The NHL's Marketing Skills

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I've been bitching about NHL marketing for ages. I'm beyond sick of talking about the NHL's love for the two players.

Both the NHL and Red Wing's marketing teams are 10 yrs behind the curve. The Red Wing's playoff slogans are ridiculously bad. WTF was with the stick on beards, the management was laughing AT them during the press release.

According to who? Bettman?

That.

[Carman 387]

What if you think hockey includes more than scoring?

Like penalty killing, face-offs, defensive coverage?

There isn't a better defensive center that scores 80+ points.

[eva unit zero 271]

Like penalty killing, face-offs, defensive coverage?

There isn't a better defensive center that scores 80+ points.

Assuming that you mean a center who scored 80+ last season, I can name four centers who beat that mark who are better defensively than Crosby, plus a winger who is a natural center and is far, FAR better.

Crosby is an excellent offensive player. But that's the only area of the game he's good at. If other players produce almost as much or more offense and are better in other areas of the game, how can Crosby be the best? It's like the argument about Gretzky vs Fedorov in 1994. Gretzky scored 130 points and won the scoring race. Fedorov scored 120. Who's better? But Gretzky only scored 38 goals to Fedorov's 54, and Fedorov won the Selke as the best defensive forward.

Offense matters in hockey, but if you make a great play and score a goal, but your poor defense results in the opposition being able to score on the next play, how well have you done?

And beyond that, this isn't even considering defensemen or goaltenders. Skilled defensemen are huge assets offensively yet often don't get points when they factor into a play. And a good defensive defenseman can not only keep your team from giving up goals with his solid play, his ability will allow the offense to play more aggressively. Goaltenders are often the most important player a team has, so to rule them out of the debate for "best player" is silly.

[Carman 387]

Assuming that you mean a center who scored 80+ last season, I can name four centers who beat that mark who are better defensively than Crosby, plus a winger who is a natural center and is far, FAR better.

Crosby is an excellent offensive player. But that's the only area of the game he's good at. If other players produce almost as much or more offense and are better in other areas of the game, how can Crosby be the best? It's like the argument about Gretzky vs Fedorov in 1994. Gretzky scored 130 points and won the scoring race. Fedorov scored 120. Who's better? But Gretzky only scored 38 goals to Fedorov's 54, and Fedorov won the Selke as the best defensive forward.

Offense matters in hockey, but if you make a great play and score a goal, but your poor defense results in the opposition being able to score on the next play, how well have you done?

And beyond that, this isn't even considering defensemen or goaltenders. Skilled defensemen are huge assets offensively yet often don't get points when they factor into a play. And a good defensive defenseman can not only keep your team from giving up goals with his solid play, his ability will allow the offense to play more aggressively. Goaltenders are often the most important player a team has, so to rule them out of the debate for "best player" is silly.

That bolded part is just absurd.

You are really underrating Crosby's defensive game. His boardwork, and backchecking are fantastic. And he was easily one of the top 2 face off men last year.

It's not like Crosby's a defensive liability when he plays he's not a floater in the offensive zone and regularly the last person on the back check like other 100+ point players the past couple years. I'd love examples of his poor defense, before last year I'd agree that his defensive play was mediocre at best, but last year while being his team top offensive threat, still played a role on the penalty kill, took defensive zone faceoffs, and was always on the ice for the important defensive situations.

Crosby has offensively put up the best numbers consistently for any center since entering the league(besides his 06-07 50 game season, but using Eva logic his PPG was great as well), couple that his vast improvements in his positioning, faceoffs, skating, and just learning the center posistion I find it very very hard to not him as at least the top 2 players currently in the game.

Ovechkin, and Crosby are it, and it's no use debating the two because they are different players. Stamkos, Sedin, Keith, Miller etc. need to start putting up Hart trophy seasons for a couple more years for me to really put them in that category.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

That bolded part is just absurd.

You are really underrating Crosby's defensive game. His boardwork, and backchecking are fantastic. And he was easily one of the top 2 face off men last year.

It's not like Crosby's a defensive liability when he plays he's not a floater in the offensive zone and regularly the last person on the back check like other 100+ point players the past couple years. I'd love examples of his poor defense, before last year I'd agree that his defensive play was mediocre at best, but last year while being his team top offensive threat, still played a role on the penalty kill, took defensive zone faceoffs, and was always on the ice for the important defensive situations.

Crosby has offensively put up the best numbers consistently for any center since entering the league(besides his 06-07 50 game season, but using Eva logic his PPG was great as well), couple that his vast improvements in his positioning, faceoffs, skating, and just learning the center posistion I find it very very hard to not him as at least the top 2 players currently in the game.

Ovechkin, and Crosby are it, and it's no use debating the two because they are different players. Stamkos, Sedin, Keith, Miller etc. need to start putting up Hart trophy seasons for a couple more years for me to really put them in that category.

Did you not watch this season?

[zettie85 106]

Reach out to fans of players other than Crosby.

It doesn't matter. Anybody who hates Crosby already watches hockey. Therefore there is no need to market towards them.

[lookalive07 251]

Cool story bro

Cool contribution bro.

While I think the NHL should market more players, building the NHL's media exposure with something that is working right now is what they need to do. The HBO special will be very good for the NHL and hockey in general, and if we ever want our sport back on a legitimate sports channel, *cough*gtfoVersus*cough* this may be a step in the right direction.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

If you guys have been watching the NHL network (the channel completely dedicated to NHL hockey), they have been doing that in spades.

Stamkos, Parise, Getzlaf, Cammalleri, St. Louis, Philly, etc.

HBO is not the NHL, and it was THEIR decision to focus on the two teams leading up to the winter classic. To be upset that HBO has dedicated TWO specials to NHL events (the Broad Street Bullies were the first last year) in recent history gives you an indication the NHL might be doing something right.

And if you look at NHL.com right now, there are two main stories about the Wings (one of highlights) and a Devils preview. I have a subscription to NHL home ice (XM radio for 3 bucks a month) and they go across the board with different teams.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Carman 387]

Did you not watch this season?

Should I bold seasons.

Have to do it for more then one season man, Crosby and Ovechkin have been up there perennially since they've entered the league.

Not to mention everyone complained about Crosby's point production for secondary assists in the Ovechkin vs. Crosby debate, yet Sedin had 75% of his points as assists yet doesn't endure the same criticism with the Hart trophy...

[edicius 3,269]

And if you look at NHL.com right now, there are two main stories about the Wings (one of highlights) and a Devils preview. I have a subscription to NHL home ice (XM radio for 3 bucks a month) and they go across the board with different teams.

I had to give up on NHL Home Ice after the '09 SCF. I knew it was going to be all Crosby, all the time. Then, maybe about six months later, I decided to give it a shot. And wouldn't you know it, the very first word I heard when I turned on the channel was "Crosby", no exaggeration, no joke. I haven't turned it on since.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I had to give up on NHL Home Ice after the '09 SCF. I knew it was going to be all Crosby, all the time. Then, maybe about six months later, I decided to give it a shot. And wouldn't you know it, the very first word I heard when I turned on the channel was "Crosby", no exaggeration, no joke. I haven't turned it on since.

You're missing out.

It's a real shame how the hatred towards Crosby on this board causes people like you to miss out on great programming.

I honestly can't remember the last time I have heard any specials or discussions about Crosby in the past month or so.

[eva unit zero 271]

That bolded part is just absurd.

You are really underrating Crosby's defensive game. His boardwork, and backchecking are fantastic. And he was easily one of the top 2 face off men last year..

Crosby is good along the boards at digging out the puck in the offensive zone. Key word in that sentence is bolded. As far as backchecking, he's maybe above average and needs serious improvement in his defensive positioning and general defensive skills. He's no Gretzky in the back end, but you'd have to work very hard to be that much of a liability defensively.

As for faceoffs, I can name more than a few guys who rank ahead of Crosby based on last season. Mikko Koivu, Patrice Bergeron, Rod Brind'Amour, Jonathan Toews, David Steckel, Jarret Stoll, Paul Gaustad, Scott Nichol, Joe Pavelski, and Eric Belanger were all better on draws than Crosby. They all took a significant number of faceoffs and posted a better percentage than Sid. Sure, Crosby took 8 million faceoffs, but that doesn't make him the best at it.

Crosby has offensively put up the best numbers consistently for any center since entering the league(besides his 06-07 50 game season, but using Eva logic his PPG was great as well), couple that his vast improvements in his positioning, faceoffs, skating, and just learning the center posistion I find it very very hard to not him as at least the top 2 players currently in the game.

Ovechkin, and Crosby are it, and it's no use debating the two because they are different players. Stamkos, Sedin, Keith, Miller etc. need to start putting up Hart trophy seasons for a couple more years for me to really put them in that category.

Based on these statements, it again shows me that you take a player's scoring ability as the defining factor, with things like defense and such as minor tweaks. A 90 point player who is the best defensive player in the league is probably a better player than a good defensive player who scores 100-110 or so points. The ultimate thing is, who helps the team win more?

Sergei Fedorov is a great example. In his prime, he was among the best players in the league at almost everything. During Fedorov's prime, it's difficult to argue that any other player offered a combination of skills that would help a team win more than his. Crosby's offensive skill ranks him among the best despite having weaknesses, but there are better players than him.

[edicius 3,269]

You're missing out.

It's a real shame how the hatred towards Crosby on this board causes people like you to miss out on great programming.

I honestly can't remember the last time I have heard any specials or discussions about Crosby in the past month or so.

On your suggestion, I'll give it another shot. But, so help me, if I turn on the station and the first word I hear is "Crosby" again, I'm coming for you...

[eva unit zero 271]

On your suggestion, I'll give it another shot. But, so help me, if I turn on the station and the first word I hear is "Crosby" again, I'm coming for you...

*sneaks into edicius' house and reroutes the audio cables to provide a different feed*

"Crosby Crosby Crosby Crosby Crosby..."

[Carman 387]

Crosby is good along the boards at digging out the puck in the offensive zone. Key word in that sentence is bolded. As far as backchecking, he's maybe above average and needs serious improvement in his defensive positioning and general defensive skills. He's no Gretzky in the back end, but you'd have to work very hard to be that much of a liability defensively.

As for faceoffs, I can name more than a few guys who rank ahead of Crosby based on last season. Mikko Koivu, Patrice Bergeron, Rod Brind'Amour, Jonathan Toews, David Steckel, Jarret Stoll, Paul Gaustad, Scott Nichol, Joe Pavelski, and Eric Belanger were all better on draws than Crosby. They all took a significant number of faceoffs and posted a better percentage than Sid. Sure, Crosby took 8 million faceoffs, but that doesn't make him the best at it.

Based on these statements, it again shows me that you take a player's scoring ability as the defining factor, with things like defense and such as minor tweaks. A 90 point player who is the best defensive player in the league is probably a better player than a good defensive player who scores 100-110 or so points. The ultimate thing is, who helps the team win more?

Sergei Fedorov is a great example. In his prime, he was among the best players in the league at almost everything. During Fedorov's prime, it's difficult to argue that any other player offered a combination of skills that would help a team win more than his. Crosby's offensive skill ranks him among the best despite having weaknesses, but there are better players than him.

I agree about the overall importance of defensive ability, it's a shame it's not more valued in Hart trophy voting and in the media. But still scoring points is usually considered a much harder task then being a shut-down defensive player, that's just the nature of the game, so naturally a person posting 100+ point campaigns is going to get ranked higher in terms of ability. Now if we were comparing the players on value to the team, I'd have Zetterberg/Datsyuk ranked right up there with Crosby/Ovechkin, but really it comes down to a personal preference of defense/offense.

Again I think you undervalue his board work in the defensive zone he wins a lot of battles in his zone, and makes a great breakout pass it's one of the things that really sets him apart. watching him play I've noticed his improvements in his own zone, and the smarter decisions he's making in the offensive zone. He was very average, to even below average his first couple years defensively, I'm not going to argue that. But last year he was noticeably improved in this area.

The face-offs is very subjective, I'm not going to dwell on that much, Toews/Bergeron are the players I'd put up with him this year, as they actually took the majority of their team's draws verse the best centers. Sure Crosby took alot of faceoffs, but his % is right up there with everyone else whiletaking that many. He's really improved in that aspect, and that's why I brought it up.

And I value defense, that's why I'd choose Crosby over Ovechkin. But seeing that Crosby's improvements on his end, while still scoring 50+ goals as a center makes him pretty damn rare(Not to mention with a Malkin off year). So I guess I do value offense more then you, but I still think it's important. I also think it has a lot to do with the coach and system in place, I'm sure if you had Bowman coaching a Crosby or Ovechkin that their natural talents would allow them to be at least very good defensive players, if not great. So I guess I give them a break in that regard.

I'm just looking at their consistency of point production, coupled with the fact that their teams aren't exactly bottom feeders, and have been fairly successful in the playoffs, that their play hasn't really hurt their teams ability to win.

I'd say Datsyuk is a top 5 player easy, but that 70 point season hurt him. I'm willing to sacrifice defense for points, but there has to be a value where Outstanding defensive play + 70 points does not equal Good defensive play + 110 points I guess my values may be a little higher on the points then yours, and that's ok.

Goal scoring isn't easy, there is a reason 2-3 50 goal 100 point guys a year, and 10-15 true shut down defensive centers.

[eva unit zero 271]

Goal scoring isn't easy, there is a reason 2-3 50 goal 100 point guys a year, and 10-15 true shut down defensive centers.

Part of this is that usually the 50+ goal scorers happen one of two ways; when a guy is the central focus of his team's offense, or he is a skilled shooter playing with a great passer.

If you take the top goal scorers in the league, a lot of guys could be 50 goal scorers if they were put in a more favorable spot. Just think about Cheechoo and how much playing with Thornton affected his performance. Or Hull with Oates.

As for "true shut down centers" think about it this way; Zetterberg v. Crosby in the 2008 Finals. Remember how Z shut down Crosby? Do you think there are 15 centers who are capable of shutting down top offensive players like Crosby the way Z did? Absolutely not. Elite defense is just as high-end as elite offense.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

So since his name was mentioned, this thread automatically becomes a Crosby thread? No wonder the NHL thinks he's a demigod. What the hell does his defensive dis-abilities have to do with NHL marketing?

Please keep it on topic.

[Guest scottj]

lol that's what I was thinking... I started gettin into this conversation n then I look at the title of the thread n was like ??

[Carman 387]

Part of this is that usually the 50+ goal scorers happen one of two ways; when a guy is the central focus of his team's offense, or he is a skilled shooter playing with a great passer.

If you take the top goal scorers in the league, a lot of guys could be 50 goal scorers if they were put in a more favorable spot. Just think about Cheechoo and how much playing with Thornton affected his performance. Or Hull with Oates.

As for "true shut down centers" think about it this way; Zetterberg v. Crosby in the 2008 Finals. Remember how Z shut down Crosby? Do you think there are 15 centers who are capable of shutting down top offensive players like Crosby the way Z did? Absolutely not. Elite defense is just as high-end as elite offense.

The thing with Crosby is he's shown two different offensive skill sets, he came in as an elite play-maker, then filled his teams need of goals by shooting more and focusing in on goals rather then passing. He was his team's main offensive focus, but mostly created his own opportunities, while playing with less talent. He scored 32 more points then the 2nd place person on his team, and 59 more then the 3rd that's just staggering. He was so important to his team last year, and that's why I'd say his offense was more needed for his team then his defense, if he were to play a very conservative defensive game his team might not have been able to score the goals to win games.

It really depends on the team, the Red Wings have a lot of scoring depth and Pittsburgh is mainly a two player offensive team it's a difference and the top players on each team need to play differently to cover the weaknesses of the team.

Very good point on the true shut down centers, there aren't many at all that can score and shut down.

So since his name was mentioned, this thread automatically becomes a Crosby thread? No wonder the NHL thinks he's a demigod. What the hell does his defensive dis-abilities have to do with NHL marketing?

Please keep it on topic.

If people are going to criticize the marketing of the league for over marketing one player obviously that player is going to be talked about.

His defensive play has to do with the talk that he is or it not one of the games two best players, which is relevant because a league usually does market the best players more than the very good.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Carman

[Electrophile 3,554]

If you guys have been watching the NHL network (the channel completely dedicated to NHL hockey), they have been doing that in spades.

Stamkos, Parise, Getzlaf, Cammalleri, St. Louis, Philly, etc.

HBO is not the NHL, and it was THEIR decision to focus on the two teams leading up to the winter classic. To be upset that HBO has dedicated TWO specials to NHL events (the Broad Street Bullies were the first last year) in recent history gives you an indication the NHL might be doing something right.

And if you look at NHL.com right now, there are two main stories about the Wings (one of highlights) and a Devils preview. I have a subscription to NHL home ice (XM radio for 3 bucks a month) and they go across the board with different teams.

I can't afford the NHL Network (it's a premium sports channel here), I can't afford HBO and I certainly can't afford XM radio.

So for people like me.....well I guess we're just s*** out of luck, huh?

[soultrain 43]

I can't afford the NHL Network (it's a premium sports channel here), I can't afford HBO and I certainly can't afford XM radio.

So for people like me.....well I guess we're just s*** out of luck, huh?

be a pirate...or make a new friend who has a better cable package

[Carman 387]

I can't afford the NHL Network (it's a premium sports channel here), I can't afford HBO and I certainly can't afford XM radio.

So for people like me.....well I guess we're just s*** out of luck, huh?

Guess so.

The NHL uses NBC as it's main attraction for new fans, so they will market Crosby to try and get those viewers interested.

The HBO special, NHL network, XM etc. are more for the person who already is follows hockey, so you won't see the "beginner" advertising as much.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I can't afford the NHL Network (it's a premium sports channel here), I can't afford HBO and I certainly can't afford XM radio.

So for people like me.....well I guess we're just s*** out of luck, huh?

Yeah, I guess as a Wings fan you are going to have to settle with the oodles and oodles of Wings games broadcast nationally every year, NHL.com, sports blogs, and other message boards to get your fix. (I don't understand how you expect VS and NBC to reach out their games to a smaller branch of viewers when they are in the business of making money, and Wings/Hawks/Pens/Caps are the prime tickets to get lots and lots of fans to watch the game)

Poor you.

The NHL is getting a lot more marketing done now than they had when ESPN was calling the shots and relegating them to a fringe sport such as beach volleyball and tournament poker. They have a channel dedicated to the sport that gives a product that all fans want. They have an XM radio network devoted to the sport that gives a product that all fans want. They have VS and NBC, both programs that highlight the most popular teams and do so often (though I am not sure why they wait until the new year). They have an outdoor game that is big news every year. They are now doing an outdoor game for Canadian fans as well.

I remember all of the buzz surrounding the World Juniors (which I watched), and the Olympics (also watched and punched my desk repeatedly from). They are doing a s*** ton to get the sport media attention, and no it isn't focused just on Crosby (yeah and how dare the arguably best player in the league get a teensy bit more attention than other players).

Edited September 28, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Sounds like Doc has been hired as Bettman's publicist.

Oh and I'm so glad this didn't turn into another Crosby thread.

[Guest scottj]

seriously... this is getting beyond the point of normal hatred

I hate to say it guys, but the constant mention of crosby's name on these boards is rivaling the jealousy of chicago against us... well not really

cause those guys are ******* PATHETIC

but you get what I mean