217 replies to this topic

[Doc Holliday]

Yeah so he got better with the Islanders, that means Detroit should hang his jersey? Osgood was never an elite goalie during his time in the NHL, a good goalie yes.

A good goaltender who produced no matter what team he is on.

I don't think he should have his jersey retired, but don't sell him down the river with unsubstantiated crap to make a point.

I cant believe you think he belongs with Howe, Yzermans, Sawchuk etc. These are all time greats, not just good players

I can't believe you think I said that. Read my first post on this thread, genius.

[Barrie]

Fair enough, its all opinion, and I'm in no way deminishing Orr's ability... I don't know why everyone looks at it that way, if anything it just shows how highly I think of Lids.

Right it's all opinion. It's just like the greatest player off all time debate. I think it's 1) Orr, 2) Howe, and 3) Gretzky. However, I always say, I understand if someone has them ranked in another order. That's the order of who I'd want on my team.

[Barrie]

Zetterberg would have won the Conn Smythe again. Ozzie was absolutely stellar in the first two games of that series, then very average after that.

I don't know man, I know Zetterberg had 24 pts in 23 games, but Ozzie had a 2.01 GAA and a .926 SV%.

The sad thing is, we'll never know...

[newfy]

A good goaltender who produced no matter what team he is on.

I don't think he should have his jersey retired, but don't sell him down the river with unsubstantiated crap to make a point.



I can't believe you think I said that. Read my first post on this thread, genius.

Well if you dont want his number retired then why are you even arguing what I am saying? And you think his numbers improved with the Islander? His save % stayed right about on par with what it had been his whole time with the wings in his first season then in his second year with the islanders it plummetted below .900, genius..

He didn't "produce" with the Islanders, he was a solid goalie in his first season, just like his whole career. Got the job done but was never anything special, then he fell off the map completely.

So tell me where anything I said is unsubstantiated?

[Doc Holliday]

Well if you dont want his number retired then why are you even arguing what I am saying? And you think his numbers improved with the Islander? His save % stayed right about on par with what it had been his whole time with the wings in his first season then in his second year with the islanders it plummetted below .900, genius..

My point was you are using bull to support why Osgood shouldn't have his jersey retired.
His play didn't drop off much, if at all, when he went to other teams than the Red Wings. That is fact. He won games and took them to the playoffs each of those years.

He didn't "produce" with the Islanders, he was a solid goalie in his first season, just like his whole career. Got the job done but was never anything special, then he fell off the map completely.

He didn't fall off the map because he was still an NHL goaltender and was able to find a starting position regardless.

So tell me where anything I said is unsubstantiated?

Already showed you multiple times.

[newfy]

My point was you are using bull to support why Osgood shouldn't have his jersey retired.
His play didn't drop off much, if at all, when he went to other teams than the Red Wings. That is fact. He won games and took them to the playoffs each of those years.

He didn't fall off the map because he was still an NHL goaltender and was able to find a starting position regardless.

Already showed you multiple times.

First of all, Ive already proven that nothing I said isn't true. You say he improved going to the islanders, when really his save percentage dropped below .900. What you said is unsubstantiated.

He found a starting position with 2 teams that have had a history of not being that great, especially the islanders, and he played very sub par. Maybe he didn't fall off the map but he did not play better with them like you seem to wanna tell everyone

Anyways, find me something in this thread that I said about Ozzie that wasn't true and then maybe I'll take you and yuor man crush on Ozzie seriously

[haroldsnepsts]

First of all, Ive already proven that nothing I said isn't true. You say he improved going to the islanders, when really his save percentage dropped below .900. What you said is unsubstantiated.

He found a starting position with 2 teams that have had a history of not being that great, especially the islanders, and he played very sub par. Maybe he didn't fall off the map but he did not play better with them like you seem to wanna tell everyone

Anyways, find me something in this thread that I said about Ozzie that wasn't true and then maybe I'll take you and yuor man crush on Ozzie seriously

2001 Sv% .903 with Detroit
2002 Sv& .910 with Isles

then the next year his numbers went down with the Isles when he was traded to St. Louis.

Though then on St. Louis it went back up to .910%.


As for getting his number retired, I don't see it happening. It's the same problem with the HHOF (though he has a better chance there). Ozzy has been very good for a long time, but he's never really been elite. I don't see his number making it to the rafters.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 11 December 2010 - 07:29 PM.

[Doc Holliday]

2001 Sv% .903 with Detroit
2002 Sv& .910 with Isles

then the next year his numbers went down with the Isles when he was traded to St. Louis.

Though then on St. Louis it went back up to .910%.


As for getting his number retired, I don't see it happening. It's the same problem with the HHOF (though he has a better chance there). Ozzy has been very good for a long time, but he's never really been elite. I don't see his number making it to the rafters.

Bingo. Newfy doesn't know what he is talking about. Big surprise.

[Barrie]

FYI, at the moment, Ozzie's SV% this year is .905

Edit: .908 now at the end of the 2nd period.

Edited by Barrie, 11 December 2010 - 08:34 PM.

[eva unit zero]

It's the same as Gretzky is the best player to play the game, no question about that, still there will be some people putting lemieux over him for whatever reason.

It couldn't be because he produced the same kind of offensive numbers as Gretzky and was an literally an unstoppable force, yet he played for a team that did not have any of the support that Gretzky did. He was bigger, stronger, faster, and better defensively than Gretzky while showing the same kind of offensive dominance. He also battled cancer his entire career yet still remained one of the league's best at all times.

My thinking is that Osgood won't be in the rafters simply because the Red Wings have such high qualifications. If Osgood's number was put up in the rafters it would then, inevitably, bring out the question of why he was chosen over other players - "if he got there, then why not Fedorov, why not Shanny?" If you compare his impact to that of those two players, it would be unfair that the honour not be theirs as well. The Red Wings have only chosen iconic players that have contributed to the culture of the franchise.

Going by your last statement, Ozzie is a lock. As for the Fedorov/Shanahan comparison; something that appears to be a requirement for the wings to retire your number is that you begin your career with the team. Out goes Shanny, who was already a star when he joined the Wings. Fedorov had a massive contract dispute which allegedly involved broken promises by the Wings, and he left the team for less than he was reportedly offered by Holland. Had he stayed, he's a lock, but with that departure there's almost no chance.
Osgood was elite at his position and contributed greatly to deep Cup runs and wins just as much or more than Shanny, and arguably as much/more than Fedorov.

The rafters in the Joe are reserved for all time greats.

Howe the greatest most well rounded player all time

Lindsey and Abel were both part of one of the greatest lines all time that was part of a dynasty and arguably best team of all time in 52

Sawchuk is a top 5 goalie all time, maybe top 3

Yzerman is one of, if not the best leader in the history of the game and if he had not reinvented his game to win, he wouldd be much higher on the all time list.

Lidstrom will go up. I think its dumb to say he's better then Orr but he is at least op 5 all time.

Does Ozzie belong in the same breath as any of these players? No he wasn't even close. He won 2 cups as a starter and other then that was not anything very special, just a solid goalie on a great team. You dont get your number retired fr that

Ozzie was robbed of the Vezina in 96, and should have been at least a finalist in 08. He was one of the league's top 5 goalies throughout the 90s, and 2008-09 was the first time in his career he had a losing record in the regular season. He has 314 wins as a Wing, enough to place him 19th on the All-Time career list. Only three goalies have won more for a single team. Sawchuk won 351 in 734 for the Wings; Ozzie has 314 in 559. Let him play another 175 games and let's see if he wins 37 of them.
More Red Wing goaltending records belong to Osgood than to Sawchuk. Thought you should know.

[newfy]

Bingo. Newfy doesn't know what he is talking about. Big surprise.

Osgood the 4 years leading up to the new millenium

.911
.910
.913
.907

So you think when Osgood went to the islanders he got better when he got a .910 save percentage. Looks to me like he stayed pretty much the exact same as his last 5 years of his career pretty much.

But of course you would only wanna bend stats to look in your favour eh doc, big surprise there since an intelligent argument isn't something you usually make

It couldn't be because he produced the same kind of offensive numbers as Gretzky and was an literally an unstoppable force, yet he played for a team that did not have any of the support that Gretzky did. He was bigger, stronger, faster, and better defensively than Gretzky while showing the same kind of offensive dominance. He also battled cancer his entire career yet still remained one of the league's best at all times.



Going by your last statement, Ozzie is a lock. As for the Fedorov/Shanahan comparison; something that appears to be a requirement for the wings to retire your number is that you begin your career with the team. Out goes Shanny, who was already a star when he joined the Wings. Fedorov had a massive contract dispute which allegedly involved broken promises by the Wings, and he left the team for less than he was reportedly offered by Holland. Had he stayed, he's a lock, but with that departure there's almost no chance.
Osgood was elite at his position and contributed greatly to deep Cup runs and wins just as much or more than Shanny, and arguably as much/more than Fedorov.



Ozzie was robbed of the Vezina in 96, and should have been at least a finalist in 08. He was one of the league's top 5 goalies throughout the 90s, and 2008-09 was the first time in his career he had a losing record in the regular season. He has 314 wins as a Wing, enough to place him 19th on the All-Time career list. Only three goalies have won more for a single team. Sawchuk won 351 in 734 for the Wings; Ozzie has 314 in 559. Let him play another 175 games and let's see if he wins 37 of them.
More Red Wing goaltending records belong to Osgood than to Sawchuk. Thought you should know.

Ozzie has a lot oof wing records sure, but is wins really something that speaks about how good he is. I agree he was a very solid goalie most of his career, but that many wins isn't just on Ozzie alone, he played behind great teams.

Sawchuks talent level is ten times that of Osgoods he was an amazing goaltender from all recollections, an all time great.

All time greats get in the wings rafters, does ozzy honestly qualify?

[Doc Holliday]

Osgood the 4 years leading up to the new millenium

.911
.910
.913
.907

So you think when Osgood went to the islanders he got better when he got a .910 save percentage. Looks to me like he stayed pretty much the exact same as his last 5 years of his career pretty much.

Backtrack backtrack backtrack. The key to any Newfy argument.

So did he play as bad as he did last season or no? Seems to me like your statistics that you brought up to rebut me go against your original premise.
Strange how that works. Also strange how you don't prove that Osgood's years on the Isles were so much worse than when he was on the Wings. Seems like his statistical improvement getting there wouldn't help your case, would it?

But of course you would only wanna bend stats to look in your favour eh doc, big surprise there since an intelligent argument isn't something you usually make

You can start making quips when you actually have something.

[gcom007]

First of all, Ive already proven that nothing I said isn't true. You say he improved going to the islanders, when really his save percentage dropped below .900. What you said is unsubstantiated.

He found a starting position with 2 teams that have had a history of not being that great, especially the islanders, and he played very sub par. Maybe he didn't fall off the map but he did not play better with them like you seem to wanna tell everyone

Anyways, find me something in this thread that I said about Ozzie that wasn't true and then maybe I'll take you and yuor man crush on Ozzie seriously

Wait, so joining a team that was in last place the previous season and (as many in the New York press said) carrying that same team into the playoffs without the advantage of a great Detroit defense is no big deal?

Can you really not connect the dots simply via stats that he would've had to elevate his game significantly to keep his numbers consistent with those racked up on a far better Detroit team? Did you actually follow his play while he was away even, or are you just going by stats and a bunch of message board, armchair gossip?

You'd be right to suggest that his second year away was a mess, though there were a lot of factors that played into that. But that first year with the Islanders was a strong, strong year for Osgood personally, as again, he basically carried a last place team into the playoffs. The third year was a better effort from his as well before he returned back to Detroit after the lockout. That year he battled injuries early on but he was playing strong hockey by the end of the year, far superior to that of joker Legace who never should've started in the playoffs...ever.

[digitaljohn88]

Osgood's first season with the Islanders is currently their best regular season in the last 25 years. He joined them the year after they lost 51 games. Whether he carried the team or not, it was a damn good year for him.

Edited by digitaljohn88, 11 December 2010 - 10:12 PM.

[newfy]

Backtrack backtrack backtrack. The key to any Newfy argument.

So did he play as bad as he did last season or no? Seems to me like your statistics that you brought up to rebut me go against your original premise.
Strange how that works. Also strange how you don't prove that Osgood's years on the Isles were so much worse than when he was on the Wings. Seems like his statistical improvement getting there wouldn't help your case, would it?

You can start making quips when you actually have something.

Ok so Doc you think Ozzy became a better goalie and that his stats improved when he was in new york. He had a good year that was on par with most in Detroit, a .910 save percentage except for one basically and the he had a completely horrible one with a sub 900 save percentage.

You call that becoming a better goalie then he was with detroit? His average save % the past 6 years in detroit is .909 and the reason that is so low is because he had a bad season his last one there where he got WAIVED. If you really wanna say Ozzie improved when he had a .910 save percentage then so be it but I call that being his average self the past 7 or so years. The year after that in New York where you say his numbers improved he had a sub 900 save percentage.

I never said he was so much worse with the Isles in the first place anyways, I said his play wasn't as good which it wasn't as evidenced by his second year. He had an average year and a horrible one. Where is the improvement?

[Barrie]

Sawchuks talent level is ten times that of Osgoods he was an amazing goaltender from all recollections, an all time great.

In Sawchuck's first time around as a Red Wing he was, but his numbers weren't anywhere close to where they were when he came back after a couple years in Boston.

http://www.hockey-re.../sawchte01.html

Edit: Take out Sawchuck's first 6 years, and he's a very different goalie.

I do think Sawchuck's number should be retired no doubt. I, just like eva, have looked at Ozzie's stats as a Red Wing, and they were a lot better than I thought. He's the 2nd best goalie in Red Wings history, and holds most of the Red Wings goalie playoff records!

Edited by Barrie, 12 December 2010 - 12:54 AM.

[newfy]

In Sawchuck's first time around as a Red Wing he was, but his numbers weren't anywhere close to where they were when he came back after a couple years in Boston.

http://www.hockey-re.../sawchte01.html

Edit: Take out Sawchuck's first 6 years, and he's a very different goalie.

I do think Sawchuck's number should be retired no doubt. I, just like eva, have looked at Ozzie's stats as a Red Wing, and they were a lot better than I thought. He's the 2nd best goalie in Red Wings history, and holds most of the Red Wings goalie playoff records!

Yeah but you also compare relative to their peers. Sawchuk won the vezina 4 times and the calder, as well as being our number 1 during the dynasty years. He also played in a time when goalies hardly stopped the puck. He was by far the most elite goalie of his time

[Barrie]

Yeah but you also compare relative to their peers. Sawchuk won the vezina 4 times and the calder, as well as being our number 1 during the dynasty years. He also played in a time when goalies hardly stopped the puck. He was by far the most elite goalie of his time

Right, I don't want to take anything away from Sawchuk.

I think the thing with Ozzie is that he's put up excellent career numbers without any attention. At first glance it's easy to say no he isn't deserving or doesn't compare to the all time greats, but looking at his numbers, it's almost surprising seeing what Ozzie has accomplished in his career. As I said, I didn't know until last year when he was inching closer to 400 career wins, how good his career numbers are. Despite a couple shaky years recently because of age, having to deal with a divorce, and a drinking problem, the guy is as steady as they come. He has been a winner his entire career, and, again without any fan fare, has been one of the best big game goalies of the last 15 years.

[Barrie]

Check out Ozzie's playoff numbers, they're excellent!

http://www.hockey-re.../osgooch01.html

That said though, I'm not saying Ozzie should have his number retired, I just find that his career has been better than 99% of us have thought.

Edit: I put myself in that 99%.

Edited by Barrie, 12 December 2010 - 01:24 AM.

[Heaten]

Osgood is proving to be solid this year, hope Babcock plays him more.