Watching old games, thoughts on hitting & where it's headed

[theman19 47]

I was watching old games that came with a documentary I got about the transfer of the whalers to the hurricanes. (It was five bucks guys, give me a break). One of the games it showed was the 01 playoff series between Carolina and New Jersey where Scott Stevens effectively destroyed the canes and ruined the career of shane willis, a player at that time who was considered a rising star.

The hit in question:

but i mean this is a very small snap shot in the career of a guy who ruined a lot of other people's careers. I know a lot of my philly buddies growing up told me till they were blue that if he hadn't clocked lindros, Lindros would have been a much more dominate player for much longer.

My point is, guys like Stevens, who hit to injure are suddenly and for no reason being penalized for it big time. I've heard all my life how stevens was an incredible D man, and "it was a travesty that he never won a norris". Well from my view if he was planted in todays nhl he'd be suspended every 10 or so games, good or bad.

Are guys like Stevens a thing of the past?

Edited November 23, 2010 by theman19

[jollymania 162]

I was watching old games that came with a documentary I got about the transfer of the whalers to the hurricanes. (It was five bucks guys, give me a break). One of the games it showed was the 01 playoff series between Carolina and New Jersey where Scott Stevens effectively destroyed the canes and ruined the career of shane willis, a player at that time who was considered a rising star.

The hit in question:

but i mean this is a very small snap shot in the career of a guy who ruined a lot of other people's careers. I know a lot of my philly buddies growing up told me till they were blue that if he hadn't clocked lindros, Lindros would have been a much more dominate player for much longer.

My point is, guys like Stevens, who hit to injure are suddenly and for no reason being penalized for it big time. I've heard all my life how stevens was an incredible D man, and "it was a travesty that he never won a norris". Well from my view if he was planted in todays nhl he'd be suspended every 10 or so games, good or bad.

Are guys like Stevens a thing of the past?

Sutton is the closest thing hit wise in todays game, maybe Wilson could morph into a poor man's stevens, Boychuck too

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Douglas Murray strikes me as a guy who hits to hurt.

[Buppy 1,720]

Defining Stevens from a handful of hits that would be suspendable today is doing the man an enormous disservice. He was a remarkably talented player, very solid with and without the puck in all three zones. He would still be an upper-echelon player today, just with fewer blindside hits.

And are you suggesting that it's a bad thing that the league is trying to reduce career-threatening head injuries?

[Konnan511 1,736]

Douglas Murray strikes me as a guy who hits to hurt.

Exactly. Stevens hits to hurt, Cooke hits to injury. Big difference.

[theman19 47]

Defining Stevens from a handful of hits that would be suspendable today is doing the man an enormous disservice. He was a remarkably talented player, very solid with and without the puck in all three zones. He would still be an upper-echelon player today, just with fewer blindside hits.

And are you suggesting that it's a bad thing that the league is trying to reduce career-threatening head injuries?

Not at all. But I think you're doing my post a disservice by acting like i'm pigeon holeing the man into something he's not. When people think of scott stevens they think of one of three things,

The hit on lindros

The hit on kariya

The hit on some other player that sticks out. *(for wings fans its the hit on kozlov)

That's just the way it is, i'm not judging the man, he's among the best open ice hitters in nhl history. What I am saying is that with the league doing what they are doing, a player like Steven's career would have been heavily effected. Yes he'd still be a great D man, but would he be a hall of famer? Would he be held in the super high regard he is now if he played under the current "hit to the head witch-hunt" probably not. Let's make no mistake, I'm not damning the man at all, I hold him in great regard. I'm also not damning the NHL, it's just the evolution of the game.

I'm just curious why now? Why after 100 years is it suddenly important to go after the guys who make their living by ending people's careers and will it effect the next generation of nhl D men.

[Konnan511 1,736]

When i think of Stevens I think of a HOF hard hitting mean SOB who was a great leader and also respected the game.

I'm just curious why now? Why after 100 years is it suddenly important to go after the guys who make their living by ending people's careers and will it effect the next generation of nhl D men.

Why after 40 years wear goalie masks mandated? Why after 70 years were player helmets mandated? Why after 100 years is there a carack down on player ending other players careers?

The answer is quite simple.

[Buppy 1,720]

Not at all. But I think you're doing my post a disservice by acting like i'm pigeon holeing the man into something he's not. When people think of scott stevens they think of one of three things,

The hit on lindros

The hit on kariya

The hit on some other player that sticks out. *(for wings fans its the hit on kozlov)

That's just the way it is, i'm not judging the man, he's among the best open ice hitters in nhl history. What I am saying is that with the league doing what they are doing, a player like Steven's career would have been heavily effected. Yes he'd still be a great D man, but would he be a hall of famer? Would he be held in the super high regard he is now if he played under the current "hit to the head witch-hunt" probably not. Let's make no mistake, I'm not damning the man at all, I hold him in great regard. I'm also not damning the NHL, it's just the evolution of the game.

I'm just curious why now? Why after 100 years is it suddenly important to go after the guys who make their living by ending people's careers and will it effect the next generation of nhl D men.

You are pigeonholing him. He would certainly still be a HOFer, and still be considered one of the best defenseman of his era. First, let's not pretend that the game is that much different now. Two, don't assume he wouldn't adjust his game to better conform to existing rules. He would still be one of (if not the) most feared hitter in the game today.

Suggesting that he would be anything less than what he was because there's a rule against blindside hits to the head is foolish. I'd say most of his hits would still be legal under current rules. He was a great player because he played great, not because he hit people in the head, regardless of what he's best known for.

As for your curiosity; I'd say better late than never. Hard to believe you're questioning the importance of trying to minimize career-ending injuries. Better question would be why it took so long. It is just a game. Preventing injuriy should always be among the highest priorities. Preventing intentional injuries even higher. If you have to hurt someone to win, you shouldn't win.

[T.Low 1,011]

i]... it's just the evolution of the game.

I'm just curious why now? Why after 100 years [/i]is it suddenly important to go after the guys who make their living by ending people's careers and will it effect the next generation of nhl D men.

Almost sounds like you are making more of an observation than a question, because you answer it there at the end of the previous paragraph. But whatever it is, I agree that it's legitimate point: A hit that used to be rewarded with adulation of hockey peers is now penalized and looked down on.

IMO, it's evolution.

The post lockout rule changes did away with the clutching and grabbing and hooking and thus the game has gotten quite a bit faster; scary fast in some incidences. The likelyhood for bigger injury hits more often, is a result of that less inhibited speed. Because of this, and the fact that players in general are bigger, faster, and stronger than ever before, the game is faster than it has ever been.

Now, the owners simply want to protect their assets a little more these days. No businessman wants to be on the hook for $5m/yr for Concussion Head Guy. It is similar to what the NFL has done via rule changes to try to protect it's quaterbacks and recievers. Jack Lambert would never be able to hit guys coming across the middle like that these days.

[theman19 47]

Almost sounds like you are making more of an observation than a question, because you answer it there at the end of the previous paragraph. But whatever it is, I agree that it's legitimate point: A hit that used to be rewarded with adulation of hockey peers is now penalized and looked down on.

IMO, it's evolution.

The post lockout rule changes did away with the clutching and grabbing and hooking and thus the game has gotten quite a bit faster; scary fast in some incidences. The likelyhood for bigger injury hits more often, is a result of that less inhibited speed. Because of this, and the fact that players in general are bigger, faster, and stronger than ever before, the game is faster than it has ever been.

Now, the owners simply want to protect their assets a little more these days. No businessman wants to be on the hook for $5m/yr for Concussion Head Guy. It is similar to what the NFL has done via rule changes to try to protect it's quaterbacks and recievers. Jack Lambert would never be able to hit guys coming across the middle like that these days.

thank you, someone who answered my post subjectively rather than criticizing it's context because they think I'm insulting scott stevens. It's not about Scott, put any name you want in there,....hell eddie shore if you want. Point is, as T. Low said, what was once the mark of a true tough as nails D man, is now a "dirty hit". The evolution of from that has about as much to do with goalie masks as cooperalls did with hockey fashion Konnan. You can say they're both due to player safety but you're examples are about changes in equipment for the players benefit. We're talking about a complete change in the way the game is played.

[Buppy 1,720]

thank you, someone who answered my post subjectively rather than criticizing it's context because they think I'm insulting scott stevens. It's not about Scott, put any name you want in there,....hell eddie shore if you want. Point is, as T. Low said, what was once the mark of a true tough as nails D man, is now a "dirty hit". The evolution of from that has about as much to do with goalie masks as cooperalls did with hockey fashion Konnan. You can say they're both due to player safety but you're examples are about changes in equipment for the players benefit. We're talking about a complete change in the way the game is played.

Stop over-dramatizing. It is not a complete change to anything. Not even a complete change to hitting, which is itself only one aspect of the game.

It's easy enough to tell your intent with the Stevens thing. You're trying to criticize headshot/hitting rules by suggesting that this or that great player relied on those hits for their greatness. It simply isn't true. There isn't a single great player in any sport who was great because of their ability to injure someone.

You're tacitly trying to suggest that regulating the brutality of the sport is somehow hamstringing potential greatness. Again, it simply isn't true.

[Guest Crymson]

Lindros hit to hurt, too.

[theman19 47]

Lindros hit to hurt, too.

yes he did, lots of people from that generation of players made their living hitting that way.

My observation is with the NHL on the warpath about those particular breed of hits, are we seeing the end of players who play the game with that edge. When a guy comes barreling through the neutral zone with his head down, in 20 years will he have to worry about getting blindsided. If not, that's a damn shame. I get player saftey, but why not change the equipment instead of the way you hit someone.

A lot of older ex players have advocated for the return of padded shoulder pads, vs the hard plastic road warrior ones we have now. I can see their point, 30 years ago when you hit a guy on the chin with your shoulder you hit him with your shoulder and what amounted to a big pillow. Now you hit him with this hard plastic disk, that adds a lot more force and impact to an already high impact situation.

[redwingfan19 293]

hockey is getting soft, by reading through this thread, so are the fans. Keep your head up, know who's on the ice, or pay the price. Hockey 101.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

hockey is getting soft, by reading through this thread, so are the fans. Keep your head up, know who's on the ice, or pay the price. Hockey 101.

This.

Seems funny to me that sometimes, when there are multiple players who see the jaw rattling hit about to happen....I don't notice any players on the same team screaming something like.....

HEY, LOOK UP! YOU'RE ABOUT TO GET CREAMED!! just sayin'.

[redwingfan19 293]

Obviously guys won't always see the hit coming but get those arms and elbows upn get your stick up there to. Guys will think twice about hitting you if they get a face full of splinters next time they go to make a hit.

[T.Low 1,011]

A lot of older ex players have advocated for the return of padded shoulder pads,

F.Micheal and I also brought up that idea in a hitting thread last week. The amount of armor the player's wear these days works just as much as a weapon as it does protection. If a guy is more exposed due to wearing less protective shoulder and elbow pads, he is going to slow down the hit a lot. The trick there will be to formulate equipment that can somehow discourage 25mph hits but still be protective for 95mph slapshots.

It never ceases to amaze me how much crap an OP gets around here.

[eva unit zero 271]

yes he did, lots of people from that generation of players made their living hitting that way.

My observation is with the NHL on the warpath about those particular breed of hits, are we seeing the end of players who play the game with that edge. When a guy comes barreling through the neutral zone with his head down, in 20 years will he have to worry about getting blindsided. If not, that's a damn shame. I get player saftey, but why not change the equipment instead of the way you hit someone.

Yes, a player should always be keeping his head up.

But at the same time, if he does have his head up and is going to get hit, he shouldn't be hit in the head. How many guys do we see go for the head with a shoulder or an elbow, blindside or not?

Those kinds of hits are what the NHL is trying to eliminate. Hitting to hurt is one thing. That means that you are laying hard hits, clean hits, that are painful and make the opponent remember it. Hitting to injure is a completely different thing. The NHL is doing away with the second one, and if you disagree with that, you should go watch some UFC or something.

[kook_10 1,705]

A lot of older ex players have advocated for the return of padded shoulder pads, vs the hard plastic road warrior ones we have now. I can see their point, 30 years ago when you hit a guy on the chin with your shoulder you hit him with your shoulder and what amounted to a big pillow. Now you hit him with this hard plastic disk, that adds a lot more force and impact to an already high impact situation.

I think you have a misguided notion about old shoulder pads. They weren't like pillows at all. They were more like wearing a stiff layer of cardboard. In fact, the new shoulder pads are much softer, but they just have plastic caps on the pads. The new pads disperse the energy of impact on the person wearing them. Because of that guys aren't afraid to go at each other at full speed. With the smaller pads, if you took a huge run at a guy it hurt, and you had a better chance if getting injured yourself. The old pads also didn't go far down the chest at all so you also stood a good chance of getting a stick or an elbow to the ribs. Remember how much smaller elbow pads were too? The old pads actually hurt more in general to places like your shoulder, ribs etc but because those are so protected now the real damage comes from guys hitting with more momentum than ever.

Edited November 23, 2010 by kook_10

[newfy 695]

When i think of Stevens I think of a HOF hard hitting mean SOB who was a great leader and also respected the game.

Why after 40 years wear goalie masks mandated? Why after 70 years were player helmets mandated? Why after 100 years is there a carack down on player ending other players careers?

The answer is quite simple.

I dont think it is that simple. I've heard people talk about how there was more respect for other players in the game when there wasn't helmets. Minor hockey players today grow up acting like tough guys behind cages, getting their sticks up and so forth. If players didnt have the helmets on I doubt you see people throwing themselves around as recklessly as they do now.

[wings1110 184]

the NHL wouldnt have to make rules about hits to the head if they would just get rid of the instigator rule. the guy throwing dirty hits would just get his ass kicked.

Edited November 23, 2010 by wings1110

[newfy 695]

Yes, a player should always be keeping his head up.

But at the same time, if he does have his head up and is going to get hit, he shouldn't be hit in the head. How many guys do we see go for the head with a shoulder or an elbow, blindside or not?

Those kinds of hits are what the NHL is trying to eliminate. Hitting to hurt is one thing. That means that you are laying hard hits, clean hits, that are painful and make the opponent remember it. Hitting to injure is a completely different thing. The NHL is doing away with the second one, and if you disagree with that, you should go watch some UFC or something.

Eva give your head a shake. Go watch some UFC? Yeah because UFC and hard hockey hits have a tonne in common right?

If a guy has his head down he should be able to get laid out, blind side or not. If you target the head blindside I can see why it should be illegal but if its a north south hit and youre the bigger guy then what happens? Maybe your shoulder catches some head..should you then just pull up and let the guy skate around you?

[ACallToArms 270]

It's simple really. If you don't want to get hit, just do this