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Cevari

Norris turning into "best offensive defenseman"?

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We keep mentioning this but things change slowly but progressively. I mean, look at the Selke trophy. Last year Datsyuk had takeaways and perhaps the "hard minutes argument" but didn't have any significant PK time. I really don't know if he deserved it or not I'm just saying that the standards are changing.

EDIT: "The hard minutes argument" -- http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/5/3/1455867/the-best-forwards-in-the-nhl-tough

Over the years it's become more and more about the stat sheet.

Selke is about the best two way forward who puts up a lot of points. Norris is becoming more and more about a d-man scoring a lot of points. It's gotten ridiculous. It's one thing for people on forums, but don't sportswriters actually watch games anymore?

Fugly is having a great year and putting up a ton of points, but he's not even the #1 D man on his team and he doesn't spend any time on the PK. Green wasn't deserving of a Norris either, but he was definitely more qualified than Fugly is, considering the award is supposed to be for best all around defenseman.

What puts Buff over Green is that his contribution is so much more important to ATL than Green's was to the Caps. And I think that's what they are looking at with Buff.

I myself has stated that he would win the Norris if he continues to play like this and I am not surprised by this NHL article.

I don't disagree that his relative value to the team is probably a factor in him getting all this attention, but it shouldn't matter. This is the Norris, not the Hart.

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- Pet peave of mine (mentioning since I saw it in this thread about 10 times) - players do not get nominated for the awards, the voters (which are not necessarily the same group of people for each award) simply vote for who they think should win (they normally vote their 1st through 5th place). The thought that a top scoring defenseman would get "nominated" simply because of pts, but probably not win is not true. The 3 guys you see up for the awards are simply those that finished top 3 in voting. No one gives the voters a pool of players to vote from, they vote for whoever they want.

- the league really has no influence over who wins the awards, so saying that the NHL only cares about this or that doesn't make sense and a list compiled by the NHL really doesn't matter when it comes to who will actually win.

- a comment was made about how the top 3 vote getters for the all star game where penguins. Again, the NHL has nothing to do with this. I agree, having Fleury there is stupid, but what are you going do, who cares. Obviously Crosby makes sense and Letang being the top vote getter for defensemen is not unreasonable, he is in the top 4 in scoring (those 4 having pretty similar pt. totals) and he blows everyone else out of the water with +/-. Do I think he's better than Lidstrom? No, but based on those stats, pretty understandable why he'd have a lot of votes.

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- Pet peave of mine (mentioning since I saw it in this thread about 10 times) - players do not get nominated for the awards, the voters (which are not necessarily the same group of people for each award) simply vote for who they think should win (they normally vote their 1st through 5th place). The thought that a top scoring defenseman would get "nominated" simply because of pts, but probably not win is not true. The 3 guys you see up for the awards are simply those that finished top 3 in voting. No one gives the voters a pool of players to vote from, they vote for whoever they want.

- the league really has no influence over who wins the awards, so saying that the NHL only cares about this or that doesn't make sense and a list compiled by the NHL really doesn't matter when it comes to who will actually win.

- a comment was made about how the top 3 vote getters for the all star game where penguins. Again, the NHL has nothing to do with this. I agree, having Fleury there is stupid, but what are you going do, who cares. Obviously Crosby makes sense and Letang being the top vote getter for defensemen is not unreasonable, he is in the top 4 in scoring (those 4 having pretty similar pt. totals) and he blows everyone else out of the water with +/-. Do I think he's better than Lidstrom? No, but based on those stats, pretty understandable why he'd have a lot of votes.

Perfectly stated. excellent post!

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I don't disagree that his relative value to the team is probably a factor in him getting all this attention, but it shouldn't matter. This is the Norris, not the Hart.

What? That makes no sense.

Now for my tinfoil hat reasons why I think he will win:

If Crosby gets back in time the Hart is his so Buff gets the Norris.

First black to win it (at least I think). Yep, race card I went there... it's a great story to be had.

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Ask 20 of the top offensive forwards in the league if they could choose who the would want to have defending against them (from the top 3 "nominated" norris defensemen) as they skated in on a 1:1 or 2:1 or even a 3:1 odd man rush in a pivotal moment of any game and Lidstrom would be the most feared out of that bunch by a landslide. This is the only way Buff could win a contest against Lidstrom. (Hot dog eating contests excluded).

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- Pet peave of mine (mentioning since I saw it in this thread about 10 times) - players do not get nominated for the awards, the voters (which are not necessarily the same group of people for each award) simply vote for who they think should win (they normally vote their 1st through 5th place). The thought that a top scoring defenseman would get "nominated" simply because of pts, but probably not win is not true. The 3 guys you see up for the awards are simply those that finished top 3 in voting. No one gives the voters a pool of players to vote from, they vote for whoever they want.

...

And yet almost everyone refers to those top 3 as nominees and/or finalists. Both terms may be misnomers, but we all know that they refer to the top 3 for a particular award. Sorry, nitpicking is a pet peeve of mine...

Now on to my real point...

Two years ago Green had 31g, 73p in just 68 games, +24, and played just under 2.5 minutes/game on the PK. He didn't win, Buffy won't either.

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]As stated earlier, since Orr offense has been hugely more important for the Norris. [/b]

Buffy won't win because Enstrom plays more in all situations, scores just as much, and is so much better defensively it's ridiculous.

So is that the reason why Scott Stevens never won the Norris?

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What? That makes no sense.

Now for my tinfoil hat reasons why I think he will win:

If Crosby gets back in time the Hart is his so Buff gets the Norris.

First black to win it (at least I think). Yep, race card I went there... it's a great story to be had.

Which part didn't you understand?

Whether he's on a talent-laden team or the only star on a team of scrubs shouldn't matter.

Obviously any defenseman who legitimately warrants consideration for the Norris will be valuable to the team. But relative value to their team shouldn't have anything to do with deciding who deserves the Norris.

Who cares how valuable Fugly is to Atlanta? Has he demonstrated through the course of the season the best all around ability as a defenseman? Because that's what the award is actually is for.

And even more than Mike Green, it's glaringly obvious he has not. Yes he's had a great offensive season, but he is not in the Paul Coffey level of offensive production that would overshadow his defensive deficiencies.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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Offensive numbers having an effect on who wins Defensive awards is nothing new. Remember when Draper won the Selke Trophy in 2003-04? He scored 24 goals, and was on pace for 30 if he didn't get injured.

It happens in MLB too with their Gold Gloves.

Edited by Barrie

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Scott Stevens was always among the league's top defensemen, but never was the league's best in a given season.

Kind of like the Brad Park of his era.

Yet in both seasons where he scored 70+ points, he finished a second to Borque, who was one of few defensemen to outscore Stevens those seasons...

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Offensive numbers having an effect on who wins Defensive awards is nothing new. Remember when Draper won the Selke Trophy in 2003-04? He scored 24 goals, and was on pace for 30 if he didn't get injured.

And he won the Selke despite not even being the best defensive forward on his line.

It happens in MLB too with their Gold Gloves.

True; if Brandon Inge were a career .275 he'd have 2 or 3 Gold Gloves.

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Yet in both seasons where he scored 70+ points, he finished a second to Borque, who was one of few defensemen to outscore Stevens those seasons...

And Bourque was one of the league's top defensive defensemen. The gap between Stevens' defense and Bourque's defense was far smaller than the gap ever was between their offense. This is why Bourque, not Stevens, was named a post-season All-Star in each of his first seventeen seasons in the league, and a total 19 of 22 seasons.

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