Wings release Aaron Downey

[GoWings1905 2,694]

But would Orpik have thrown any cheapshots after the fight had he stayed in the game? Most enforcers are reactive and this usually works well to reduce cheapshots. If Orpik is playing recklessly and is forced to fight, he is less likely to continue his reckless play knowing he will be physically confronted in a fight.

Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

[Guest Crymson]

Your man hate for me is amazing.

You probably have a lot more people on this site who dislike you than those who dislike me. There's a reason for that, and posts like the one you just made are perfect example as to why.

Nothing analytical at all about your post. Totally off topic and self righteous. Funny thing is that I've posted less in this thread than any other pro-enforcer people. Probably some pathetic attempt to start a flame war. I ought to have my head examined for even responding to it.

What an excellent and mature response! You ignored everything I said, and retorted instead with "More people like me than like you. I'm more popular than you are! So shut up!" That's an excellent way for you to avoid any accountability for your behavior.

Well, whatever.

Anyway, I'll repeat my point that dedicated enforcers are wastes of a roster spot. The anger about Downey being waived is rather silly, seeing as that we'll already need to let go of somebody in order to trim the roster to the necessary number.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Aaron Downey thinks you all smell.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

What an excellent and mature response! You ignored everything I said, and retorted instead with "More people like me than like you. I'm more popular than you are! So shut up!" That's an excellent way for you to avoid any accountability for your behavior.

Well, whatever.

Anyway, I'll repeat my point that dedicated enforcers are wastes of a roster spot. The anger about Downey being waived is rather silly, seeing as that we'll already need to let go of somebody in order to trim the roster to the necessary number.

You didn't say anything about Downey in your last post. It was about as analytical as an episode of Jersey Shore. There was nothing substantive to respond to. This post is a little better, since it actually has a sentence that mentions the topic.

No one is angry with Downey being waived. Making educated complaints is not the same thing as being angry. Also, no one is surprised that he was waived. We're just defending the argument that there is a place for enforcers in the NHL, even the pure enforcers with limited skills. If you're not convinced as to strength of our argument, then that's no surprise either. No one ever changes their mind after a debate on LGW. The spirit of a debate is why we come here.

That's all this topic was about, until you decided to turn it into some finger pointing contest.

Edited October 1, 2010 by GMRwings1983

[Guest Shoreline]

Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

Well, the belief that enforcers prevent anything is not an exact science, in fact, it's more like a religious belief or superstition that's easily defeated by conventional wisdom at best. Enforcers only real use is bringing energy by hitting stuff, maybe creating a turnover through a check, and yay, puck ends up in the back of the net. However, there are an enormous amount, today, of muckers and grinders who do a far better job at that, and are not only decent two-way players, but have a far less disposition to put their team on the penalty kill due to actually being useful for scoring or defending on occasion. Wings might survive a half minute being pinned in their own defensive zone with a 4th line muck and grind squad against an opposing 1st/scoring line, but the enforcer is the one who is going to be exploited first and foremost, either by a skill player or a power forward. I guess if the guy had the name Boogaard, that would scare the puck handler so much he would fumble the puck or just pass it to Boogie and turtle. The effects an enforcer has on opposing teams/players is, today, greatly exaggerated by enforcer slappies. The mere presence of one on a team is enough to somehow get them to the Stanley Cup. Why? Because "most/all teams" have one. Hey guys, beer is the key behind winning cups. Every single team's arena has beer, right? If not every one, damn close. I bet teams that won the Stanley Cup were selling beer, so if you don't want to win a cup, go beer-less.

Oh, and on a personal note, you're not nearly as bad as you used to be GMR, and today, there's a handful of worse slappies. I could have swore you were once on my ignore list, because at one point it became way too much of a lure to use an insult as a retort to this kind of thinking, but I think I cleaned it out some time ago.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I took you off my ignore list the day Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels shook hands on Raw.

I figured, what the hell.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Well, the belief that enforcers prevent anything is not an exact science, in fact, it's more like a religious belief or superstition that's easily defeated by conventional wisdom at best. Enforcers only real use is bringing energy by hitting stuff, maybe creating a turnover through a check, and yay, puck ends up in the back of the net. However, there are an enormous amount, today, of muckers and grinders who do a far better job at that, and are not only decent two-way players, but have a far less disposition to put their team on the penalty kill due to actually being useful for scoring or defending on occasion. Wings might survive a half minute being pinned in their own defensive zone with a 4th line muck and grind squad against an opposing 1st/scoring line, but the enforcer is the one who is going to be exploited first and foremost, either by a skill player or a power forward. I guess if the guy had the name Boogaard, that would scare the puck handler so much he would fumble the puck or just pass it to Boogie and turtle. The effects an enforcer has on opposing teams/players is, today, greatly exaggerated by enforcer slappies. The mere presence of one on a team is enough to somehow get them to the Stanley Cup. Why? Because "most/all teams" have one. Hey guys, beer is the key behind winning cups. Every single team's arena has beer, right? If not every one, damn close. I bet teams that won the Stanley Cup were selling beer, so if you don't want to win a cup, go beer-less.

Oh, and on a personal note, you're not nearly as bad as you used to be, and today, there's a handful of worse slappies. I could have swore you were once on my ignore list, because at one point it became way too much of a lure to use an insult as a retort to this kind of thinking, but I think I cleaned it out some time ago.

This is what drives me nuts about the enforcer arguments. Where has anyone ever said something close to that in a serious fashion? It's a straw man that only exacerbates the arguing. you can say you're kidding, but that argument constitutes half your post. Seems a bit much if you're being sarcastic.

There is a legitimate issue and difference of opinion here that you would think would be possible to debate.

Aside from the things you mention, like providing energy by hitting, enforcers can also provide energy and improve team morale by laying a well timed beat down. Or even just sticking up for a teammate who got cheapshotted. That means something to players. It's been said over and over again by players throughout the league over the years. They like when someone has their back or helps keep the flies off.

Another benefit is that guys often will play bigger if there's guys on the team who will drop the gloves and stick up for them. Non-fighters become more willing to muck it up and throw the extra hit. You can see it at even the more casual levels of sports. If the game is getting physical, you're more likely to get into it if there's someone on your team who can help handle things when it gets heated.

The big question is if that's worth a roster spot for a guy like Downey who can't do much else. In Downey's specific case, I don't think it is worth it. But the enforcer debate is not about whether or not they're the missing piece to the team winning the Cup. or at least it shouldn't be since most issues here aren't weighed in that context. Will pairing Ericsson with Lidstrom win us the Cup? Will keeping Miller or Ritola win us the Cup?

[Guest Shoreline]

I took you off my ignore list the day Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels shook hands on Raw.

I figured, what the hell.

Did Hart follow it up with a chair to the head and a Stone Cold Stunner?

I kid, I kid..

I honestly wasn't much into caring about Downey being signed. I hope for the best for whichever Wing gets signed, and I certainly never sling poo at them unless they are like a shoddy minor league player, but the love affair with Downey makes as much sense as the Canucks with Rory Fitzpatrick.

[RememberStevieY 5]

Downey is a class act, what a great guy.

I have to agree, very down to earth guy, one of the nicest Wings i've ever spoken to, during the 08 cup run i've talked to him many of times in the hotel lobby of MotorCity Casino. I hope he finds an office or coaching job even if its not in the NHL.

Good luck

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Who cares at that point? Franzen is already hurt and the damage is done. I've been made to believe that having Downey around prevented cheapshots according to this thread.

I'm not arguing that point though- I don't think anyone is arguing that enforcers prevent all/most injuries. The point is that the total number of cheapshots is decreased when a fighter is dressed and fights the opposing reckless players. There will be a number of cheapshots before the enforcer can engage, but they will decrease afterward.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Let me help you out, GMR. Pure enforcers (or "goons") carried by each team:

Anaheim: George Parros

Dallas: Krys Barch, Adam Burish

Phoenix: Paul Bissonnette

Los Angeles: Richard Clune

San Jose: Jamal Mayers, Frazer McLaren

Chicago: John Scott

St. Louis: Cam Janssen

Columbus: Jared Boll, Derek Dorsett

Nashville: Wade Belak

Calgary: Raitis Ivanans

Edmonton: Zack Stortini, Steve MacIntyre

Minnesota: Brad Staubitz

Colorado: David Koci

Vancouver: Darcy Hordichuk

Philadelphia: Jody Shelley

Pittsburgh: Eric Godard

NYR: Derek Boogaard

NYI: Trevor Gillies, Zenon Konopka

New Jersey: Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond

Toronto: Colton Orr, Jay Rosehill

Boston: Shawn Thornton, Brian McGrattan

Montreal: Ryan White

Buffalo: Cody McCormick

Ottawa: Matt Carkner

Atlanta: Eric Boulton, Boris Valabik

Washington: D.J. King, John Erskine

Florida: Andrew Peters

Tampa Bay: Nate Thompson

Carolina: Jay Harrison

This list excludes guys who can puck the puck in the net once in a blue moon. I will make one including guys who are a bit more versatile, but rack up tons of fights and penalty minutes as well, just to show how soft this team really is.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

This list excludes guys who can puck the puck in the net once in a blue moon. I will make one including guys who are a bit more versatile, but rack up tons of fights and penalty minutes as well, just to show how soft this team really is.

Because being soft or not only has to do with the amount of staged fights they get?

Thank you for putting the time to list the "enforcers" on each team, though. Took an extra look and learned something about those guys.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

I believe that Rosehill will have to be placed on waivers to join the Marlies. If the Wings are looking for an enforcer, he would be an excellent choice. He had 2 points in 15 games with the Leafs last season, and probably wouldn't mind sitting in the press-box for a while if he can stay up with the Wings. While it isn't likely, I would love to see this happen.

[newfy 695]

I believe that Rosehill will have to be placed on waivers to join the Marlies. If the Wings are looking for an enforcer, he would be an excellent choice. He had 2 points in 15 games with the Leafs last season, and probably wouldn't mind sitting in the press-box for a while if he can stay up with the Wings. While it isn't likely, I would love to see this happen.

Agreed. Rosehill needs to get out of Toronto, he is a pretty good hockey player but in his role with Brown and Orr ahead of him he isn't needed there.

He can skate as fast if not faster then Miller, throws big hits and would fight 30 times a year. I'm surprised he hasn't got a shot at the NHL full time yet.

And I just wanna say one thing, all the anti enforcer people who say the wings can win without toughness in the line up, I would love proof of that because there hasn't been a cup won without a straight up enforcer in the line up for the wings. I'm not saying I want someone like Downey who I think is past his prime but I would like to see us draft some 6'4 crazy sob and put him in the line up. I just don't get how anti enforcer people can say the wings have proven time and time again they can win without a goon when it has never actually happeened

Edited October 2, 2010 by newfy

[Buppy 1,720]

Agreed. Rosehill needs to get out of Toronto, he is a pretty good hockey player but in his role with Brown and Orr ahead of him he isn't needed there.

He can skate as fast if not faster then Miller, throws big hits and would fight 30 times a year. I'm surprised he hasn't got a shot at the NHL full time yet.

And I just wanna say one thing, all the anti enforcer people who say the wings can win without toughness in the line up, I would love proof of that because there hasn't been a cup won without a straight up enforcer in the line up for the wings. I'm not saying I want someone like Downey who I think is past his prime but I would like to see us draft some 6'4 crazy sob and put him in the line up. I just don't get how anti enforcer people can say the wings have proven time and time again they can win without a goon when it has never actually happeened

They've proven time and again that they can win while still at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors.

It's not like there have been many occasions where the Wings or any other team have gone without someone that could fight. 07 and 09 we didn't really have anyone and I suppose if you really want to believe that having Downey or another goon then would have made a difference, I probably can't change your mind.

But really, getting someone to come in and fight 10 times then not play in the playoffs isn't going to make one bit of difference. Thinking otherwise is stupid.

[esteef 2,679]

But really, getting someone to come in and fight 10 times then not play in the playoffs isn't going to make one bit of difference. Thinking otherwise is stupid.

Yet the Wings have done this season after season, dressing a toughie over more skilled players that they absolutely have in the minors. The enforcer creates an environment of toughness that rubs off on other players. This is they key point that is ignored. By the time the team gets to the playoffs, hopefully the enforcer isn't needed. If it didn't make one bit of difference, they wouldn't f***in' do it.

esteef

[Carman 387]

Yet the Wings have done this season after season, dressing a toughie over more skilled players that they absolutely have in the minors. The enforcer creates an environment of toughness that rubs off on other players. This is they key point that is ignored. By the time the team gets to the playoffs, hopefully the enforcer isn't needed. If it didn't make one bit of difference, they wouldn't f***in' do it.

esteef

That's why we have an enforcer now right?

[esteef 2,679]

That's why we have an enforcer now right?

So is this year the sparkling proof for the anti-enforcer argument? It hasn't even started yet!

esteef

[Carman 387]

So is this year the sparkling proof for the anti-enforcer argument? It hasn't even started yet!

esteef

Just saying, if having a terrible player that punches people was so important you would think the Wings would go out and sign one.

Maybe they aren't that important?

[Buppy 1,720]

Yet the Wings have done this season after season, dressing a toughie over more skilled players that they absolutely have in the minors. The enforcer creates an environment of toughness that rubs off on other players. This is they key point that is ignored. By the time the team gets to the playoffs, hopefully the enforcer isn't needed. If it didn't make one bit of difference, they wouldn't f***in' do it.

esteef

So in the late 90s/early 00s we had minor leaguers better than McCarty and Shannahan? Who did we have in the AHL in 08? Whose spot was May taking last year? Why didn't we have an enforcer in 07 or 09?

[esteef 2,679]

So in the late 90s/early 00s we had minor leaguers better than McCarty and Shannahan? Who did we have in the AHL in 08? Whose spot was May taking last year? Why didn't we have an enforcer in 07 or 09?

Shanahan is an enforcer now? Does that mean Drake was one too? May was a better skill player than anyone is GR last year? Did Downey and DMAC play in 07-08 and 08-09?

Questions are fun!

esteef

[Buppy 1,720]

Shanahan is an enforcer now? Does that mean Drake was one too? May was a better skill player than anyone is GR last year? Did Downey and DMAC play in 07-08 and 08-09?

Questions are fun!

esteef

Goon slappies tend to include Shanny as one of the fighters we've had.

You can include Drake if you want, doesn't change my question.

No, neither Downey nor McCarty were a part of the team in 06-07 (which is what I meant by 07) and they combined for 17 games in 09. We had Brad Norton for 6 games in 07. Neither year we really carried a regular enforcer. For that matter, we didn't have anyone in 05-06 either.

Yes, May was a more effective NHL player than what was available in the AHL last year. At least while he was on the roster. Abby was the only guy really any better and he was here for the majority of the time May was.

While there have been a few guys with more offensive skill, we had no one that would likely have been any better than Downey or May. And also, we didn't have to risk losing them to waivers to make room for those guys.

We're already facing losing Ritola. An enforcer would mean losing Miller or Eaves too. While I don't think it would make any difference, it would be pretty pointless and somewhat unprofessional considering we just signed those guys.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Buppy

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Yet the Wings have done this season after season, dressing a toughie over more skilled players that they absolutely have in the minors. The enforcer creates an environment of toughness that rubs off on other players. This is they key point that is ignored. By the time the team gets to the playoffs, hopefully the enforcer isn't needed. If it didn't make one bit of difference, they wouldn't f***in' do it.

esteef

A veteran enforcer isn't going to have stunted development by sitting most of any game in the NHL.

A young prospect will.

Also to say those in my position say they wouldn't make any bit of difference, I would like to point you to the straw man you have built up.

[titanium2 867]

Go Enforcer Groupies!

[Dominator2005 558]

Let me help you out, GMR. Pure enforcers (or "goons") carried by each team:

Anaheim: George Parros (Chipchura, Brodie, Voros)

Dallas: Krys Barch, Adam Burish (Steve Ott)

Phoenix: Paul Bissonnette

Los Angeles: Richard Clune (Westgarth)

San Jose: Jamal Mayers, Frazer McLaren

Chicago: John Scott (Boynton)

St. Louis: Cam Janssen (Crombeen)

Columbus: Jared Boll, Derek Dorsett

Nashville: Wade Belak

Calgary: Raitis Ivanans (Campbell, Jackman)

Edmonton: Zack Stortini, Steve MacIntyre (Vandermeer)

Minnesota: Brad Staubitz

Colorado: David Koci

Vancouver: Darcy Hordichuk (Rypien, Bieksa, O'Brien)

Philadelphia: Jody Shelley (Carcillo, Walker, Lappy, O'Donnel)

Pittsburgh: Eric Godard (Adams, Asham)

NYR: Derek Boogaard (Boyle, Prust)

NYI: Trevor Gillies, Zenon Konopka

New Jersey: Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond (Clarkson, Salvador, Mair)

Toronto: Colton Orr, Jay Rosehill (Brown)

Boston: Shawn Thornton, Brian McGrattan (Chara, Lucic, Campbell, Boychuk, Stuart, McQuide)

Montreal: Ryan White (Moen)

Buffalo: Cody McCormick (Rivet, Kassian)

Ottawa: Matt Carkner (Neil)

Atlanta: Eric Boulton, Boris Valabik (Eager, Thorburn)

Washington: D.J. King, John Erskine (Bradley, Steckel, Chimera)

Florida: Andrew Peters

Tampa Bay: Nate Thompson (Fritz)

Carolina: Jay Harrison

This list excludes guys who can puck the puck in the net once in a blue moon. I will make one including guys who are a bit more versatile, but rack up tons of fights and penalty minutes as well, just to show how soft this team really is.

I made small addition to your list of players who can fight... not only drop the gloves...