Top Rated Defensive Defensemen

[toby91_ca 620]

Has anyone ever seen this report before? Apparently it's done every year, but this is the first I've seen of it. It is put together statistically, which is probably somewhat flawed because it's hard to argue who is the best defensively based on stats.

Anyway, I looked at last year's list and the list for top defensive forwards as well. These lists don't seem to correlate at all to who the voters end up voting for at the end of the year. Of course, when it comes to Norris, you have to consider all around play, but for Selke, you'd think defense should be all that matters (which of course we all know that's not true).

Lidstrom 30th?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/the-nhls-top-defensive-defencemen-at-midseason/article1867013/

[kook_10 1,705]

"not perfect criteria" says it all.

They came up with a new way to crunch the numbers an dget people talking. Defense is so subjective you could come up with a million different criteria and get different answers for all of them. Goals against is just the low hanging fruit. Stuff like strength of partner and quality of matchup is nearly impossible to calculate but has a big part in a D man's play. That's just for starters.

Edited January 13, 2011 by kook_10

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Lidstrom's qualcomp is the highest of any defenseman on that list yet is 30th.

Joke of a list.

[edicius 3,269]

Brooks Orpik? Brooks Orpik?!

[Konnan511 1,736]

It's not that puzzling really. Lidstrom has the lowest +/- of all our DMen that play on a regular basis. He's out there for a lot of goals for even strength, but he is also out there an equal amount goals against. His defense has slipped, but his offense has stayed awesome.

sidenote: when i say defense has slipped, it still means he's top notch defensively, but they are some players that play better defense.

[TheOwl 77]

Lidstrom's plus minus I don't think reflects his poorer defensive play, it seems like it's his line-mates on the ice who make the mistakes. I haven't seen a goal this season where you could say "Lidstrom's fault".

[Konnan511 1,736]

Lidstrom's qualcomp is the highest of any defenseman on that list yet is 30th.

Joke of a list.

And his even strength goals against is the highest. Plus top ten in highest SHGA/60.

The only reasons these numbers are skewed, though, is because how unreliable our goaltending situation has been this season.

The other thing is players on teams with either really good or really poor goaltending will have their numbers affected by that.

[kook_10 1,705]

Does it really mean a defenseman is good when the puck is at the other end of the ice all the time? A low even strength goals against doesn't wholly come from excellent play on defense by any stretch. Brooks Orpik doesn't have to play as much D when he is backing Crosby's line vs when he is behind Letestu or Talbot. It comes back to +/- being a very iffy metric.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Agreed, plus/minus is always an iffy stat when you are talking about someone in a negative way

Joking aside, it is useful when comparing line-mates and teammates. Stuart is a +7 and Lidstrom is an even +/-.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Everyone says that plus/minus is a skewed and overrated statistic, yet the same people rave every year about Lidstrom's high plus/minus totals.

Let's be objective a little folks. You can't have that stat both ways.

Edited January 13, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[dat's sick 1,002]

EDIT: whoops, I see they linked last year's list and Lids was 5th. Might have been the year before he was 1st, or I'm just making things up.

Fact is Lidstrom is out there on more goals against this year than he was last year. Now whether you put that down to him being worse (I don't) or something else (playing with Stuart, worse goaltending, not always being out there with Z or Pav etc.), statistically he's not having a great defensive year so far. But the Wings are allowing too many goals period, so I think it's more than just Lidstrom getting old.

Edited January 13, 2011 by dat's sick

[kook_10 1,705]

Agreed, plus/minus is always an iffy stat when you are talking about someone in a negative way

Joking aside, it is useful when comparing line-mates and teammates. Stuart is a +7 and Lidstrom is an even +/-.

Yes and no - this year Lids has been paired up with a bunch of different guys, all of whom needed a little pick up in their defensive game. First it was Ericsson (nuff said), then Stewie who was making gaffes left and right, and now Kron who likes to pinch and step up in the neutral zone too. I think he hung him out to dry twice last game. Even Raffy has been mediocre defensively this year. They all take advantage of Lids stability to either roam, pinch, join the rush, or just be stupid (as in Ericsson's case). Of course this is all subjective and takes away from the ability to make a numerical case for him, but that is kind of my point. Lids is still not only the centerpiece of the Wings D, he is also still the workhorse and the ballast for what is otherwise a sometimes unsteady group.

Off the top of my head (granted there's not a lot up there), I can't think of any other top tier D man who pairs up with so many partners.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Everyone says that plus/minus is a skewed and overrated statistic, yet the same people rave every year about Lidstrom's high plus/minus totals.

Let's be objective a little folks. You can't have that stat both ways.

The difference is Wings fans don't use Lidstrom's +/- by itself to rave about his defensive play.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

It's not that puzzling really. Lidstrom has the lowest +/- of all our DMen that play on a regular basis. He's out there for a lot of goals for even strength, but he is also out there an equal amount goals against. His defense has slipped, but his offense has stayed awesome.

sidenote: when i say defense has slipped, it still means he's top notch defensively, but they are some players that play better defense.

...which is why Brad Stuart is so valuable. Lids/Stuart is huge and the Wings goals against has gone up what...a GAG since Kockstopolous broke his face with a dirty hit? Stuart is top 10 in the league for Defensive Defenseman. Globe and mail should stick to stocks and bonds and all that s*** and leave hockey to people who actually know hockey. can't remember, was Shea Weber even on that list? or chara? cause they're pretty top notch defensive dmen.

[eva unit zero 271]

Everyone says that plus/minus is a skewed and overrated statistic, yet the same people rave every year about Lidstrom's high plus/minus totals.

Let's be objective a little folks. You can't have that stat both ways.

I've been complaining about plus-minus as loudly and as long as anyone here, and I have never sat around drooling about a player's plus-minus because it has less bearing on the player's performance than assists do on the player's ability to score goals.

[eva unit zero 271]

...which is why Brad Stuart is so valuable. Lids/Stuart is huge and the Wings goals against has gone up what...a GAG since Kockstopolous broke his face with a dirty hit? Stuart is top 10 in the league for Defensive Defenseman. Globe and mail should stick to stocks and bonds and all that s*** and leave hockey to people who actually know hockey. can't remember, was Shea Weber even on that list? or chara? cause they're pretty top notch defensive dmen.

Stuart is normally a very good defensive defenseman. But, and it may be a mental product of playing with Lidstrom, he has been simply ghastly in his own zone this year.

As far as Weber, he's pretty good defensively but he's always been an offensive defenseman. Chara is on the list at 10th, right behind Johnny Boychuk, who Chara has spent a great deal of the season paired with. This writer even states he is fully aware that his "system" will pull defensive pairings if they spend a lot of time together; Weber and Suter are a prime example. A rating system where the league's best defensive defenseman could have a wonderful individual season and still finish last due to the team surrounding him shows just how flawed it is; and it's merely a variation of plus-minus trying to account for the defensive side only.

[Guest Crymson]

On the guy's list of top defensive forwards in 2009-2010, Maltby and Miller are present but Datsyuk and Zetterberg are not.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Yes and no - this year Lids has been paired up with a bunch of different guys, all of whom needed a little pick up in their defensive game. First it was Ericsson (nuff said), then Stewie who was making gaffes left and right, and now Kron who likes to pinch and step up in the neutral zone too. I think he hung him out to dry twice last game. Even Raffy has been mediocre defensively this year. They all take advantage of Lids stability to either roam, pinch, join the rush, or just be stupid (as in Ericsson's case). Of course this is all subjective and takes away from the ability to make a numerical case for him, but that is kind of my point. Lids is still not only the centerpiece of the Wings D, he is also still the workhorse and the ballast for what is otherwise a sometimes unsteady group.

Off the top of my head (granted there's not a lot up there), I can't think of any other top tier D man who pairs up with so many partners.

Lidstrom has played with Stuart 75% of the time even strength. Kronwall and Rafalski makes up 15% of his pairings. Big E and Salei make up 10%.

Rafalski 76% with Big E.

Letang has spent 55% of his time with Orpik.

ButtMuffin 87% with Tobias Enstrom

Duncan Keith 70% with Seabrook.

Ryan Whitney only 28% with Tom Gilbert. (6 different DMen he's been paired with on a consistent basis and is a +13)

No offense, but your switching partner thing is debunked. I could have done a lot more people who switch partners frequently, are on crappier teams, have substantially higher +/- and only a handful of less points.

Lidstrom is the best Overall Defenseman in the league hands down, but he isn't the best defensive-defenseman in the league anymore.

On the guy's list of top defensive forwards in 2009-2010, Maltby and Miller are present but Datsyuk and Zetterberg are not.

The three stats I generally use come via Behind The Net and are quality of competition, goals against at even strength and goals against while shorthanded. Players also have to have played a minimum of 50 games and play regularly on the penalty kill. Keep in mind that I’m only considering players who play about two minutes a game on the penalty kill so players like Pavel Datsyuk aren’t included.

Zetterberg played 1 minute on average on the PK while Datsyuk played 44 seconds on average.

But way to take things out of context

Edited January 13, 2011 by Konnan511

[kook_10 1,705]

Dunno if I'd say our netminding has been unreliable as much as there's been many bad bounces/deflections/re-directions getting by Jimmy.

There's probably a mathematical way to account for differences in goalies. The fact that Tim Thomas has a Save % of .946 vs Jimmy's .907 should be accounted for if you want to create an objective numerical comparison of D-Men. All those extra goals shouldn't be hung on Lids. Maybe I will scratch something up later.

Lidstrom has played with Stuart 75% of the time even strength. Kronwall and Rafalski makes up 15% of his pairings. Big E and Salei make up 10%.

Rafalski 76% with Big E.

Letang has spent 55% of his time with Orpik.

ButtMuffin 87% with Tobias Enstrom

Duncan Keith 70% with Seabrook.

Ryan Whitney only 28% with Tom Gilbert. (6 different DMen he's been paired with on a consistent basis and is a +13)

No offense, but your switching partner thing is debunked. I could have done a lot more people who switch partners frequently, are on crappier teams, have substantially higher +/- and only a handful of less points.

Lidstrom is the best Overall Defenseman in the league hands down, but he isn't the best defensive-defenseman in the league anymore.

Served and eaten. Where did you get your pairings #s?

[Konnan511 1,736]

There's probably a mathematical way to account for differences in goalies. The fact that Tim Thomas has a Save % of .946 vs Jimmy's .907 should be accounted for if you want to create an objective numerical comparison of D-Men. All those extra goals shouldn't be hung on Lids. Maybe I will scratch something up later.

Served and eaten. Where did you get your pairings #s?

We both agree Lidstrom is the best defensemen in the league, so no crow needed!

Line Combos

[HankthaTank 1,100]

We both agree Lidstrom is the best defensemen in the league, so no crow needed!

But this is where all statements and things implied show credibility not only in hockey terms, but in life as well.

Better be hungry!!!!!

[Buppy 1,720]

Has anyone ever seen this report before? Apparently it's done every year, but this is the first I've seen of it. It is put together statistically, which is probably somewhat flawed because it's hard to argue who is the best defensively based on stats.

Anyway, I looked at last year's list and the list for top defensive forwards as well. These lists don't seem to correlate at all to who the voters end up voting for at the end of the year. Of course, when it comes to Norris, you have to consider all around play, but for Selke, you'd think defense should be all that matters (which of course we all know that's not true).

Lidstrom 30th?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/the-nhls-top-defensive-defencemen-at-midseason/article1867013/

Does he explain somewhere how he's weighting everything to come up with the rankings? I tried, but couldn't figure out his formula.

[kook_10 1,705]

Does he explain somewhere how he's weighting everything to come up with the rankings? I tried, but couldn't figure out his formula.

I started playing with the numbers too and they don't make sense. If you just straight ranked the categories and andded them up, Orpik would still come out on top, but most others would change.

[Original-Six 254]

i literally lol'ed and stopped reading and when i saw Orpik at #1.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Original-Six

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Darn. Nick won't be winning this fake "award" some writer from Canada conjured up.