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Mario Lemieux- Order Of Canada


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#41 up2here

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:55 AM

Decided to start a Facebook group. I welcome everyone to join.

Facebook Group-Stevie For Order Of Canada

#42 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:01 PM

Decided to start a Facebook group. I welcome everyone to join.

Facebook Group-Stevie For Order Of Canada


yes... because a facebook group will help him with this. A facebook group helps everything. </sarcasm >

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#43 MacK_Attack

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:01 PM

Or, you could just go here:

http://www.gg.ca/pdf..._OC_2009_06.pdf

#44 up2here

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:03 PM

yes... because a facebook group will help him with this. A facebook group helps everything. </sarcasm >

Im really not a huge Facebook fan but I felt like it was better than doing nothing.

#45 toby91_ca

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:27 PM

Also, anyone who says Yzerman or Lemieux are not among the 15 best players of all time is either insane or an idiot.

I don't have Yzerman in my top 15 and I don't consider myself to be insane, or an idiot. Fact of the matter is, I think most would not include him in the top 15...maybe that means most are idiots....I guess that's possible.

To be honest, I have never seen him listed in the top 20 even, on any all-time list I have ever seen. Obviously, no one is right or wrong, but when the vast majority rate him lower than 20, I think it is unfair say someone is an idiot or insane for not including him in the top 15.

I have seen him at #24 on a list. Motown sports did a list a couple years ago and had him at #25 (and they are biased). For fun, the Hockey News had him at #78 back in 1998.

For reference, all these lists that I have seen all had Lemieux somewhere around #4.

#46 up2here

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:41 PM

I don't have Yzerman in my top 15 and I don't consider myself to be insane, or an idiot. Fact of the matter is, I think most would not include him in the top 15...maybe that means most are idiots....I guess that's possible.

To be honest, I have never seen him listed in the top 20 even, on any all-time list I have ever seen. Obviously, no one is right or wrong, but when the vast majority rate him lower than 20, I think it is unfair say someone is an idiot or insane for not including him in the top 15.

I have seen him at #24 on a list. Motown sports did a list a couple years ago and had him at #25 (and they are biased). For fun, the Hockey News had him at #78 back in 1998.

For reference, all these lists that I have seen all had Lemieux somewhere around #4.

I see your pic is the SMU logo (aka Robie Street High School) so I might have to go with idiot..just kidding. Did you ever hear the joke:
How many SMU students does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: Ah f*** it, lets just drink in the dark. Again I kid, I'm sure I am biased when it comes to Stevie but I cant think of 14 players better than him.

#47 toby91_ca

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:51 PM

I see your pic is the SMU logo (aka Robie Street High School) so I might have to go with idiot..just kidding. Did you ever hear the joke:
How many SMU students does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: Ah f*** it, lets just drink in the dark. Again I kid, I'm sure I am biased when it comes to Stevie but I cant think of 14 players better than him.

Yes, I'm a "Robie High" grad! Haven't heard that joke, but it may be better applied to St. FX.

I'm guessing if you started making a list, you'll find it difficult to fit him in the top 15.

#48 MacK_Attack

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 02:01 PM

Yes, I'm a "Robie High" grad! Haven't heard that joke, but it may be better applied to St. FX.

I'm guessing if you started making a list, you'll find it difficult to fit him in the top 15.

It's really a subjective list, though. The top 7 or 8 are sure-fire, then it gets debatable as depending on what you look for in a hockey player kind of dictates the way a list like that would go.

Plus, I have a hard time ranking the really old-time guys like Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, etc.

#49 eva unit zero

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:20 PM

Being a great two way center wasn't all that important in the 80's. Hence Yzerman and Lemieux weren't considered defensive shut down centers in the 80's. Lemieux did score a bunch of shorthanded goals, though, so I wouldn't call him terrible defensively.


Bure scored a bunch of shorthanded goals too. What does that prove?

Yzerman was one of the league's better defensive centers for almost his entire career, including the 80s. Yzerman scored 155 points while challenging for the Selke trophy. I'm not aware of another instance where another player has scored even 135 points with a comparable defensive performance to what Yzerman displayed during the late 80s.
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#50 Doc Holliday

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:25 PM


Bure scored a bunch of shorthanded goals too. What does that prove?

Yzerman was one of the league's better defensive centers for almost his entire career, including the 80s. Yzerman scored 155 points while challenging for the Selke trophy. I'm not aware of another instance where another player has scored even 135 points with a comparable defensive performance to what Yzerman displayed during the late 80s.


Revisionist history, ftw.

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#51 eva unit zero

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:48 PM

Revisionist history, ftw.


If a player receives votes for a trophy, particularly first place votes, are they not challenging for said trophy?
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#52 Doc Holliday

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:52 PM

If a player receives votes for a trophy, particularly first place votes, are they not challenging for said trophy?


Depends on how many. And depends on who he is up against.

I don't think anyone would say Phaneuf challanged for the Norris in 2008.

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#53 eva unit zero

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:25 PM

Depends on how many. And depends on who he is up against.

I don't think anyone would say Phaneuf challanged for the Norris in 2008.


Take a vacation to Calgary...
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#54 toby91_ca

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:56 PM


Bure scored a bunch of shorthanded goals too. What does that prove?

Yzerman was one of the league's better defensive centers for almost his entire career, including the 80s. Yzerman scored 155 points while challenging for the Selke trophy. I'm not aware of another instance where another player has scored even 135 points with a comparable defensive performance to what Yzerman displayed during the late 80s.

I know you have brought this up several times in the past and I really don't agree here. I've been watching hockey since the early 80's, so I've seen Yzerman's entire career and I don't remember anyone considering him to be a top defensive player until the mid-90s.

Getting 2 votes for the Selke does not make you a great defensive player. Some comparisons:

Gretzky:

- 1 vote in 1985 when scoring 208pts
- 1 vote in 1986 when scoring 215pts

Is the magic number of votes 2? He never challenged for the Selke in the 80s, not even close.

#55 Grim

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 10:46 PM

Stevie Y is a dual citizen, as is the great Mario Lemieux.

#56 Dave Anderson

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 01:44 AM

I think they're pretty even. I do believe Lemieux minus his injuries would have been the best. He was better naturally then Gretzky, but Yzerman is definitely in the top 5. But when you look at the whole picture, not just their total points, but their entire skill set, it becomes much harder.


As great as Yzerman was, he is not even in the top five players to play for the Red Wings. Here's the all-time ranking from the History of Hockey board: http://hfboards.com/...ad.php?t=669817

1. Gordie Howe
2. Doug Harvey
3. Dominik Hasek
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Red Kelly
6. Terry Sawchuk
7. Ted Lindsay
8. Steve Yzerman

#57 eva unit zero

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 02:00 AM

As great as Yzerman was, he is not even in the top five players to play for the Red Wings. Here's the all-time ranking from the History of Hockey board: http://hfboards.com/...ad.php?t=669817

1. Gordie Howe
2. Doug Harvey
3. Dominik Hasek
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Red Kelly
6. Terry Sawchuk
7. Ted Lindsay
8. Steve Yzerman


I would rank Yzerman probably second All-Time among Red Wings.

As far as this list?

Hasek vs Sawchuk; That's fairly arguable, as the "All-time best-ever goalie" debate typically includes Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy, Brodeur.
Harvey vs Lidstrom; Most journalists and many experts agree that Lidstrom is better than Harvey, and is quite possibly the second best defenseman ever. While I'm not arguing him above Bobby Orr, the "Nobody is better than Bobby Orr, period, and you'll have to drug me to get me to say otherwise" attitude reallyf****** annoys me. Orr gets an automatic spot? Even Gretzky, who is so wonderful his number is retired for all teams, can be argued as "not the best ever" with some legitimate arguments. Why is Orr so protected?

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#58 toby91_ca

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 08:35 AM


I would rank Yzerman probably second All-Time among Red Wings.

As far as this list?

Hasek vs Sawchuk; That's fairly arguable, as the "All-time best-ever goalie" debate typically includes Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy, Brodeur.
Harvey vs Lidstrom; Most journalists and many experts agree that Lidstrom is better than Harvey, and is quite possibly the second best defenseman ever. While I'm not arguing him above Bobby Orr, the "Nobody is better than Bobby Orr, period, and you'll have to drug me to get me to say otherwise" attitude reallyf****** annoys me. Orr gets an automatic spot? Even Gretzky, who is so wonderful his number is retired for all teams, can be argued as "not the best ever" with some legitimate arguments. Why is Orr so protected?

With respect to Bobby Orr, this may be the reason many would not consider any defenseman better than him:

- played in 9 full seasons in the NHL and won the Norris every single season, except his rookie year, but he did win the Calder that year.
- 3 Hart trophies
- I think he's the only defenseman to ever win the Art Ross, which he did 2 times
- 2 Conn Smythe trophies
- 1 Pearson.

He did all that when essentially being forced out of the game due to injuries at the age of 27. After that, he only played 36 more games over 3 seasons.

So if you want to compare Lidstrom and Orr both after their 27th birthdays, here is what you would get:

Orr - 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Conn Smythe, 2 Stanley Cups, 1 Pearson, 1 Calder +579

Lidstrom - 1 Stanley Cup +141

What if Orr had a long healthy career? Haven't you always been one of those guys that played the what if game and pro rated stats to fill in gaps where players where hurt, etc. Or do you only do that when you want to support your view? :P Seriously though, it doesn't matter with Orr, he accomplished enough in his short time in the NHL.

Edit - I added the +/- stats, which you should also note that Orr's did not include his rookie year when the stat was not being recorded. However, Orr does include more years here since he started at 18 vs. Lidstrom at 21

Edited by toby91_ca, 09 September 2010 - 08:58 AM.


#59 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:23 AM

Yes. But there were far better players than Steve (you know, not just forwards :P), whether you want to admit that or not. Points are not everything. Messier is second in points all-time. Is he even close to top 4 ever? No freaking way. Yzerman scored 155 points in the 80s, era with most goals per game. When he did that, he was NOT a good two way player. When he became one, his scoring took a big hit. No sane person would even consider taking Steve Yzerman over Mario Lemieux on any team. Ever.

Hmmmm, lets see, the year he won the Selke award he had 35G, 44A for 79Pts with a +/- of +28...

The year he scored 155 pts he had 65G, 90A and was a +17. You're looking at a difference of 11 goals given up while was on the ice when he had his best offensive season. As a matter of fact in 1992-93 when he scored 137 points he was a +33. So to say he only turned into a great defender when he was only scoring 80 points is asinine. The difference is, players like Fedorov, Kozlov, Shanahan showed up and took a lot of scoring pressure of Yzerman.

Bottom line is, when they were both in their primes, lets say the year Yzerman scored 155 and Mario scored 199 points, he was the third best player in the NHL when he was 2nd runner up to Gretzky and Lemieux for the Hart trophy. For all the offensive power Mario had he only finish his career with a +/- of +115, while Yzerman finished with a +185, never once getting a +/- higher than he did when he scored 137 points...

Remember, Lemieux was drafted 1st overall and was supposed to be the offensive machine that he was, it came down to the last day of the season when Jersey lost out on getting the 1st overall pick and getting Mario. Steve Yzerman was a second thought for the Wings and was never supposed to be the offensive talent let alone Selke type player that he turned out to be. Mario lived up to his hype & expectations, Yzerman not only surpassed his, but obliterated them...

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#60 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:34 AM

Decided to start a Facebook group. I welcome everyone to join.

Facebook Group-Stevie For Order Of Canada

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