Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

[Outsider 42]

I don't understand what Babcock is doing. I've always supported him, but his handling of the goalie situation last year and this year is just mind boggling. Howard is not playing well. Whether or not you blame him for losses, it's just a fact. Ozzie, on the flip side, is playing very, very well. Why NOT give him a chance? Howard, for the moment, has played himself OUT of a starting position, yet Babcock refuses to go to Ozzie who we know is capable of carrying the load if need be. It's almost like he forgets we have a 400-win goalie as our backup.

I understand he doesn't want to shake Howard's confidence, but that boat sailed a while ago. Howard has gotten into terrible habits and needs to retool his game (namely, not dropping to the ice every time the opponent comes into the zone), which he can't do if he's starting every game.

If I were Ozzie I'd be even more pissed than last year. Last year Ozzie deserved to not play, and he didn't. This year he deserves to play, and he's not.

Wake up Babcock!

It's pretty simple, VM:

If Babcock turns to Osgood now, odds are Ozzie is so fired up and hungry for the #1 spot, that he TAKES it. And never looks back.

What does that mean for Mike Babcock?

It means he was WRONG about the goaltending. It means that he was WRONG to stick with Howard as the Wings were driven to 7 Games against an inferior opponent, and bounced in 5 Games against a choke Team which was swept in the next Round.

It means that he made the WRONG decision to declare Howard the Starter to open this Season, without a hint of competition for the spot.

For those who state that "Howard is the Starter. You have to stick with your Starter."

Says WHO? What justifies keeping Howard as the Starter, when his "back-up" is outplaying him. Wasn't Osgood the Starter just LAST SEASON....until HIS "back-up" started outplaying HIM. Then a NEW Starter was named, based on merit.

When Legace was the Starter in 2005-2006, and Osgood was the back-up, it was: "Manny's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."

When Dom was the Starter from 2006-2008, and Osgood was the back-up, it was: "Dom's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."

When Ozzie was the Starter in 2007-2008, and Conklin was the back-up, it was: "Whoever plays better, plays."

When Ozzie was the Starter in 2008-2009, and Howard was the back-up, it was: "We're going with the hot hand."

Now that Howard is the Starter, and Osgood is once again the back-up, it's back to: "Howard's the Starter. He's our guy, and we're gonna ride him."

Anyone who fails to see the ridiculous double standard here is out of their minds.

It's quite simple. Babcock will NOT allow Osgood a shot, not even a shot, to re-take the Starting role. He'll keep throwing Howard out there, for loss after loss, regardless of HOW he's playing, until the TEAM pulls it together, and Howard starts Winning again.

THEN he can say: "See. It was just a slump. All is well now." Right up until the Wings are bounced out of the Post Season early, again.

He did the same thing in January/February last Season when Howard went 8-5-6, and was giving up 3+ goals per Game consistently. He just kept throwing him out there, Game after Game, after Game.

[Outsider 42]

And really, what's the worst that would happen if Osgood did get going and take over heading into the playoffs? His last two playoff runs worked out pretty well for everyone...

Simple, gcom:

It would prove that Babcock was wrong.

Wrong to name Howard the Starter last Season. Wrong to bench Osgood for the entire second half of last Season. Wrong to stick with a struggling Howard in the Play Offs when he had Osgood on the bench. Wrong to name Howard the Starter this Season.

And Babcock will not allow himself to be proven wrong. Period.

We saw that first hand when the stubbornly refused to listen to the wisdom of Steve Yzerman, Nick Lidstrom, Ken Holland, and SCOTTY BOWMAN, as they ALL went to him in 2005-2006, and told him that it was a BAD idea to go with Legace in the Play Offs, and he should start getting Osgood prepared.

He refused. He wanted everyone to know that this was his Team. It was his decision.

He paid for it against Edmonton in 2006.

He paid for it last Post Season.

He'll pay for it again. Watch and see.

The man will NOT admit when he's wrong, and he refuses to learn from his mistakes.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Obviously Howard was going to be the starter coming into the season, when a goalie goes 32-5-3 or whatever it was its a no doubter. Osgood should be getting starts I agree, but maybe Babcock is probably looking at Edmonton as struggling (which they are, and have alot of injuries) and given Howards confidence is low right now what a better chance to get it up especially since the last couple games alot of the goals weren't his fault (goals we put into our own net). Calgary is playing good right now, so why not let the goalie thats playing better right now start in that game which is Osgood. This is the way I think Babcock is thinking about the upcoming schedule, I would rather Ozzy start against Van though, thats going to be a hard game for Detroit.

[kook_10 1,705]

Why is McCrimmon getting a pass this season?

[Hiei 192]

Howard = 2nd season = Sophomore slump.

This isn't LGW without the ever constant goalie debate and argument. Home sweet Home.

[Outsider 42]

Howard = 2nd season = Sophomore slump.

Fine. If that's what it is, fine.

Then WHY keep him in there, Game after Game, and allow him to keep struggling, when you have a 400 Career Game Winner outplaying him when he's NOT stapled to the bench?

What happened to Babcock's mantra of: "It's about Winning. It's about who's playing better. It's not about personal accomplishments."?

Or is this no longer the NHL, where the goal is to WIN?

Are these no longer the Detroit Red Wings, whose goal is to contend for the Cup. Every year?

Is it now the Jimmy Howard Developmental League, where the goal is to "season" James Howard, and get him experience?

Ken Holland has ALWAYS held the opinion that he wants his Players, ALL of them, "over-ready" before they take on major roles with the Red Wings. What Babcock is doing flies in the face of that philosophy.

This should NOT be about Jimmy Howard, no matter how promising he appears to be. Because the fact of the matter is that there are MANY "promising" rookies and young Players who just never. pan. out.

Babcock is trying to force the issue. It's going to backfire. Detroit is NOT the place to "test" a rookie goaltender.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Outsider

[LidsFan 68]

They need to give Ozzie a chance to play. He is full of confidence and should be allowed to show what he can do for the team. I really really want Eaves back in the line up, so hopefully he will be good to go on Tuesday.

[titanium2 867]

Babcock just doesn't trust Ozzie? And why is that?

[Buppy 1,720]

I'd like to see a straight rotation too, though I wouldn't say Howard is really having a sophomore slump, nor would I say Ozzie is outplaying him by much. I think they're doing pretty similar.

I do think Howie needs some extra work with the goalie coaches. He seems to be dropping way too low when he goes down. Doesn't seem as tall on his knees as he did last year. Maybe just a technique problem, or maybe he's lost some flexibility. Either way, if he could just stay a little more vertical, most of the deflections that have been going in would start hitting him. His left shoulder has been especially brutal. He also seems to over-commit some times.

[nate94gt 134]

I just realized I botched the thread title. Left out the word in and forgot a comma

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Howard = 2nd season = Sophomore slump.

This isn't LGW without the ever constant goalie debate and argument. Home sweet Home.

These are the Red Wings, not Columbus with Steve Mason. If Howard is indeed only just slumping, then why not utilize a goalie with 400 wins and one that has proven recently the ability to give the team a chance to win? Ozzie looks as sharp as he has since the conclusion of the 2009 playoffs. With no Datsyuk and Cleary for an extended period, we need a goalie especially right now that is playing with confidence and can keep the team in a game.

Jimmy Howard has had more than enough chances lately and hasn't been able to do that. No one here is saying everything is Jimmy's fault, but when things aren't going well, why not go with the guy who has won a couple games in his career? The worse thing that could happen is he plays as poorly as Howard and then the Red Wings are just back where they started. If Chris Osgood had a stretch like Jimmy Howard lately, he would be on the bench for months. All I want is a little consistency in Babcock's approach to the goaltenders. If Ozzie is playing well, then he deserves to get some more starts. All this crap about breaking Howard's confidence is quite frankly bulls***. Sit on the bench, work harder in practice and come back stronger. Chris Osgood had to do it even more than he deserved.

Babcock is hurting the team right now by going back to Howard every game. Goalies aren't starters in this league just by title. He's had plenty of chances to get back on track and hasn't done so. It's beyond time to let Ozzie prove he can get the Red Wings wins. Until that happens, I'm sticking to my belief that Babcock has a double standard and continues to prove himself inept at handling goaltenders.

Edited January 4, 2011 by GoWings1905

[Outsider 42]

Also, for those saying that the Wings are not playing well....that they look uninspired....like they don't want to work for the full 60 minutes.

Yeah. You're all right.

Now consider the reports that nearly the whole Team, led by "Mr. Silent Leader" himself, Nick Lidstrom, went to Babcock and basically forced his hand by calling him out, telling him to "do the right thing" and let Osgood go for #400 at Home, in front of his friends, his family, and the Fans....

You don't think the guys in that room, many of whom have played the major portion of their careers with Osgood, and Won Cups in front of him, don't see what's going on? Don't see the double standard? Don't recognize how ridiculous it is to sit Osgood in favor of a struggling goalie, just to prove a point?

You think THEY aren't wondering what has to happen to get the struggling goalie OUT, and get the guy who's playing better IN? You think THEY aren't wondering WHY Babcock simply refuses to play Osgood? No matter what?

I mentioned it last Season, and was slammed for it.

They don't HAVE TO wonder. They know. And they are NOT happy about it, by all reports.

[Xitium 272]

Howards last 11 games:

5-5-1, 3.26 gaa .887 sv.

[Jenny 315]

I would really like to see Ozzie and Howard getting a more equal number of starts and competing for the number one spot. They're buddies, they can take it. It really doesn't make much sense to me to keep pushing and pushing Howard.

[eva unit zero 271]

Howards last 11 games:

5-5-1, 3.26 gaa .887 sv.

Osgood over that span:

2-1-1, 2.71 gaa, .917 sv%

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

Howard has been badly outplayed by Osgood for a month and a half. This what you don't understand.

Howard automatically gets the next start after a bad game to 'sort it out' if you will. The problem is that he has been having a ton of bad games. Osgood, on the other hand, has been playing great and after each great game he gets exiled to the end of the bench for another week or two.

Howard has done nothing to earn his starts this season; Osgood has done plenty. Osgood should be starting half or more of the games from here on out until Howard proves otherwise.

Osgood has played 3 games if that in the last month in a half. The two really arnt comparable. I will agree in the limited action Osgood has had, he has looked good.

[Guest Heaten]

I know, it's like he treats a starter different than a back up.

Howard should have lost his "starter position" a while back. That's the problem I have with Babcock. Osgood has earned the starter position imho. Start the better goalie and win. Pretty simple, really.

[dragonballgtz 273]

Osgood over that span:

2-1-1, 2.71 gaa, .917 sv%

And he still lets in weak goals. For having a better save percentage his GAA is just as bad because he lets in bad goals along with s***ty team defensive play.

But what the coach should really worry about is the teams past month of half assed hockey.

Edited January 4, 2011 by dragonballgtz

[Booster313 138]

Wow people crack me up... Babcock haters, it's really easy to look back and say he shoulda, woulda, coulda. Hindsight is 20/20. The way you people talk it's like we don't have the most successful sports team over the last 15 years, let alone hockey team. You make it sound like had Babcock only listened to you we'd have 3 more cups. Get over yourselves. When are you going to sit back and realize that although not without mistake, these guys know what they are doing and they are right far more often than they are wrong. It you could do it better you'd be coaching. It's one thing to disagree but your personally attacking Babcock.

[eva unit zero 271]

And he still lets in weak goals. For having a better save percentage his GAA is just as bad because he lets in bad goals along with s***ty team defensive play.

But what the coach should really worry about is the teams past month of half assed hockey.

Regardless of whether you think Osgood lets in weak goals or not, the stats don't lie. Osgood is superior to Howard in every way over the past month. If one goalie has a tendency to let in weak goals, but only averages 2 total goals against and wins more than he loses, that's better than a goalie who doesn't let in weak goals but who averages 3 goals against with a losing record.

Hate who you want, but at least recognize statistical fact.

[Outsider 42]

Osgood over that span:

2-1-1, 2.71 gaa, .917 sv%

For those of you still stating "Howard is the Starter, he's "earned" the Starting position", and that we have to "stick with him" as he works his way through this slump?

Yeah...

More fun with numbers: In the 12 Games Ozzie played before he "lost" the starting job due to is "poor play", (when he went down with the flu/groin strain):

6-3-2 (1 no decision, as he was pulled 7 minutes into the Vancouver Game, after allowing 2 goals on 4 shots, Howard mopped up as the Wings won 5-4)

2.77 gaa, .902 sv%

Howard's stats in that same period:

1-2-1 (1 no decision, as he came in in relief in Buffalo, and Osgood took the L)

3.44 gaa, .879 sv%

Rather eye opening, I think.

So, if Osgood LOST the Starting job based on a 6-3-2 record, with a 2.77 gaa and .902 sv% over a twelve game span....

Then how is it that Howard hasn't LOST the Starting job based on his 5-5-1 record, with a 3.26 gaa and .887 sv% over an eleven game span?

Riddle me THAT, "Howard is the Starter" people.

[Outsider 42]

And he still lets in weak goals. For having a better save percentage his GAA is just as bad because he lets in bad goals along with s***ty team defensive play.

But what the coach should really worry about is the teams past month of half assed hockey.

Osgood has let in one "weak" goal. That's it. If you want to count them up, Howard has let in far more questionable goals than Osgood lately. He's also been making a habit of letting them in in the opening minute of the period, in the closing minute of the period, and/or shortly after the Wings score.

[dragonballgtz 273]

Regardless of whether you think Osgood lets in weak goals or not, the stats don't lie. Osgood is superior to Howard in every way over the past month. If one goalie has a tendency to let in weak goals, but only averages 2 total goals against and wins more than he loses, that's better than a goalie who doesn't let in weak goals but who averages 3 goals against with a losing record.

Hate who you want, but at least recognize statistical fact.

Weak goals cost him is 400th in Detroit, along in STL and almost cost him in COL. I didn't say I hated Osgood I'm just stating the truth.

Again the bigger issue is team defense and lack of effort in play. With better defense both goalies would be doing better.

[Outsider 42]

Weak goals cost him is 400th in Detroit, along in STL and almost cost him in COL. I didn't say I hated Osgood I'm just stating the truth.

Again the bigger issue is team defense and lack of effort in play. With better defense both goalies would be doing better.

Ever wonder why such a good Team plays so poorly, at times.

They just look "disinterested", don't they? Like they can't be bothered to show up?

Almost like they're....

....tuned out.

[dragonballgtz 273]

Ever wonder why such a good Team plays so poorly, at times.

They just look "disinterested", don't they? Like they can't be bothered to show up?

Almost like they're....

....tuned out.

Yeah do do wonder why Detroit cannot play a full 60 minute game.