Power Forwards

[newfy 695]

The way I look at it now is there are 2 types of powerforwards, the traditional powerforward and the new age power forward. Guys like Franzen could be counted as new age power forwards. Basically they use their body and size to protect the puck, they hit but not all that often and they don't fight. Not all that rare.

The traditional type is Neely, Lindros, Shanny, Gordie etc. They'll beat you and beat you up. During the time that these guys played, Franzen would not be considered a power forward, he would more likely be considered a waste of his size. He would still be good but not a power forward. Traditional guys would fight, score and hit like trucks.

and really eva jokinen is more of a power forward then Kevin Stevens? Well Stevens 54 goal, 123 point and 254 pims in a single season beg to differ. Say what you want about him playing with Mario but Mario wasn't the one racking up those pims. Olli has one season of 100+ pims. Stevens is a textbook power forward. I read your posts and anymore I really don't know if youre serious and just know nothing about hockey, you are having a good laugh cause youre a troll, or if you were dropped a lot as a baby? Zetterberg doesn't even come close to being a power forward, some people I tell ya...

[eva unit zero 271]

The way I look at it now is there are 2 types of powerforwards, the traditional powerforward and the new age power forward. Guys like Franzen could be counted as new age power forwards. Basically they use their body and size to protect the puck, they hit but not all that often and they don't fight. Not all that rare.

The traditional type is Neely, Lindros, Shanny, Gordie etc. They'll beat you and beat you up. During the time that these guys played, Franzen would not be considered a power forward, he would more likely be considered a waste of his size. He would still be good but not a power forward. Traditional guys would fight, score and hit like trucks.

and really eva jokinen is more of a power forward then Kevin Stevens? Well Stevens 54 goal, 123 point and 254 pims in a single season beg to differ. Say what you want about him playing with Mario but Mario wasn't the one racking up those pims. Olli has one season of 100+ pims. Stevens is a textbook power forward. I read your posts and anymore I really don't know if youre serious and just know nothing about hockey, you are having a good laugh cause youre a troll, or if you were dropped a lot as a baby? Zetterberg doesn't even come close to being a power forward, some people I tell ya...

I said before, I was going by the definition of a forward who uses his strength and size as his primary tool to create offense. Jokinen doesn't rack up the PIMs like Stevens did, but if you take away the "you have to have a ton of PIMs" definition and just make it a big strong guy who uses his strength as a major tool, then Stevens wasn't even the primary PF on his line. He was secondary to Lemieux and he received a lot of offensive help from not NEEDING to crash through guys. Jokinen has spent almost his entire career playing solo, and using both his size and skill to post impressive offensive numbers. If he fought 3 times a season, he'd be universally considered an elite power forward.

[pockets 9]

If i were to give Franzen a type id call him a power sniper

[Shady Ultima 40]

I said before, I was going by the definition of a forward who uses his strength and size as his primary tool to create offense. Jokinen doesn't rack up the PIMs like Stevens did, but if you take away the "you have to have a ton of PIMs" definition and just make it a big strong guy who uses his strength as a major tool, then Stevens wasn't even the primary PF on his line. He was secondary to Lemieux and he received a lot of offensive help from not NEEDING to crash through guys. Jokinen has spent almost his entire career playing solo, and using both his size and skill to post impressive offensive numbers. If he fought 3 times a season, he'd be universally considered an elite power forward.

That's fine. Now explain how Z is a power forward? The guy isn't that big, and uses more his skill, speed and intelligence then his body strength to win.

[eva unit zero 271]

That's fine. Now explain how Z is a power forward? The guy isn't that big, and uses more his skill, speed and intelligence then his body strength to win.

Compare Datsyuk's style of carrying the puck through the neutral zone or into the offensive zone to Zetterberg's.

Datsyuk typically skates away from opposing players and attempts to open up passing lanes. Zetterberg, on the other hand, will use his body to shield the puck as he pushes through opposing players to move forward. While both are capable of performing the other's style, it's a fairly consistent difference you will see. If he is capable of pushing through opposing players to gain offensive position while carrying the puck, and does this consistently, that is a strong argument that he could be considered a power forward.

Now let's see all the responses from the enforcer slappies.

[Finnish Wing 110]

LOL. Why would PIMs have anything to do with being a power forward? Power forward is a player who plays physically to create offense. PIMs are only evidence of taking penalties; you get penalties when you're too slow and need to hook for example. Fights are not needed either. Zetterberg isn't a power forward. Nash is. Nash mostly uses his size and physical game to create offense. Zetterberg is more of a skill-guy. I wouldn't call Steve Downie a power forward though, yet. You still need to be able to get more than 50 points at least in this league to be called one.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Compare Datsyuk's style of carrying the puck through the neutral zone or into the offensive zone to Zetterberg's.

Datsyuk typically skates away from opposing players and attempts to open up passing lanes. Zetterberg, on the other hand, will use his body to shield the puck as he pushes through opposing players to move forward. While both are capable of performing the other's style, it's a fairly consistent difference you will see. If he is capable of pushing through opposing players to gain offensive position while carrying the puck, and does this consistently, that is a strong argument that he could be considered a power forward.

Now let's see all the responses from the enforcer slappies.

If you are comparing players to Dats, I think that most would look like power forwards. Dats has some of the best hands in the game today, and most players have to use their body more when carrying the puck. I don't think you will get much (if any) support for your claim that Z is a power forward. I don't see how he fits even your definition of a power forward.

The rest of your original list looks alright. I don't know if Homer can be considered a power forward though. He certainly uses his size in the zone, but his puck-handling is sub-par to the point where is isn't a substantial threat when rushing the puck.

In response to the enforcer slappies comment, please see my last post in this thread. It is apparent that your knowledge of fighting in the NHL is severely flawed. If you're going to argue playing styles (which is a heated subject on this forum), please get your facts correct.

[newfy 695]

Compare Datsyuk's style of carrying the puck through the neutral zone or into the offensive zone to Zetterberg's.

Datsyuk typically skates away from opposing players and attempts to open up passing lanes. Zetterberg, on the other hand, will use his body to shield the puck as he pushes through opposing players to move forward. While both are capable of performing the other's style, it's a fairly consistent difference you will see. If he is capable of pushing through opposing players to gain offensive position while carrying the puck, and does this consistently, that is a strong argument that he could be considered a power forward.

Now let's see all the responses from the enforcer slappies.

Okay so we're going to use the most skilled player in the league in Datsyuk to compare whether or not a guy is a power forward. Heres an idea, lets compare Zetterberg's style to an in his prime Eric Lindros. Wow all of a sudden Zetterberg doesn't look like he uses his body that much. Seriously using that datsyuk comparison you could make an argument for Leino being a power forward because he uses his body to shield the puck down low.

LOL. Why would PIMs have anything to do with being a power forward? Power forward is a player who plays physically to create offense. PIMs are only evidence of taking penalties; you get penalties when you're too slow and need to hook for example. Fights are not needed either. Zetterberg isn't a power forward. Nash is. Nash mostly uses his size and physical game to create offense. Zetterberg is more of a skill-guy. I wouldn't call Steve Downie a power forward though, yet. You still need to be able to get more than 50 points at least in this league to be called one.

Fights have actually always been a showing of true power forwards. Guys that have the power to beat the s*** out of you if you mess with them, they will run you over and play physically to play offense. Youre right PIMs aren't needed, but generally a guy who plays like a real power forward will get them from roughing calls, boarding, fighting etc because of the style of game they play. I wouldn't say someone needs 100 pims to be a power forward but if they have a tonne of hits where penalties weren't called and some fights against fairly tough guys where they show they can handle themself in a fight then they are a power forward.

And really EVA? The enforcer slappies?... More like the people who watched hockey before the lock out if youre seriously considering Z a power forward. Power forwards are good players who excel at all physical parts of the game, Z doesn't even hit hardly and never fights. Fighting is a physical part of the game. You don't have to just be good at being phyisical to go to the net, you have to be physical in every aspect of the game

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Apparently, a person who realizes that power forwards have been historically equated with fighting by those around the NHL, is an enforcer slappy.

[newfy 695]

Apparently, a person who realizes that power forwards have been historically equated with fighting by those around the NHL, is an enforcer slappy.

Yeah theres a reason why NHL network counted down the top 10 power forwards of the 90s and had Roberts, Shanny, Lindros, Neely, Tkatchuk etc. Yeah knowing something about hockey makes you an enforcer slappy now

[dawings1905 2]

I agree.

That was always the definition in the past, and I think the lack of many players like that nowadays has prompted many to include guys who don't fit the definition (like say Fraznen).

So what we have now is a variation of the power forward, but definitely not the same thing as what there was in the late 80's and early 90's.

And this is why it always turns into a huge psssing contest. Because some on here want to make things absolutes. Like it is possible to say that Power forwards were always defined in black and white in the past. Yeah right. According to GMR I guess, Websters defined Power forwards in the 80's and 90's. OK. Well like it or not, Most consider Franzen a Power Forward in todays game. You can either adjust, or hold onto the past like it is coming back. Kinda like the guy in the room (you know that guy that drives everyone nuts) that always has to act like he has been there and done that years before everyone else. "Back in the summer of 62 we used to eat nails before we walked to work 12 miles, up hill both ways, carrying our entire family home." Of course that was before folks could afford to drive their families around. You know the guy. Anyway, see below for what most consider Franzen.

Quote taken from Ansar Khan.

"Johan Franzen, who developed into one of the NHL's premier power forwards the past two seasons, will miss at least four months with a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee."

Or if you wish to see the entire article see below

Power forward -The Mule

[newfy 695]

Well with all due respect - the term "power forward" more or less came about in the 80's, and was a measuring stick for players of that era...Sorry, but many of us older-knuckle draggers such as myself still adhere to that very same definition when players of today are placed into that category.

Exactly the guys from the 80s the term was started from are the real power forwards. Guys like today are new age hybrid power forwards.

Its like comparing Killswitch engage to Black Sabbath, both are metal but killswitch is new age metal and anyone who would call Black Sabbath (cam neely is sabbath) and Killswitch (franzen is kill switch) the same variety of metal are either deaf or dumb.

[Frozen-Man 144]

The way I look at it now is there are 2 types of powerforwards, the traditional powerforward and the new age power forward. Guys like Franzen could be counted as new age power forwards. Basically they use their body and size to protect the puck, they hit but not all that often and they don't fight. Not all that rare.

I agree the term has evolved, and sadly there are very few traditional power forwards. There is not much better than watching a guy like Shanny who could score a beautiful goal and then turn around a few minutes latter and pummel a guy. I wonder if some of the reason for the change (in addition to the fact that players in general are just getting bigger) is that coaches aren't wanting their 30 goal scores to spend that much time in the penalty box.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Well with all due respect - the term "power forward" more or less came about in the 80's, and was a measuring stick for players of that era...Sorry, but many of us older-knuckle draggers such as myself still adhere to that very same definition when players of today are placed into that category.

Yeah, I don't know what that guy is getting all excited about.

Like I said, Franzen is not a traditional power forward, but a new variation of the term.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Franzen isn't a power forward. He's a legit two way forward. He doesn't play nearly physical enough to be considered a power forward.

Franzen isn't a power forward. He's a legit two way forward. He doesn't play nearly physical enough to be considered a power forward.

Sorry double post.

[funguy21 2]

I was under the impression that a power forward was a forward that used his size to get to the net. Franzen meets this desciption sure he does fight or rack up a ton of penalty minutes but doesn't change the fact that is what he is. Yeah you can say the definition of a power forward has changed with good reason. If you can get a big strong player with some puck handling skill to use his size to get to the net without racking up the penalty minutes. In my opinion that is a better player then a guy with the same skill that has a 100+ penalty minutes. You can change the name but essentially the power forwards of old times and the power forwards now were put on for a single reason and that is to use there size to produce scoring opportunities.

[eva unit zero 271]

Okay so we're going to use the most skilled player in the league in Datsyuk to compare whether or not a guy is a power forward. Heres an idea, lets compare Zetterberg's style to an in his prime Eric Lindros. Wow all of a sudden Zetterberg doesn't look like he uses his body that much. Seriously using that datsyuk comparison you could make an argument for Leino being a power forward because he uses his body to shield the puck down low.

Fights have actually always been a showing of true power forwards. Guys that have the power to beat the s*** out of you if you mess with them, they will run you over and play physically to play offense. Youre right PIMs aren't needed, but generally a guy who plays like a real power forward will get them from roughing calls, boarding, fighting etc because of the style of game they play. I wouldn't say someone needs 100 pims to be a power forward but if they have a tonne of hits where penalties weren't called and some fights against fairly tough guys where they show they can handle themself in a fight then they are a power forward.

And really EVA? The enforcer slappies?... More like the people who watched hockey before the lock out if youre seriously considering Z a power forward. Power forwards are good players who excel at all physical parts of the game, Z doesn't even hit hardly and never fights. Fighting is a physical part of the game. You don't have to just be good at being phyisical to go to the net, you have to be physical in every aspect of the game

Fighting is something that happens in hockey, that you have to be willing to do. Zetterberg is willing to fight. Fighting is NOT a measure of skill or something necessary or required to win championships. Hopefully you can get this through your cro-magnon frontal bone to your cerebral cortex.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Dude Zetterberg is nowhere near a power forward. To be a power forward, you need to score, hit, and fight. But again, just because he's fought once in his career doesn't make him a power forward..

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Fighting is something that happens in hockey, that you have to be willing to do. Zetterberg is willing to fight. Fighting is NOT a measure of skill or something necessary or required to win championships. Hopefully you can get this through your cro-magnon frontal bone to your cerebral cortex.

Zetterberg is not willing to fight. That doesn't make him any less of a player, but to say he is willing is a complete lie. He has been in one NHL fight, and he defended himself.

Zetterberg is not a power forward, and you have not presented any sufficient evidence to show that he is a power forward. If you're going to make a controversial claim, please use concrete evidence to support it.

[eva unit zero 271]

Dude Zetterberg is nowhere near a power forward. To be a power forward, you need to score, hit, and fight. But again, just because he's fought once in his career doesn't make him a power forward..

In my initial post I defined what I was calling a power forward, and named some players who fit that definition. Saying those players don't fit other definitions doesn't mean they don't fit the VALID definition I gave.

[funguy21 2]

I don't think Zetterberg is a power forward for the simple fact he does not use physical force to get to the net he more uses good position to get by players there is a different. A power forward could just skate his way through the defenders because he is strong enough to do so. Zetterberg protects the puck keeps his body between the defender and the puck, and is strong on his skates. These skills allow him by the defenders. Zetterberg could not just take the puck and power threw the defence he has to protect the puck and use angles to get by the defence. Yzerman did the same thing when he played I remember watching him in later years of his career playing in the playoffs against either the Ducks or the Oiler don't remember what team he was playing but it was him one on one against Pronger and he used his positioning keeping his body between the puck and the Pronger and got by him. He did it multiple times in that series and we can all agree that Yzerman is not a power forward. Just cause you are strong on your skates and have good positioning that allows you to get through defenders does not make you a power forward. Power forwards do not need to rely on positioning as much because they have the size and power to outright out muscle the defender. This is why I believe that Franzen is a power forward and Zetterberg is not.

I think the fighting and penalty minutes is a useless definition to use on power forwards. I mentioned it in a previous post that any coach would prefer a player that is big and can go to the net and score then a player that can go to the net and score who also is a liability because he is always in the box. You can make the argument that the power forwards get less penalties now because of the stiffer obstruction rules. There is no need for all the rough play after a rush to the net because as soon as the power forward breachs the defenders any additional contact will result in a penalty. The obstruction calls really stop the need for any retalition on the forwards part. If you draw a penalty there is really no use to give the guy a few extra shots to make the point that you won't stand for that.

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't think Zetterberg is a power forward for the simple fact he does not use physical force to get to the net he more uses good position to get by players there is a different. A power forward could just skate his way through the defenders because he is strong enough to do so. Zetterberg protects the puck keeps his body between the defender and the puck, and is strong on his skates. These skills allow him by the defenders. Zetterberg could not just take the puck and power threw the defence he has to protect the puck and use angles to get by the defence. Yzerman did the same thing when he played I remember watching him in later years of his career playing in the playoffs against either the Ducks or the Oiler don't remember what team he was playing but it was him one on one against Pronger and he used his positioning keeping his body between the puck and the Pronger and got by him. He did it multiple times in that series and we can all agree that Yzerman is not a power forward. Just cause you are strong on your skates and have good positioning that allows you to get through defenders does not make you a power forward. Power forwards do not need to rely on positioning as much because they have the size and power to outright out muscle the defender. This is why I believe that Franzen is a power forward and Zetterberg is not.

I think the fighting and penalty minutes is a useless definition to use on power forwards. I mentioned it in a previous post that any coach would prefer a player that is big and can go to the net and score then a player that can go to the net and score who also is a liability because he is always in the box. You can make the argument that the power forwards get less penalties now because of the stiffer obstruction rules. There is no need for all the rough play after a rush to the net because as soon as the power forward breachs the defenders any additional contact will result in a penalty. The obstruction calls really stop the need for any retalition on the forwards part. If you draw a penalty there is really no use to give the guy a few extra shots to make the point that you won't stand for that.

Zetterberg is sort of on the edge, but he does often push his way right through rather than go around. The pushing through is one of the things I was using to define power forwards, and it's something Zetterberg does much more than most high end scorers. Sure, not more than an Ovechkin, Iginla, Nash, Doan, or Lucic. But those guys are the kind of guys who are as close as you get to the "80s" power forward nowadays.

I'm surprised I haven't seem any backlash re:Jokinen. I was certain that was coming, because he doesn't fight.

[newfy 695]

Fighting is something that happens in hockey, that you have to be willing to do. Zetterberg is willing to fight. Fighting is NOT a measure of skill or something necessary or required to win championships. Hopefully you can get this through your cro-magnon frontal bone to your cerebral cortex.

Fighting or at least being able to give a decent push back to someone or rough it up a bit is something that happens when youre a powerforward. Also I don't have to use "big words" or insults to try to make a point.

In my initial post I defined what I was calling a power forward, and named some players who fit that definition. Saying those players don't fit other definitions doesn't mean they don't fit the VALID definition I gave.

You see the problem with everything youre saying is that you think youre basing it on a valid definition. Any definition that has Zetterberg fitting in as a powerforward is ridiculously off base. I don't get why you have to bend everything in hockey to benefit the softer players. "Oh zetterberg can fight", "Zetterberg is a powerforward". Just because they are softer players (especially your hard on for Zetterberg) doesn't mean they have to fit in to be every single thing in hockey. A great player doesn't need to be a powerforward and you don't have to come up with retarded definitions to make him seem like on

[funguy21 2]

This is a video of Zetterberg scoring a shorthanded goal. I could not find another one of him coming on the rush. However this video does show how Zetterberg is not a power forward. He is one on one with the defense and he use skill instead of power to get by the defender. You look at most of Zetterberg goals or rush to the net he will 9 time out of ten go around the defender rather then throught him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfXSKLIpREA

This is a compilation of Franzen goals. You can see most of the goals Franzen in driving to the net or in front of the net. When he gets the puck deep in the zone he has one destination and that is the net. The last goal is the is a good example he gets the rebound and there are two Predator players right infront of him instead of trying to go around he just go straight for the net. If you compare the two goals you can see Zetterbergs moves away from the defender in order to get to the net and score where as Franzen is going straight the net most of the time. Thats the difference in my opinion between power forward and a not a power forward.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Exactly the guys from the 80s the term was started from are the real power forwards. Guys like today are new age hybrid power forwards.

Its like comparing Killswitch engage to Black Sabbath, both are metal but killswitch is new age metal and anyone who would call Black Sabbath (cam neely is sabbath) and Killswitch (franzen is kill switch) the same variety of metal are either deaf or dumb.

But we can agree that they're both metal, and on top of that, relatively few bands nowadays play metal like Sabbath, whereas new bands are more likely to play metal similar to Killswitch rather than Sabbath. The genre has evolved.

Just thought I'd build on that analogy.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Datsyerberger