway. I think he'll do a better job throwing his body around and being a sparkplug for the team.

The 3rd line is supposed to be a shutdown line. You don't want your top two forwards to constantly be given shutdown duties. This 3rd line we have now can't shut anyone down. Obviously, our 4th line won't get enough minutes to be matched up against the other team's top line.

Oh and Asham is not a mediocre fighter. Even if he was, that would be better than anyone else's fighting skills on our current team. Don't know why you keep bringing that up aimlessly. Yeah, I like the fact that he fights, but if you think that's my only argument then you either haven't been reading this thread, or you're running out of things to say and are just reaching.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 21 August 2010 - 04:22 PM.

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#109 Jesusberg

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:28 PM

I like Asham, for sure... he's a gritty player who busts his butt every night. That being said, I'm still glad we got Modano. He's got the wheels and talent to play Detroit's puck possession game, and he's not a slouch defensively. Detroit wins playing a finesse game... defense with the sticks instead of pounding the offense. Then when the playoffs hit, everyone picks up their physical play.

There are times I wish Detroit was a more physical team, with grinders and enforcers, but I look at the success they've had and realize I'm happy with the way they've done things. Like I said, Asham would have been a good signing, but in the long run of the season I think Modano will work out just as well.

Plus, for anyone dogging Holland for the Modano signing, I'm pretty sure Ilitch had a huge hand in bringing Mo here. He was happier than a kid in a candy store during the press conference. Either way, let's stop looking at what the Red Wings don't have, and check out what they do; probably the deepest 3 lines in the league. This is shaping up to be an awesome season :thumbup:

#110 Original-Six

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:30 PM

This 3rd line we have now can't shut anyone down.


Yeah it sucks instead they will be able to consistently score and be arguably the best 3rd line in the NHL.

#111 Doc Holliday

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:32 PM

Miller is the same thing as Eaves, only slightly worse at everything.

Asham is a more physical 4th liner than him. The 4th line is not known as a shut down line, so that's not going to be Asham's job anyway. I think he'll do a better job throwing his body around and being a sparkplug for the team.

The 3rd line is supposed to be a shutdown line. You don't want your top two forwards to constantly be given shutdown duties. This 3rd line we have now can't shut anyone down. Obviously, our 4th line won't get enough minutes to be matched up against the other team's top line.

Oh and Asham is not a mediocre fighter. Even if he was, that would be better than anyone else's fighting skills on our current team. Don't know why you keep bringing that up aimlessly. Yeah, I like the fact that he fights, but if you think that's my only argument then you either haven't been reading this thread, or you're running out of things to say and are just reaching.


I don't understand why you consider the Wings to require a shutdown line considering Babcock matches up his top lines against the opposition's most nights.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 21 August 2010 - 04:33 PM.

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#112 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:36 PM

Yeah it sucks instead they will be able to consistently score and be arguably the best 3rd line in the NHL.


Yes, they're going to consistently score and dominate everyone else. No one can stop this wonderful line. Get a grip man.

Like I've said before, a line full of pretty boy skilled players is not traditionally a successful third line. We need a 3rd line more like the one we had in 2008.

The scoring will be plentiful from the top 2 lines, from Hudler and a healthy Cleary. Adding a 40 year old has been doesn't increase our scoring by that much.

I don't understand why you consider the Wings to require a shutdown line considering Babcock matches up his top lines against the opposition's most nights.


To give Hank and Pavel a little break so they can concentrate on offense more.

What Babcock does hasn't always worked by pairing our best players against theirs. Besides, guys like Bertuzzi and Homer are in the top 6, and they're not that great defensively.

Why do you think Modano will be great here? Just because he scored over 1,000 points in his career? He's not that same player anymore, or else Dallas would have likely kept him.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 21 August 2010 - 04:37 PM.

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#113 Doc Holliday

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:46 PM

To give Hank and Pavel a little break so they can concentrate on offense more.

What Babcock does hasn't always worked by pairing our best players against theirs. Besides, guys like Bertuzzi and Homer are in the top 6, and they're not that great defensively.

Why do you think Modano will be great here? Just because he scored over 1,000 points in his career? He's not that same player anymore, or else Dallas would have likely kept him.


I never said Modano would be great here.

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#114 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:53 PM

I never said Modano would be great here.


Sorry, but I can't remember who said what.

Honestly, there's no telling what our 3rd line will be come playoff time, so maybe me and the others discussing 3rd line possibilities, whether it be with Modano or without him on the team, are overreacting slightly. Someone might be injured or maybe Hudler and Modano won't work out together, prompting Babcock to change these line pairings.

But there's nothing else to talk about in the offseason than speculation, since nothing else is currently going on.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 21 August 2010 - 05:17 PM.

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#115 mindfly

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:23 PM

GMR, what would you say about this team that could have been if there was no modano nor salei (and no miller)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmström
Hudler-Flippula-Franzen
Bertuzzi-Helm-Cleary
Asham-Abdelkader-Eaves

Lidas-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Sutton

Actually the more i look at it the more i wanted it, i would never feel more safe back there if sutton was our 6th Dman, the 4th would do wonders and asham could fight if he must, the questionmark is the third line when bertuzzi doesn't have zetterberg or datsyuk next to him and he is not physical anymore, helm has got questionable hands, but it would probably be alright on defense...

Edited by mindfly, 21 August 2010 - 05:24 PM.


#116 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:27 PM

GMR, what would you say about this team that could have been if there was no modano nor salei (and no miller)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmström
Hudler-Flippula-Franzen
Bertuzzi-Helm-Cleary
Asham-Abdelkader-Eaves

Lidas-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Ericsson-Sutton

Actually the more i look at it the more i wanted it, i would never feel more safe back there if sutton was our 6th Dman, the 4th would do wonders and asham could fight if he must, the questionmark is the third line when bertuzzi doesn't have zetterberg or datsyuk next to him and he is not physical anymore, helm has got questionable hands, but it would probably be alright on defense...


Good team either way. Only problem would be Sutton's contract. Unlike Asham, he wouldn't have come cheap.

I'd flip Hudler with Bertuzzi. Hudler and Helm looked good together in the 2008 playoffs, when they played with Mac/Malts. Cleary is better offensively than either of those grinders.

Also, I think Bertuzzi should play with Franzen. They could present some problems for opponents, as we saw briefly in the playoffs last year when they were paired together.
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#117 mindfly

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:33 PM

Good team either way. Only problem would be Sutton's contract. Unlike Asham, he wouldn't have come cheap.

I'd flip Hudler with Bertuzzi. Hudler and Helm looked good together in the 2008 playoffs, when they played with Mac/Malts. Cleary is better offensively than either of those grinders.

Also, I think Bertuzzi should play with Franzen. They could present some problems for opponents, as we saw briefly in the playoffs last year when they were paired together.

Sutton+Asham equals Modano+Salei+Miller (include all bonuses of course) salary cap wise.

He signed a 2year worth 2.15M per season to play for Anaheim, he would probably accept the same deal and go to Detroit instead,

Edited by mindfly, 21 August 2010 - 05:34 PM.


#118 Buppy

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:05 PM

Miller is the same thing as Eaves, only slightly worse at everything.

Asham is a more physical 4th liner than him. The 4th line is not known as a shut down line, so that's not going to be Asham's job anyway. I think he'll do a better job throwing his body around and being a sparkplug for the team.

The 3rd line is supposed to be a shutdown line. You don't want your top two forwards to constantly be given shutdown duties. This 3rd line we have now can't shut anyone down. Obviously, our 4th line won't get enough minutes to be matched up against the other team's top line.

Oh and Asham is not a mediocre fighter. Even if he was, that would be better than anyone else's fighting skills on our current team. Don't know why you keep bringing that up aimlessly. Yeah, I like the fact that he fights, but if you think that's my only argument then you either haven't been reading this thread, or you're running out of things to say and are just reaching.

You keep talking about lines like they have set roles. Show me where in the rulebook it states how many minutes a 4th line is allowed to play or what the 3rd line has to do. Hey, most 4th lines are made up of scrub borderline NHLers. Maybe we should swap Helm and Abby for a couple plugs that can only play 5 minutes a night, since that's what teams normally have. Maybe we should trade Pav and Hank for a couple one-dimensional scorers, since those are the kind of players on most top lines. No, you use what you have in whatever is the best way to use them.

Whether you want our top forwards in a shutdown role is irrelevant. They will be matched up against opposing top lines as often as not. That's the way the Wings have run for years. Even when the Grind Line was at its prime, Fedorov and Yzerman still saw plenty of time in shutdown roles, and Huds-Helm-Cleary is no prime Grind Line. Our top two forwards happen to be two of, if not the two, best defensive forwards in the league. It would be stupid to not use that aspect of their game.

Our projected 4th line will likely play a lot more minutes than the typical 4th line. And a big chunk of those minutes will be on the PK or against opposing scoring lines. Filppula and Franzen are good enough defensively and offensively to handle most 2nd lines around the league (and if you put Cleary with them instead of Bert, they could contain most top lines). That is more than enough defensive ability in the forward units that we can afford to use the 3rd line as a more offensively geared unit. Making the 4th line worse defensively in order to make the 3rd line better defensively (and worse offensively) just to conform to some preconceived notion of what you think a 3rd line is supposed to be is silly.

Helm hits just as well (or better) than Asham. With his speed and defense, he creates problems that Asham couldn't. Modano's offensive capabilities cause problems that Helm couldn't on the third line. The loss of some defensive ability on the third line doesn't hurt us, since the overall defensive ability of the team stays the same. We're better with Modano.

And Asham is not more physical than Miller. He might hit a little harder, but not any more often. Asham isn't known as a big, punishing hitter. He's not scaring anyone. He's not intimidating anyone. He's not hurting anyone. He has nothing over Miller (and is worse in some ways) except his ability to fight.

#119 Buppy

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:16 PM

Sutton+Asham equals Modano+Salei+Miller (include all bonuses of course) salary cap wise.

He signed a 2year worth 2.15M per season to play for Anaheim, he would probably accept the same deal and go to Detroit instead,

Since the bonus cushion allows us to go over the cap, it's not really equal. We'd also have to lose Ritola to make that work, or get Abby to sign for ~$650k. (Though one of Miller/Ritola is likely gone anyway, so not much different.)

Bigger problem I'd have is that Sutton is way overpaid for a 3rd pair guy who we'd be lucky to have for more than half the season.

#120 PatKaneInHumane

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:08 PM

Are you aware that there are people in this world that have a severe medical condition which causes them to be that way? My mother for instance is one of those people. She is a truck driver that has bad knees and a bad back from driving the truck but you probably do not care about that case either. Oh well I am not one of those people I am 6'4" 245lbs and I exercise every day. I would love to see you say something like to my mother in front of me. Probably never happen though you are probably just an internet tough guy. I doubt very seriously you would say that to someones face. Just my thought.What do you think. Oh I am sorry you probably do not have a brain. I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.





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