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12/13 GDT: Kings, Lots (5) at Red Wings, None (0)


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#501 gcom007

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:03 AM

Lidstrom: "We were still encouraged after the two first periods. We had a lot of shots. I think we had over 40 shots after 2 periods. But they got a quick goal on us right away in the 3rd, and then they answered with another one in 3 minutes and that deflated us."

-Elliot


#502 Joey v3.4

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:07 AM

Yeah, I have seen a lot of articles about Babcock wanting Flip to shoot more and thinking he is going to have a breakout year. It hurt big time to let Hossa go to a division rival. Hossa has way more upside to his game then Flip does.


I wouldn't even compare the two. Hossa is a veteran forward, and a veteran top line player. Flip is at best a career second liner.

I think Flip falls below his projected talent on a lot of nights. Other nights he has the occasional flash of brilliance, but he is rarely a game breaking player.

I believe in a players "Potential", but rarely do you ever see it just pop out of no where. Players who have breakout years work up to those breakout years. I think with Flip what you see is what you get. Most nights it is enough because of all of the depth around him. I do feel like if he took just an average of two more shots per game, his scoring would double, but it's one thing to yell "Shoot the puck" from the seat of a couch, and entirely another to be on the ice. I'm certainly no pro...hell I'm not even that good at hockey, but it's a lot harder to "Shoot the puck" that anyone who's never tried it in a game understands. First off, as soon as you do shoot the puck you've effectively lost control for the next few seconds. If it goes in net, great. If it gets rebounded and your team picks it up, great. But if the other team snatches the rebound....you're skating backwards REALLY fast all of a sudden.

I think Flip tries to wait for everyone to set up in the zone, but he doesn't have the hands or the size to maintain the puck that long. Unfortunately as a center you're largely responsible for getting the puck into the offensive zone. If Flip trails the play, or if he dumps it, the outcome is usually a lot better than when he tries to walk it in on net, and ends up back passing, or getting beat off the puck.

If you're Datsyuk, you have the skill to buy the time to hold the puck while people get into position. Guys like Flip and Hudler should be playing, In My Opinion, more of a dump and chase style hockey. Driving the net over and over works, but right now we've got a whole line of guys who love to drive the net (Bert, Flip, Mule). Sometimes it works. Usually it doesn't result in much of anything other than a line change. I think if those guys dump and chased more, Mule and Berts size would come up with the puck down deep a lot more often, and Flip would be able to get a little freedom to shoot/pass. His current strategy of carrying it in while three defenders poke check him doesn't cut it very often.
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#503 zombi

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:25 AM

Quick stood on his head. What are you going to do?

I'm mean, besides the last 10-15 minutes, the Wings really took it to LA.

For a while, it was a really interesting game.

Ah well, still got a good lead in the West. :)

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#504 gcom007

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:33 AM

I wouldn't even compare the two. Hossa is a veteran forward, and a veteran top line player. Flip is at best a career second liner.

I think Flip falls below his projected talent on a lot of nights. Other nights he has the occasional flash of brilliance, but he is rarely a game breaking player.

I believe in a players "Potential", but rarely do you ever see it just pop out of no where. Players who have breakout years work up to those breakout years. I think with Flip what you see is what you get. Most nights it is enough because of all of the depth around him. I do feel like if he took just an average of two more shots per game, his scoring would double, but it's one thing to yell "Shoot the puck" from the seat of a couch, and entirely another to be on the ice. I'm certainly no pro...hell I'm not even that good at hockey, but it's a lot harder to "Shoot the puck" that anyone who's never tried it in a game understands. First off, as soon as you do shoot the puck you've effectively lost control for the next few seconds. If it goes in net, great. If it gets rebounded and your team picks it up, great. But if the other team snatches the rebound....you're skating backwards REALLY fast all of a sudden.

I think Flip tries to wait for everyone to set up in the zone, but he doesn't have the hands or the size to maintain the puck that long. Unfortunately as a center you're largely responsible for getting the puck into the offensive zone. If Flip trails the play, or if he dumps it, the outcome is usually a lot better than when he tries to walk it in on net, and ends up back passing, or getting beat off the puck.

If you're Datsyuk, you have the skill to buy the time to hold the puck while people get into position. Guys like Flip and Hudler should be playing, In My Opinion, more of a dump and chase style hockey. Driving the net over and over works, but right now we've got a whole line of guys who love to drive the net (Bert, Flip, Mule). Sometimes it works. Usually it doesn't result in much of anything other than a line change. I think if those guys dump and chased more, Mule and Berts size would come up with the puck down deep a lot more often, and Flip would be able to get a little freedom to shoot/pass. His current strategy of carrying it in while three defenders poke check him doesn't cut it very often.


I agree. Franzen is a good example of working to it. That guy worked and worked and worked. You can search for it here: I was calling a legitimate, big-time Franzen breakout way ahead of when it actually happened. Why? He was a guy who did a lot of things right who worked his ass off. He had the skill set. I think some of those injuries really got to his head (no pun intended) and slowed down development but if you watched the guy over the years, I think you could see he was really building to something big.

I don't see that with Flip at all. As you said and as I've said again and again, what you see seems to be what you get. He hasn't changed much from the start. I've said all along he's a 40-50 point peak player at best offensively. Not bad, but not at all close to the 70-80 some have suggested he's capable of.

Datsyuk is on another level. That guy will be doing things that look "wrong" until 5 seconds later he's "magically" in the right place at the perfect time. You don't get at all just how good he is unless you're at the game. The TV cameras don't pick up how this guy exists in the flow of the entire play. He's got that sixth sense almost like Gretzky where he's just so many steps ahead of everybody else.

In contrast to that, I don't think Flip gets his own game let alone anyone elses enough to be a great offensive player. He works hard in a sense in that he hustles, but sometimes you're over-hustling because you don't know where you really need to be. That's Flip.

To me, it's really more of a shame that they won't just let him be the player he really is. I don't think the pressure is good for him or the team. If we need more scoring, we should (or should've...) traded him for someone with a more well-rounded offensive skill set. If not, let Flip be who he is and stop trying to force him into a role that doesn't suit his skill set. It's a disservice to him and the team.

It's like this...

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BAD IDEA!!!

-Elliot


#505 brett

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:42 AM

seriously when was the last game the wings played good? Devils? No, outshot and outplayed most of the game ozzie saved us. Habs? No habs controlled play 5 on 5, PP time saved us. 3 losses before that. wings just have to play better as a team. the 2nd line needs to do something and howard needs to make somef****** saves. start ozzie next game, huds or cleary to the 2nd line bert or franzen to the 3rd line. change is needed

#506 wings_fanatic

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:05 AM

Hate to break it to you lol but the Wings did play good today... 51 shots and most of which were quality shots.... Quick had 8 REAL GOOD saves that I though would usually go in. The team could not bury one tonight, but it isn't as if they played bad. Sure, once Howard let in the 3rd goal right away it kind of took the sails out of the Wings, but up until they they were playing one of hteir better games this year. That is my point from earlier... to win you need a goalie who can make timely saves, and lately that has not been Howard which is why Ozzie should start next game. If the game stayed 2-0, the outcome may have been different but that 3rd goal took the sail out of the Wings

#507 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:07 AM

I don't buy the potential. He's never shown himself to be even close to consistent at any point in time in his career. He's been a streaky player from day 1. Flashes of brilliance don't demonstrate potential to me. They're all pros. They're all capable of making good plays, but to be able to do so consistently is the key, and again, Flips never come close to showing he can do that. He doesn't have a great shot and he just doesn't have those legitimate goal scoring skills. They would've done better signing him for less money and trying to develop him into a Draper with skill. Signing him based on a "best-case" evaluation of his potential was a rare misstep by Holland. And to this day, pushing a heavy offensive role on him continues to be a mistake.

I mean, how many times has this damn article been written since Flips second season???

Read more: Mike Babcock wants Valtteri Filppula to shoot more as Red Wings host Kings | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com...s#ixzz183bXRMjz

I've been scratching my head on this guy from the start. I started pulling my hair out when he signed for 5 years. Now, I'm just apathetic. I don't get how so few people can see that we keep saying the same thing about him now again and again. Like...this is his 4th breakout year now...???...shoot the puck more...again...???...it's like Groundhogs Day with this guy.

I really do think he's a descent NHL player and if he focused on his strengths, I think he's got Selke-level defensive skills. But the guy just doesn't have what it takes to put up big points let alone goals. People need to get over it, including Red Wings management.

I just wish they would've done so before they let Hossa go to Chicago...

(I'm still so, so bitter about that.)


You don't like Filppula, we get it. Stop blatantly disregarding what he has done and what he shows he is capable of. He isn't the only player on his line, you know. It's not like Franzen and Bert have been amazing and he's dragging them down. Flip is the only player noticeable on his line, Franzen and Bert do s***.

That said, he has had a pretty disappointing year so far, but again, I think you can attribute that to the play of the players on his line. Franzen can't do s*** right now and Bert just pretty much rides along with who he happens to be playing with, he isn't a bonafide second liner.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 14 December 2010 - 01:09 AM.

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#508 Zonly1

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:07 AM

seriously when was the last game the wings played good? Devils? No, outshot and outplayed most of the game ozzie saved us. Habs? No habs controlled play 5 on 5, PP time saved us. 3 losses before that. wings just have to play better as a team. the 2nd line needs to do something and howard needs to make somef****** saves. start ozzie next game, huds or cleary to the 2nd line bert or franzen to the 3rd line. change is needed

There it is! 100% agree with this. They haven't been playing that great lately. The Devils game wasn't a good win. We just got to see why the Penguins and Flyers have a bunch of wins is because they play in a crap division with the two worst teams in the league.

#509 clutchngrab

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:10 AM

We can just agree that Quick was the main man tonight. And the Wings didn't have a great effort ALL AROUND. Teams make adjustments when they can't score. I'm not sure if they made adjustments or if Quick is just a super computer programmed to stop anything that comes his way.


They had a number of quality chances that they did not bury. In the case of Quick they needed to elevate the puck and shoot at corners. They didn't do that.
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#510 GoWings1905

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:16 AM

You don't like Filppula, we get it. Stop blatantly disregarding what he has done and what he shows he is capable of. He isn't the only player on his line, you know. It's not like Franzen and Bert have been amazing and he's dragging them down. Flip is the only player noticeable on his line, Franzen and Bert do s***.

That said, he has had a pretty disappointing year so far, but again, I think you can attribute that to the play of the players on his line. Franzen can't do s*** right now and Bert just pretty much rides along with who he happens to be playing with, he isn't a bonafide second liner.


Second line centers make their wingers better. Before we heard Fil couldn't put up points playing with third liners and no powerplay time. I haven't even noticed Filppula in about the past five games beyond making a few too many passes. Franzen and Bertuzzi haven't been overly impressive lately either, but I still notice Franzen generating way more offensively than Filppula.

I'd take Hossa back over Filppula and Hudler every day of the week.
 
 
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#511 clutchngrab

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:17 AM

I wouldn't even compare the two. Hossa is a veteran forward, and a veteran top line player. Flip is at best a career second liner.

I think Flip falls below his projected talent on a lot of nights. Other nights he has the occasional flash of brilliance, but he is rarely a game breaking player.

I believe in a players "Potential", but rarely do you ever see it just pop out of no where. Players who have breakout years work up to those breakout years. I think with Flip what you see is what you get. Most nights it is enough because of all of the depth around him. I do feel like if he took just an average of two more shots per game, his scoring would double, but it's one thing to yell "Shoot the puck" from the seat of a couch, and entirely another to be on the ice. I'm certainly no pro...hell I'm not even that good at hockey, but it's a lot harder to "Shoot the puck" that anyone who's never tried it in a game understands. First off, as soon as you do shoot the puck you've effectively lost control for the next few seconds. If it goes in net, great. If it gets rebounded and your team picks it up, great. But if the other team snatches the rebound....you're skating backwards REALLY fast all of a sudden.

I think Flip tries to wait for everyone to set up in the zone, but he doesn't have the hands or the size to maintain the puck that long. Unfortunately as a center you're largely responsible for getting the puck into the offensive zone. If Flip trails the play, or if he dumps it, the outcome is usually a lot better than when he tries to walk it in on net, and ends up back passing, or getting beat off the puck.

If you're Datsyuk, you have the skill to buy the time to hold the puck while people get into position. Guys like Flip and Hudler should be playing, In My Opinion, more of a dump and chase style hockey. Driving the net over and over works, but right now we've got a whole line of guys who love to drive the net (Bert, Flip, Mule). Sometimes it works. Usually it doesn't result in much of anything other than a line change. I think if those guys dump and chased more, Mule and Berts size would come up with the puck down deep a lot more often, and Flip would be able to get a little freedom to shoot/pass. His current strategy of carrying it in while three defenders poke check him doesn't cut it very often.


Actually a well thought out and objective post. You must be new here.
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#512 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:23 AM

Second line centers make their wingers better. Before we heard Fil couldn't put up points playing with third liners and no powerplay time. I haven't even noticed Filppula in about the past five games beyond making a few too many passes. Franzen and Bertuzzi haven't been overly impressive lately either, but I still notice Franzen generating way more offensively than Filppula.

I'd take Hossa back over Filppula and Hudler every day of the week.


If you trade Filppula then who centers the second line? Do you split up the twins just to fit your own desires?

What it really came down to in 2009 was Franzen or Hossa, and I would have chosen Hossa every day of the week.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#513 clutchngrab

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:25 AM

I am hoping that this ass kicking is a wake up call. I would like to see the Wings play with more passion. Would like to see the 2nd line get their s*** together. I would like to see Hudler banned from the Wings organization :angry:

And my reasoning for hating on Frazen is because he got a sweet long term contract and it's not looking good. It looks like he's happy he got paid and is just relaxing now.


Well, he has contributed to date, but I think he is playing below his potential. He's playing pretty soft and not physical enough. Put him with Bert, who won't use his body either and Flip, who won't shoot and you don't get enough out of them besides some nice puck movement that doesn't amount to s***.
Are you kidding? Block you? And miss watching you stumble around the forum looking for an argument like a dog sniffing butts? It would be like turning off a bad episode of Jerry Springer. You know you shouldn't be watching, but you just... can't... help... it...

#514 Joey v3.4

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:42 AM

Actually a well thought out and objective post. You must be new here.


Nah, been here for years. I just change my name from time to time.

I'm objective and tactful because, unlike when I normally visit here, I'm not completely hammered this time :)
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#515 GoWings1905

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:07 AM

If you trade Filppula then who centers the second line? Do you split up the twins just to fit your own desires?

What it really came down to in 2009 was Franzen or Hossa, and I would have chosen Hossa every day of the week.


To the first part: Yes, the Euro Twins have more than proven to be fine split up and ultimately I think Babcock may go that route again come playoff time depending on matchups and production/lack thereof from Filppula. It's not just my own desires - if Filppula continues to not be capable of producing offensively as a second line center, then the Red Wings need to have Pavel and Hank centering their own line. The Euro Twins are back together because the organization believed Filppula could handle a larger offensive role allowing the luxury of stacking the top line again. Mike Modano signing as the third line center made that even more possible. At this rate, however, I am of the belief Hank and Pavel will still end up on different lines come playoff time.

To the second part: I couldn't agree more.
 
 
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#516 Lonewuhf

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:27 AM

You guys are funny. Did you all conveniently forget about the first part of the season when the 2nd line literally carried the team? The first line played like crap in the beginning, now they've gotten their game going. The 2nd line isn't doing worse now than the 1st line did at the beginning of the season, yet you all just said "it's only the beginning of the season, they'll get better!!!111!". Open your eyes, lines play better and worse as the season progresses. The 2nd line is in a slump right now. Deal with it, they'll get better again. The first line will drop in production for a few games, it's going to happen. It does every single year, yet the majority of the people posting here can so easily forget the entire rest of the season and isolate 5 games out and say how everyone on x line needs to be traded because they suck. How about you try to make valid points and take the ENTIRE season into consideration besides just a few bad games??

Edited by Lonewuhf, 14 December 2010 - 03:28 AM.


#517 titanium2

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 04:28 AM

So after a November in which they went 10-2-1 I think, the Wings are off to a 3-3-1 December. Yikes. Is it the snow you think? The rest of the month is filled with solid opponents. It should be quite the challenge. Hopefully they respond.

#518 Stolberg

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:35 AM

:siren: WINGS WONT MAKE THE PLAYFOS WITH BERUTZZI ON THE TEAM :siren:



#519 sputman

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 06:45 AM

At least it isn't OMG TRADE EVERYONE like some GDT's last season.


OMG, i just thought of what will fix everything..
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#520 mindfly

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:59 AM

Give me a break "it was just one of those games" Wings have sucked for all of december, and have very bad habits, they dont practice a lot because of the schedule and traveling, not much time to fix what is needed, it's af****** mess.

I won't be watching games live from now on, they are starting at 1:30am and finished at around 04:00am, ruin your day completely you're like a zombie, it's worth it if wings' play like they CAN and SHOULD... but they continue to let us down with abysmal performances like this.





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