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HockeytownRules19

Wings release Aaron Downey

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This is exactly what I mean.

Where were these posts when Downey was in the lineup? Did the cat get your tongue then?

Please go back and read my posts... I didn't like Downey ever and I wrote about it too. I'm not anti-enforcer I am anti-goon which is about all Downey is and a terrible one at that. He is a garbage hockey player and a s***ty fighter and would not keep any cheap player honest, especially sitting on the bench. He didn't make the team for a reason and that because he can't play hockey. Abdelkader will provide more then Downey ever could and has the making of a good Power forward that can also play hockey.

Anti-enforcer post alert. :siren:

BTW, to add to your list, Downey was a horrible person who punched babies and strangled elderly women.

I don't give a crap if he's everyone's best friend and can turn water into wine... he can't play hockey which is the only reason why I am happy he isn't on the team.

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Change on the fly...Closest guy to the bench gets off the ice, the "tuff guy" jumps on, and goes after the opponent causing trouble.

^ This. It happens all the time and is failed to be acknowledged by the anti's concocting ridiculous theories as to why they think enforcers are useless. :thumbup:

esteef

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^ This. It happens all the time and is failed to be acknowledged by the anti's concocting ridiculous theories as to why they think enforcers are useless. :thumbup:

esteef

The sport has changed man... Pure Enforcers are obsolete now a days, they are useless. Back in the 80's sure but this is 2010 and the days of bench clearing brawls and players who can't do anything but fight are long gone. We wouldn't be having this same discussion if Downey could contribute something, however small, to go with his willingness to fight but he can't and he was cut for it.

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Guest Shoreline

Oh no, the Wings may as well not play this season. Can't win the Cup without Downey. :scared:

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^ This. It happens all the time and is failed to be acknowledged by the anti's concocting ridiculous theories as to why they think enforcers are useless. :thumbup:

esteef

you do realize that as soon as the goon gets on the ice that the person he is trying to attack can just as easily change on the fly?

dobbles

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If pure enforcers are useless nowadays, how come just about every team seems to dress one?

Yeah, they're playing limited minutes, but that has always been the case with pure enforcers, even back in the 80's and 90's. They've always been 4th liners. That doesn't make someone useless, just because they're on the 4th line.

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If pure enforcers are useless nowadays, how come just about every team seems to dress one?

Yay, argument from majority.

Can you name me each pure enforcer on all of the 30 teams in the league?

Yeah, they're playing limited minutes, but that has always been the case with pure enforcers, even back in the 80's and 90's. They've always been 4th liners. That doesn't make someone useless, just because they're on the 4th line.

Just because the role of the enforcer has stayed the same doesn't mean the game itself hasn't changed.

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If pure enforcers are useless nowadays, how come just about every team seems to dress one?

Yeah, they're playing limited minutes, but that has always been the case with pure enforcers, even back in the 80's and 90's. They've always been 4th liners. That doesn't make someone useless, just because they're on the 4th line.

First how many pure enforcers are still playing because not every team dresses one?... pure enforcer we are speaking here. Did someone grab Laraques? Is Brashear still in the league? Would you really want a goon like Ivanans and his 12 goals in 4 years or Boogaard and his 2 goals in 5 years? Who would you sit for Downey? Signing Downey or someone like him means someone else doesn't play... even in Grand Rapids, if he is there some younger more talented kid isn't. 4th Liners are not useless and that is why we need to keep guys like Downey off of them and keep guys like Helm and Abbie on them... they both will hit, Abbie will fight and they are both getting better with the experience.

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Yay, argument from majority.

Can you name me each pure enforcer on all of the 30 teams in the league?

Just because the role of the enforcer has stayed the same doesn't mean the game itself hasn't changed.

I can name you a lot of pure enforcers, and would name you most teams, but that would take way too long. Besides, you know who they are, so what's the point?

The game has changed, but that doesn't mean teams have totally stopped using pure enforcers. Otherwise, guys like Godard, Orr, Boogaard, Shelley, Belak, Parros, Janssen, Barch, Thornton, McGrattan, Hordichuk, etc. wouldn't have a job in the NHL these last few years.

I don't think every GM in the league is dumb. When these types of players that I listed above totally disappear from the NHL, then I'll join your position.

First how many pure enforcers are still playing because not every team dresses one?... pure enforcer we are speaking here. Did someone grab Laraques? Is Brashear still in the league? Would you really want a goon like Ivanans and his 12 goals in 4 years or Boogaard and his 2 goals in 5 years? Who would you sit for Downey? Signing Downey or someone like him means someone else doesn't play... even in Grand Rapids, if he is there some younger more talented kid isn't. 4th Liners are not useless and that is why we need to keep guys like Downey off of them and keep guys like Helm and Abbie on them... they both will hit, Abbie will fight and they are both getting better with the experience.

Every team has a 4th liner in the minors, who is more talented than their enforcers. That doesn't prevent them from dressing those tough guys.

We've done it before too. It's honestly not that radical an idea.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Guest Shoreline

Yay, argument from majority.

Can you name me each pure enforcer on all of the 30 teams in the league?

Just because the role of the enforcer has stayed the same doesn't mean the game itself hasn't changed.

As I'm sure you're well aware, "nearly every team" wins the Stanley Cup every year, so it's certainly due to enforcers.

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As I'm sure you're well aware, "nearly every team" wins the Stanley Cup every year, so it's certainly due to enforcers.

It's not.

I'm just refuting the arguments people make about how enforcers are obsolete nowadays, despite the fact that just about every team has a pure goon that doesn't have much skill, and takes playing time away from those in the minors with more talent. The Wings did the same with May and Downey in recent history.

Apparently, some of posters here think they're smarter than most GM's in the NHL on this issue.

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I can name you a lot of pure enforcers, and would name you most teams, but that would take way too long. Besides, you know who they are, so what's the point?

The game has changed, but that doesn't mean teams have totally stopped using pure enforcers. Otherwise, guys like Godard, Orr, Boogaard, Shelley, Belak, Parros, Janssen, Barch, Thornton, McGrattan, Hordichuk, etc. wouldn't have a job in the NHL these last few years.

I don't think every GM in the league besides Holland is dumb. When these types of players that I listed above totally disappear from the NHL, then I'll join your position.

Every team has a 4th liner in the minors, who is more talented than their enforcers. That doesn't prevent them from dressing those tough guys.

We've done it before too. It's honestly not that radical an idea.

From our current roster who would you sit in place of the pure enforcer? And how many of the other GM's in the league have had as much success as Holland. I may not like very thing he does either but his record does speak for itself. I would rather have Abdlekader in there developing his abilites (hitting and fighting included) over a goon. I would rather a guy like the Mule learn to throw a huge body check to keep ppl honest then a goon... and I was happy to hear Big Bert flex some muscle and hope he does it some more to keep ppl honest.

Here this is on Mlive.com today: Adbelkader pegged to provide key physical presence...

Edited by The Secret

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It's not.

I'm just refuting the arguments people make about how enforcers are obsolete nowadays, despite the fact that just about every team has a pure goon that doesn't have much skill, and takes playing time away from those in the minors with more talent. The Wings did the same with May and Downey in recent history.

Apparently, some of posters here think they're smarter than most GM's in the NHL on this issue.

I'm not saying they are "obsolete" in today's NHL.

I'm simply saying their role is hardly as much of a necessity as it used to be. Remember that whole instigator rule they put in place?

Also, still waiting on the pure enforcer from every team. Would be great.

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From our current roster who would you sit in place of the pure enforcer? And how many of the other GM's in the league have had as much success as Holland. I may not like very thing he does either but his record does speak for itself. I would rather have Abdlekader in there developing his abilites (hitting and fighting included) over a goon. I would rather a guy like the Mule learn to throw a huge body check to keep ppl honest then a goon... and I was happy to hear Big Bert flex some muscle and hope he does it some more to keep ppl honest.

Here this is on Mlive.com today: Adbelkader pegged to provide key physical presence...

An enforcer as the 13th forward wouldn't take playing time away from any developing young players because having young talented guys as the 13th forward is dumb. When injuries come or we're in a tough game we can insert an enforcer.

Explain how that hurts the development of young players?

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Guest Heaten

Cups which Detroit won in the past: Rosters from 96-97 and/or 97-98, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Rouse, Jamie Macouin, Bob Rouse, Ward, Konstantinov... That's toughnes and skills my friend...

2002 - We had McCarty, Shanahan...

2008 - Shadow of Mcarty

Good point. Anyone else noticing the trend?

In 96-98 the team was stacked with fighters (who could still play hockey)

In '02 the team had two 'fighters' (even though enforcer slappies on LGW would condemn Shanny as a fighter in 2002 - but now it's used as a 'point'. funny how that works)

in 2008 (Mac was brought back more for loyalty and less to enforce)

in 2010 (no pure enforcers, but players willing to fight - Abdelkader, Ericsson, Salei)

The trend speaks for itself. This is the Nu NHL where enforcers aren't as important as they were in the 90's.

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An enforcer as the 13th forward wouldn't take playing time away from any developing young players because having young talented guys as the 13th forward is dumb. When injuries come or we're in a tough game we can insert an enforcer.

Explain how that hurts the development of young players?

Or, we can let the younger more talented players we already have play and develop and have the 13th spot for the guy who has the best chance at earning the next spot. The enforcer will not challenge anyone for playing time nor will he be a motivating factor for current roster players to play harder because there is someone right behind them eager and working to take the spot from them. What benefit did we get from either Downey or May that we could not have lived without? I cannot think of one time where I was glad to have them on the team because their presence did anything really... in the lineup or not

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Or, we can let the younger more talented players we already have play and develop and have the 13th spot for the guy who has the best chance at earning the next spot. The enforcer will not challenge anyone for playing time nor will he be a motivating factor for current roster players to play harder because there is someone right behind them eager and working to take the spot from them. What benefit did we get from either Downey or May that we could not have lived without? I cannot think of one time where I was glad to have them on the team because their presence did anything really... in the lineup or not

I don't understand this logic, especially when the Wings are likely to carry 14 forwards this year. How would it help Tatar (or any other prospect) develop if he is sitting in the press-box for half of the season? Let the prospects play in GR where they can see big minutes every night, and call them up when they are needed. Having Downey play ~40 games when someone needs a break (but not long enough for a call-up) does nothing to hurt the development of prospects. It likely helps IMO.

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It's not.

I'm just refuting the arguments people make about how enforcers are obsolete nowadays, despite the fact that just about every team has a pure goon that doesn't have much skill, and takes playing time away from those in the minors with more talent. The Wings did the same with May and Downey in recent history.

Apparently, some of posters here think they're smarter than most GM's in the NHL on this issue.

I think you're overestimating the talent most teams have in their systems.

Drew Miller will likely be our 13th forward. Most teams struggle to fill their 3rd lines with players that good. The majority of 4th liners and bench forwards around the league are fringe NHLers who aren't going to put up more than 10-15 points at best. Most AHL forwards either aren't any better or are being kept in the AHL for development reasons, or high draft picks that would cost substantionally more.

A team looking to fill out the bottom of their forward roster is likely choosing between guys with marginal talent. Some might score a few more points than others, but lack a physical game of defense. Some might play physical and maybe fight, maybe play decent defense, but with little offense. Some are good fighters and usually decently physical, but are a bit worse in other areas. None of those things is particularly valuable.

I think it's less about how much teams value having an enforcer than it is about how little they value a slightly better player who can't play physical.

Either way, the Wings have proven they can be successful without an enforcer or fighting, and we already have more forwards than will fit on the roster. Come back next year when we might have a couple spots open.

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Guest Crymson

I think that GMR is just being a pessimistic perfectionist, as is normal for him. This is the guy who vehemently stated last season that the Wings would be lucky to make the playoffs and that they'd NEVER make something as high as 5th seed; he's one of those who cried bloody murder at the '08 trade deadline and predicted doom and gloom; he's the one who, just as now, finds something to lament about during every offseason; and he's the guy who, with behavior indicating a complex of entitlement, often passionately yells and complains whenever the Wings lose a game.

GMR: I don't think you're a bad person, but I think you'd be happier if you were optimistic more often. The Red Wings are a fantastic organization, and more than any other team, they've given their fans a ton to cheer about over the last 15 years. You should feel lucky and grateful rather than feeling pessimistic when the team isn't absolutely perfect.

Edited by Crymson

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I think that GMR is just being a pessimistic perfectionist, as is normal for him. This is the guy who vehemently stated last season that the Wings would be lucky to make the playoffs and that they'd NEVER make something as high as 5th seed; he's one of those who cried bloody murder at the '08 trade deadline and predicted doom and gloom; he's the one who, just as now, finds something to lament about during every offseason; and he's the guy who, with behavior indicating a complex of entitlement, often passionately yells and complains whenever the Wings lose a game.

GMR: I don't think you're a bad person, but I think you'd be happier if you were optimistic more often. The Red Wings are a fantastic organization, and more than any other team, they've given their fans a ton to cheer about over the last 15 years. You should feel lucky and grateful rather than feeling pessimistic when the team isn't absolutely perfect.

Your man hate for me is amazing.

You probably have a lot more people on this site who dislike you than those who dislike me. There's a reason for that, and posts like the one you just made are perfect example as to why.

Nothing analytical at all about your post. Totally off topic and self righteous. Funny thing is that I've posted less in this thread than any other pro-enforcer people. Probably some pathetic attempt to start a flame war. I ought to have my head examined for even responding to it.

Oh, and I am a bad person, so you got that wrong too.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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I'm not saying they are "obsolete" in today's NHL.

I'm simply saying their role is hardly as much of a necessity as it used to be. Remember that whole instigator rule they put in place?

Also, still waiting on the pure enforcer from every team. Would be great.

I didn't say every team. I said most teams.

Most teams do carry a pure enforcer.

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