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Datsyuk in the Hart conversation


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#21 Konnan511

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:43 PM

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weird, my posts are auto +ing themselves

I wish mine did, then I'd get the false sense of security that my posts actually make sense ha

Crosby wins this hands down, unless Crosby is out for the season at some point.
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#22 Stolberg

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:44 PM

I'm still upset Datsyuk didn't win the Hart in 2009, when he clearly deserved it over both Ovechkin and Malkin, but that's a separate argument. The Hart, aka League's Most Valuable Player should be not the most proficient scorer (as we have an award for that) but the most complete player in the game. How can that not be Datsyuk? Crosby's numbers are ridiculous, I'm not trying to deny anything on him at all, but all the points in the world shouldn't win you the Hart. It's not going to matter, as previously stated, he (likely Crosby) with the most points will be your MVP. People need to open their eyes...


so you think datsyuk should win the hart based on criteria that isn't used for the hart?
actually.. it's basically what the selke trophy is now



#23 T-Ruff

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:53 PM

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Cooke - Talbot - Asham
Conner - Letestu - Kennedy
Rupp - Adams - Godard

The forward lineup the Pens iced last game. Pathetic :lol:
The Penguins are my least favourite team in the league, but anyone who doesn't think Crosby is the hands down Hart winner at this point in the season loses all credibility on the topic of Penguins/Crosby, they're clearly blinded by hate.

#24 edicius

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 06:56 PM

Even I have to admit that Crosby's the frontrunner for the Hart. Without his scoring, the Pens wouldn't be anywhere near where they are right now.

I feel dirty...

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#25 T.Low

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:26 PM

As implied all throughout this thread, the difference is that Crosby is carrying the lackluster Penguin team on his back with an incredible performance and awesome production numbers, while Datsyuk is having an awesome all round year on a team chock full of contributors, save one.

I'm really hoping for a SCF rematch so Wings can beat Crosby and his Penns.

#26 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:42 PM

You seem to be confusing the most valuable player to the most talented player. Crosby is carrying his team more than Datsyuk. The Pens would be WAY worse off without him in the lineup. The Wings would survive without Datsyuk.

As much as it would pain me to see Crosby win another award, you're right. He's not just on a tear, he's keeping that team going.

It wouldn't be fun, but the wings could survive without Dats. Honestly I thinking losing Lids would make a greater impact so I'd put him as the Wing most deserving of the Hart at this point, with honorable mention to Datsyuk.

#27 toby91_ca

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:03 PM

Crosby with another 2 goals tonight...20 goals in his last 17 games, craziness.

#28 eva unit zero

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

I'm still upset Datsyuk didn't win the Hart in 2009, when he clearly deserved it over both Ovechkin and Malkin, but that's a separate argument. The Hart, aka League's Most Valuable Player should be not the most proficient scorer (as we have an award for that) but the most complete player in the game. How can that not be Datsyuk?


Easy; it's Zetterberg.

Crosby's numbers are ridiculous, I'm not trying to deny anything on him at all, but all the points in the world shouldn't win you the Hart. It's not going to matter, as previously stated, he (likely Crosby) with the most points will be your MVP. People need to open their eyes...


And see that...

THE HART TROPHY IS NOT THE "BEST PLAYER" AWARD. QUIT WHINING.

While the Hart has many times been awarded to a player who was far from the most valuable player, arguing the fact that Dats, Lids, or anyone else should get it because they're a better player, a better 'all-around' player, or anything else other than more valuable to their team is irrelevant to this discussion.

If the Hart trophy were awarded based on the award's actual criteria, Wayne Gretzky would have won perhaps 4 of the 9 he actually won, and Steve Yzerman would have come away with at least one for 1989, and could have been argued as the most deserving Hart winner in 1988 over Lemieux, 1991 over Hull, and 1992 over Messier. 1993 could also be added to the list, however Ray Bourque and Ed Belfour might have arguments to the contrary.

It's not about who the best player is. It's about who is the most needed by his team. Which one key player was more necessary for his team to win than any other player in the league? Right now it's Crosby. I don't know if I would argue Dats has ever been Hart worthy; he plays on a team with Z, Lids, etc. Take Dats out and the Wings still win games. I would probably say he's not even the Wings' MVP. Lidstrom is.


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#29 egroen

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:59 PM

Right now, Thomas is the clear favorite for the Hart, and yes, it is not even close.

I do not think he will maintain it, but Thomas is on target for by far the greatest season of any goaltender in history.

Anyone want to argue the same for Crosby?

Letang over Lidstrom is a complete joke. Last year Lidstrom was the best defensive player in the world, and he is •better• this season.
Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

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#30 eva unit zero

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:05 AM

Right now, Thomas is the clear favorite for the Hart, and yes, it is not even close.

I do not think he will maintain it, but Thomas is on target for by far the greatest season of any goaltender in history.

Anyone want to argue the same for Crosby?

Letang over Lidstrom is a complete joke. Last year Lidstrom was the best defensive player in the world, and he is •better• this season.


Thomas has two losses, an overtime loss, and he played the first 40 minutes of a 5-3 loss to Washington which ended up being credited as a loss for Tuukka Rask.

In the four Bruin losses Thomas has played in, the Bruins have scored three or more goals three times, and were shut out once. Rask has been in net during seven Bruin losses. The Bruins scored two goals twice, three goals during the Washington game, and one goal in each of the four other losses.

Thomas is having a great season, but so is Rask. They are playing for the same team; why are their win/loss records so wildly different? The answer: because the offense has not shown up for Rask. Rask's only win was a 4-0 shutout where he made 41 saves, but Boston's second goal didn't come until there were only five minutes left to play.

Thomas is very valuable, but Boston is not in a situation where Thomas is carrying a team that would otherwise not be winning to a bunch of wins. Boston averages 3.93 GF/G in Thomas' wins. Both of his regulation losses were the Bruins being shut out. His OTL was a shootout loss to break a 3-3 tie.

So as you can see, The Bruins' ability to win rests on their offense, not their goaltending. The offense has simply had more 'off' nights for Rask than Thomas, which has led to Rask's poor W/L record.

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#31 egroen

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:19 AM

Thomas has two losses, an overtime loss, and he played the first 40 minutes of a 5-3 loss to Washington which ended up being credited as a loss for Tuukka Rask.

In the four Bruin losses Thomas has played in, the Bruins have scored three or more goals three times, and were shut out once. Rask has been in net during seven Bruin losses. The Bruins scored two goals twice, three goals during the Washington game, and one goal in each of the four other losses.

Thomas is having a great season, but so is Rask. They are playing for the same team; why are their win/loss records so wildly different? The answer: because the offense has not shown up for Rask. Rask's only win was a 4-0 shutout where he made 41 saves, but Boston's second goal didn't come until there were only five minutes left to play.

Thomas is very valuable, but Boston is not in a situation where Thomas is carrying a team that would otherwise not be winning to a bunch of wins. Boston averages 3.93 GF/G in Thomas' wins. Both of his regulation losses were the Bruins being shut out. His OTL was a shootout loss to break a 3-3 tie.

So as you can see, The Bruins' ability to win rests on their offense, not their goaltending. The offense has simply had more 'off' nights for Rask than Thomas, which has led to Rask's poor W/L record.

Same argument can be made of Pittsburgh's defense.

Arguments can be made for either when talking of the ridiculous literal definition of the Hart (who cares?), but Tim Thomas is on pace for a much better season than Crosby.
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"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#32 eva unit zero

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:27 AM

Same argument can be made of Pittsburgh's defense.

Arguments can be made for either when talking of the ridiculous literal definition of the Hart (who cares?), but Tim Thomas is on pace for a much better season than Crosby.


You're saying that when awarding a trophy, you should ignore the criteria on which it is intended to be judged upon?

Great, let's give the Art Ross trophy to Jonathan Ericsson, and the Maurice Richard trophy to Jakub Kindl! The Vezina can go to Ozzie since he deserved to win it in at least one of 1996 and 2008.

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#33 Nev

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:46 AM

Even I have to admit that Crosby's the frontrunner for the Hart. Without his scoring, the Pens wouldn't be anywhere near where they are right now.

I feel dirty...



Thankfully, you said it so I don't have to.
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#34 egroen

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 01:55 AM

You're saying that when awarding a trophy, you should ignore the criteria on which it is intended to be judged upon?

Great, let's give the Art Ross trophy to Jonathan Ericsson, and the Maurice Richard trophy to Jakub Kindl! The Vezina can go to Ozzie since he deserved to win it in at least one of 1996 and 2008.

The literal definition of the Hart should weigh about as much historically as the Lady Byng, and yet it is the regular season award with by far the most weight.

Luckily, the literal definition has been ignored most years (with the notable exception of the 50s), and the award has most often gone to arguably the most valuable player in the league, not to merely his team. 'Most Valuable to his Team' is better as message board fodder than it is as a major award.

Or else Mark Streit would have ran away with the Hart in 09.

Edited by egroen, 09 December 2010 - 01:56 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#35 Herr Hockey

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 11:28 AM

Why even argue about the criteria for winning the Hart? Even if it was awarded to the best player, it would still be Crosby. Don't be such homers. Datsyuk is a top 3 player in the game, but even given Datsyuks defensive play, I'd pick Crosby over him 100 out of 100 times if I were building a team.
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#36 Kira

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:24 PM

As much as I love Pasha, and God knows I do, he doesn't stand a snowball's chance of winning the Hart. Why? That douchebag in Pittsburgh who has everyone and his brother kissing his ass and treating him like he's the second coming. The fact that he isn't means nothing.

I'm more than sure that Pasha will take home another Selke trophy, which I'm sure won't break his heart (nor mine), but the chances of him walking off with the Hart are about as good as mine for being 5'7", blonde, gorgeous and loved. Not likely.
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#37 Stolberg

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:29 PM

As much as I love Pasha, and God knows I do, he doesn't stand a snowball's chance of winning the Hart. Why? That douchebag in Pittsburgh who has everyone and his brother kissing his ass and treating him like he's the second coming. The fact that he isn't means nothing.


that is precisely why

you nailed it right on the head



#38 titanium2

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:37 PM

I'm more than sure that Pasha will take home another Selke trophy


Really? I'm not so sure about that one.

#39 HankthaTank

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:39 PM

Yeah, Plekanec and Kesler seem to be quite high on most lists.
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#40 dat's sick

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 05:14 AM

Really? I'm not so sure about that one.

Why wouldn't he win it this year, assuming he keeps playing like he is?





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