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Penguins sign Arron Asham


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#141 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:16 AM

When the team wins the Stanley Cup, every player is an important part to that victory.


Adam Burrish? Is that you? Adam?

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA, 22 August 2010 - 02:17 AM.

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#142 titanium2

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:58 AM

iirc Asham wanted to stay in PA/near Philly.


Where did you hear that? Any chance you got a link?

#143 esteef

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:50 AM

As for Asham, I don't see how what he adds is so prolific it would be better than what would be lost. Hitting/fight ≠ scoring. Sorry, but at the end of the night its about who scored more goals, not who won more fights or had more big hits.

And there it is. It's just that simple folks, fill our team with nothing but scorers and the Cup is ours! :thumbdown:

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#144 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:05 PM

Actually, it started with 'this sucks' and it's 'worse than getting Williams instead of Prospal'. Little over the top.

And no one's saying management is above criticism. Some of us just think Modano is better for the team than Asham would be. Stop acting like your being repressed. We all have our opinions, all we're doing is discussing them. (Though I would say, as a general rule, Holland does a lot better managing the roster than any of us would, but that's beside the point.)

In regards to Draper, I'll say that it's easy to judge a contract in hindsight. Sure, we could probably replace his value for half (or less) the cost, and possibly use that savings to improve somewhere else. His off-ice contributions might not be missed. Nor, I think, would our reputation for treating our players well have suffered had we not resigned Draper (or given him less money, or term). Oh well. No roster in any sport has ever been perfect. Unless you can point out some example that would make us a notably better team without Draper's contract, then it's pointless to complain about it. But I don't think you can get a difference-maker with his salary. At best you're looking at a marginal improvement in the bottom lines. Wow.

Draper has been a valuable member of this franchise for many years, we wouldn't be that much better off without him, so why complain? It's not like we spent $5.6M on a FA goalie whose resume was basically one good 13 game stretch (and we're now risking our reputation by ungraciously disposing of him).

I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly.

Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup.

But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup."

And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 22 August 2010 - 12:17 PM.


#145 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:11 PM

Seriously? When the team wins the Stanley Cup, every player is an important piece to that victory. Surprised you can't understand that. /facepalm

With that kind of logic, what are you going to say if Red Wings win the cup next year? "erm...gee wiz, Modano only scored 4 goals, Holland made a bad decision signing him instead of Asham", [...] "Slappies are always here cheerleading Holland after he builds cup winning championship teams, they don't understand that Holland should have signed 'Asham instead'" :unsure:

btw, Dallas Drake only scored 4 points, guess he wasn't a piece of the 08 cup victory either? (by your logic)


First off, no every player isn't important to a Cup victory. It's great if they are, but typically there's a couple guys at least who weren't difference makers.

Second, that's called sarcasm, sport. My very next sentence I refer back to where I said Drapes was earning his contract in '08.

"Draper's a leader for us with his energy level and his commitment," Red Wings coach Mike Babcock said. - But let me guess, Babcock doesn't have the hockey intelligence as you? Can't wait to read the excuses trying to discredit this one... ;)

And there it is. One quote from Babcock, so how could we ever question the Wings??

You keep talking about how that extra money couldn't have gotten the Wings anyone else. The Wings are tight against the cap. Maybe you don't understand how the cap works, but it's not like any money saved from Drapes contract would have to be used one to one for another player. It's about the total cap space, and I bet Holland would love to have every dollar he could get to work with.

I said that? Really? Lets dig back to.... page 5: :blink:

Blink indeed. So you're saying his contract was "brilliant" then, but he's overpaid now? That doesn't make a lick of sense. How can the same contract be brilliant and overpaid?

Again, if you had read what I previously wrote, I said a contract should be evaluated on its full term. Not just on a season by season basis. Because of course these guys are going to be worth it on the front end.

Says the guy with poor reading comprehension skills. Says the guy who discredits Draper 3 goals and 4 points in the 08 playoffs (despite lifting the cup), while Drake had the same number of points that same run, Gasp! I'll say it again so maybe it'll sink in... When the team wins the Stanley Cup, every player is an important part to that victory.

That's pretty ironic considering you missed that I was kidding. Read the sentences directly after the one about Drapers points.

You're great at putting words in my mouth and inventing arguments so you can shoot them down.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 22 August 2010 - 12:24 PM.


#146 Doc Holliday

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:26 PM

Harold, the reason people got into an 8 page argument was because a certain poster said that the asham signing sucked, that he would have been a "terrific" addition, and that this was comparable to signing Williams last year when we could have had Prospal or Grier.

In my opinion this isn't even close to any of those things.

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#147 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:29 PM

Harold, the reason people got into an 8 page argument was because a certain poster said that the asham signing sucked, that he would have been a "terrific" addition, and that this was comparable to signing Williams last year when we could have had Prospal or Grier.

In my opinion this isn't even close to any of those things.

It started that way, but then that poster actually got into a civil discussion about the lineup, in my opinion.

Most of this thread has not been about what you've just said, that it actually isn't like those signings. I think that would've been a pretty short discussion.

EDIT: and to be honest, I'm sure there's an element of all of us turning on each other out of boredom waiting for the season to start, when there's really stuff to fight about. :P

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 22 August 2010 - 12:46 PM.


#148 Rivalred

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 01:00 PM

As far as the Draper comments, Helm is slowly and surely replacing him. Speed, two-way play, face-off ability, and etc are all there. Drapes will be phased out like Malts (given Miller/Eaves replacing him).

Asham signing? Good deal for the Pens. Question is, is Asham any good at taking face-offs?
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#149 Shaman

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 01:32 PM

And there it is. It's just that simple folks, fill our team with nothing but scorers and the Cup is ours! :thumbdown:

esteef

Hey, remember that one time that one fight over came a 2 goal lead because that one guy just thoroughly kicked the other guys ass? I don't either.

In a game that is WON by having MORE goals than the other team. A fight is a spectacle, any gains or losses in momentum that it causes is purely intangible, where as addition of scoring depth is a tangible addition, that in the end of the game, can be measured, and does have direct impact on the end results of the game.
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und bin im Wasser verbrannt
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#150 esteef

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 01:52 PM

Hey, remember that one time that one fight over came a 2 goal lead because that one guy just thoroughly kicked the other guys ass? I don't either.

In a game that is WON by having MORE goals than the other team. A fight is a spectacle, any gains or losses in momentum that it causes is purely intangible, where as addition of scoring depth is a tangible addition, that in the end of the game, can be measured, and does have direct impact on the end results of the game.

Stanley Cup winning goals:

1996-97 - Darren McCarty
1997-98 - Martin LaPointe
2001-02 - Brandan Shanahan

Yep, I guess fighting players are useless. :thumbdown:

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#151 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:00 PM

As far as the Draper comments, Helm is slowly and surely replacing him. Speed, two-way play, face-off ability, and etc are all there. Drapes will be phased out like Malts (given Miller/Eaves replacing him).

Asham signing? Good deal for the Pens. Question is, is Asham any good at taking face-offs?

That's part of it. Draper isn't relied upon for faceoffs like he used to be.

He took 319 in 81 games last season. 1 more than Abdelkader took in 50 games. And Abdelkader only lost 17 more draws than Drapes. Not bad for a rookie.

#152 Shaman

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:07 PM

Stanley Cup winning goals:

1996-97 - Darren McCarty
1997-98 - Martin LaPointe
2001-02 - Brandan Shanahan

Yep, I guess fighting players are useless. :thumbdown:

esteef

Yea, because Shanahan and McCarty were enforcers.... McCarty wasn't having a career year scoring. As for the 98... 4-1 final... not like that series the wings didn't dominate the flyers the time...oh wait... get back to me with some game 7 heroics, not when youre talking about the final blow in a sweep.

PS BRENDAN Shanahan was no enforcer he is one of the best point producing forwards in the game, who could also stand up for himself. If you are really trying to compare Asham to any of those three, please tell the nurse to up your meds.

Edited by Shaman464, 22 August 2010 - 02:08 PM.

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#153 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:08 PM

Hey, remember that one time that one fight over came a 2 goal lead because that one guy just thoroughly kicked the other guys ass? I don't either.

In a game that is WON by having MORE goals than the other team. A fight is a spectacle, any gains or losses in momentum that it causes is purely intangible, where as addition of scoring depth is a tangible addition, that in the end of the game, can be measured, and does have direct impact on the end results of the game.

Remember March 26, 1997? Don't you think that had something to do with uniting the Wings and helping them get past the Avs to win the Cup? Because the players do. They had plenty of offensive talent years before that, but couldn't get it done.

It takes all sorts of players fulfilling different roles and creating team chemistry. It's not the oversimplified example you just used of more offense = better team. Besides, Asham is not an enforcer. He's more of a grinder who will fight and can score some goals.

And as I've beat to death, this is not a deal that would've made or broken the Wings. Just a gritty player who the Pens got for cheap. Would've been nice if Detroit could pick up a guy like Asham.

#154 esteef

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:38 PM

Yea, because Shanahan and McCarty were enforcers.... McCarty wasn't having a career year scoring. As for the 98... 4-1 final... not like that series the wings didn't dominate the flyers the time...oh wait... get back to me with some game 7 heroics, not when youre talking about the final blow in a sweep.

PS BRENDAN Shanahan was no enforcer he is one of the best point producing forwards in the game, who could also stand up for himself. If you are really trying to compare Asham to any of those three, please tell the nurse to up your meds.


So your response is basically "But But But Nuh-uh!"
The fact remains that fighting players like DMac and LaPointe, who are very similar to Asham, were present on Cup winning teams when it mattered most and not as some sideshow entertainment for the MMA fans. Neither of those players were brought in for their "scoring", yet their contributions, scoring and otherwise, were very important in the overall result. But since they drop the gloves, which you despise, they ain't worth s*** apparently compared to a 40 year old player who may or may not put up points like he used to.

esteef

Edited by esteef, 22 August 2010 - 02:39 PM.

"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#155 Shaman

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 03:47 PM

So your response is basically "But But But Nuh-uh!"
The fact remains that fighting players like DMac and LaPointe, who are very similar to Asham, were present on Cup winning teams when it mattered most and not as some sideshow entertainment for the MMA fans. Neither of those players were brought in for their "scoring", yet their contributions, scoring and otherwise, were very important in the overall result. But since they drop the gloves, which you despise, they ain't worth s*** apparently compared to a 40 year old player who may or may not put up points like he used to.

esteef

First you built a beautiful strawman, but, as I even put in my sig, I love fights, its the whole enforcer playing style that I feel is an outdated role in the NHL. As for them being present on the cup winning teams, so were Boyd Devereaux and Mathieu Dandenault... they were very present on those teams. Not every role player is the key to a cup winning team, and while I will relent the point of the March 26 game being the one that brought the team together. But to compare DMac and Lapointe to Asham is laughable, both Lapointe and DMac were better scorers in the dead puck era, and Lapointe was clutch in the playoffs. Asham is a career fourth liner, and is pretty poor defensively. He rarely played on the PK (which would make him less valuable than Miller or Eaves), never scored that many points (averages 20 points a season, so, again no upgrade over eaves or miller), and with the amount of time he spends in the box he would hinder the wings ability to roll four balanced lines. Can you actually tell me what he adds that NO ONE on the team has other than the willingness (not the ability) to drop the gloves?
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#156 chrisdetroit

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 03:50 PM

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#157 esteef

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 03:57 PM

First you built a beautiful strawman, but, as I even put in my sig, I love fights, its the whole enforcer playing style that I feel is an outdated role in the NHL. As for them being present on the cup winning teams, so were Boyd Devereaux and Mathieu Dandenault... they were very present on those teams. Not every role player is the key to a cup winning team, and while I will relent the point of the March 26 game being the one that brought the team together. But to compare DMac and Lapointe to Asham is laughable, both Lapointe and DMac were better scorers in the dead puck era, and Lapointe was clutch in the playoffs. Asham is a career fourth liner, and is pretty poor defensively. He rarely played on the PK (which would make him less valuable than Miller or Eaves), never scored that many points (averages 20 points a season, so, again no upgrade over eaves or miller), and with the amount of time he spends in the box he would hinder the wings ability to roll four balanced lines. Can you actually tell me what he adds that NO ONE on the team has other than the willingness (not the ability) to drop the gloves?

Yes, a potential Cup winning goal.

esteef
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#158 Stolberg

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 03:59 PM

Where did you hear that? Any chance you got a link?




i've seen it said a couple times online, so there probably isn't much to it ;)

it makes sense though i guess



#159 Shaman

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 04:11 PM

Yes, a potential Cup winning goal.

esteef

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJyGU09tl4

Zetterberg seems to disagree that Asham is the only person who can score a cup winning goal.
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#160 cjm502

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 04:17 PM

This thread is full of stupidity.
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