sputman 1,268 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) who are these people you speak of?? don't say ericsson and abdelkader, they have turned down numerous fights this season. turning down fights is not always a bad thing when the other team loses an inferior player for 5 minutes. i remember abdelkader was going to go with iginla (bless him) but the refs got in the middle - that would have been a good trade. a few years ago cleary went with pronger to get him off of the ice for 5 minutes. we have really smart players. Edited January 25, 2011 by drumshanbo 1 Vladifan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WorkingOvertime 536 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Punching people and being punched...that does not make you tough. A goon with no skill might be tough, but not because he fights. Toughness is being able to overcome adversity in the forms it manifests itself as. For the Wings, it often seems to be an opponent where many of you guys start flipping out because we don't have an enforcer. But the Wings get through, because they have tough players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Draper, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Osgood. You can have your team full of Colton Orrs and Derek Boogards. I'll take a team full of Zetterbergs, Datsyuks, Lidstroms, or Kronwalls. You're off base here. No poster in this thread suggested we have a pure enforcer, or a team of them. The argument is, and has been, why not have a Neil, Konopka, Prust, etc in the lineup in place of someone like Miller? 2 F.Michael and esteef reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HOCKEY MATTERS 167 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 turning down fights is not always a bad thing when the other team loses an inferior player for 5 minutes. i remember abdelkader was going to go with iginla (bless him) but the refs got in the middle - that would have been a good trade. a few years ago cleary went with pronger to get him off of the ice for 5 minutes. we have really smart players. This. And the success of the Wings power play lately demands that we go 5 on 4 as often as we can. 1 Vladifan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jollymania 162 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 another thing is we need guys like ott or clutterbuck, the problem is they are worth as much as filppula or kronwall, thus we can't have them unless we give up something significant You're off base here. No poster in this thread suggested we have a pure enforcer, or a team of them. The argument is, and has been, why not have a Neil, Konopka, Prust, etc in the lineup in place of someone like Miller? miller is only 50,000 mroe than konopka, konopka is useless, miller is an awesome penalty killer, neil is waaaay more expensive, and prust is more expensive and at the moment more valuable to his team Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WorkingOvertime 536 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 another thing is we need guys like ott or clutterbuck, the problem is they are worth as much as filppula or kronwall, thus we can't have them unless we give up something significant miller is only 50,000 mroe than konopka, konopka is useless, miller is an awesome penalty killer, neil is waaaay more expensive, and prust is more expensive and at the moment more valuable to his team Have you ever seen Konopka play? How many Isles games have you watched this year or Lightning games last year? I'd post his stats but I'm on my phone. To say Konopka is useless shows a lack of knowledge on your part. 1 esteef reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Have you ever seen Konopka play? How many Isles games have you watched this year or Lightning games last year? I'd post his stats but I'm on my phone. To say Konopka is useless shows a lack of knowledge on your part. I would not be agaisnt Konopka joining the franchise. In the place of Drew Miller, however, and it would be a lateral move to marginal improvement. Either way, I like how Miller is finding his niche on the team. Especially considering the fourth line is our most consistent line on the team right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jollymania 162 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Have you ever seen Konopka play? How many Isles games have you watched this year or Lightning games last year? I'd post his stats but I'm on my phone. To say Konopka is useless shows a lack of knowledge on your part. I have him on my fantasy watch list, of course i follow his stats, he only has 1 goal and 5 assists, -8, 30 sog, 10 min toi Miller: 3 g 8 a +2 11:30 toi, 45 sog all konopka can do is fight, he doesn't have many big hits and certainly no game changers, so he isn't useless but damn near adn i have watched at least 20 games of each team this year and last, unless you are a raging fan of either team i doubt you have watched many more Edited January 25, 2011 by jollymania 3 Konnan511, Frozen-Man and Theophany reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACallToArms 270 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 What upsets me more than anything, is when Janssen hits Kronwall with a cheapshot, or Kostopoupus injuring Stuart, and no one does anything about it. These guys are supposed to be friends and teammates, yet they don't do a good job of standing up for each other in those situations. I know that wouldn't change the outcome of those injuries or games, but it'd be nice to show some ******* backbone in those scenarios and go after the guy who did it. I think that probably upsets guys like Lindsay and Kocur more than anything else. Yeah, that's great and all, but the NHL , whether you like it or not, is cutting down that aspect of the game. The refs barely let the players fight anymore, and most of the fights that they do let occur pale in comparison to fights in the past. If McCarty pulled the s*** he did back in the day in today's NHL, he'd be suspended. The NHL is actively taking enforcers out of the game, yet this buffoon of an author is criticizing the Wings for getting the job done, even without an enforcer presence. It is long past time to draft more North American players that play with heart and would do anything to win the Stanley Cup. Remember Stevie Yzerman playing on his busted up leg, trying to win? Do you see any one with that type of heart on this team? Did Don Cherry write this article? Blanket statements and xenophobia in one paragraph! Let's hope the "Holland House" becomes a thing of the past real soon. Yeah, let's get rid of the GM of what the entire league says is the model franchise in the NHL... 2 Theophany and Frozen-Man reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Punching people and being punched...that does not make you tough. A goon with no skill might be tough, but not because he fights. Toughness is being able to overcome adversity in the forms it manifests itself as. For the Wings, it often seems to be an opponent where many of you guys start flipping out because we don't have an enforcer. But the Wings get through, because they have tough players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Draper, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Osgood. You can have your team full of Colton Orrs and Derek Boogards. I'll take a team full of Zetterbergs, Datsyuks, Lidstroms, or Kronwalls. Eva you are ridiculous, sorry but you are one of the few who dont consider a guy who fights tough. You take a punch from Colton Orr for a living and then tell me that isn't just as tough as what Homer does. Seriously if thats what you consider toughness the nthats fine but its not what we are discussing here in this thread, overcoming adversity is a form of toughness sure. But in hockey a tough guy is someone who will throw huge hits, and drop the gloves, its pretty straight forward. We can argue that deifnition all we want but it doesn't change the fact that the wings are missing a "tough" player like Drake and if one was added in place of Miller (who was s*** in the playoffs last year) that it would help this team. Someone please tell me what Miller provides that someone like Konopka or Rupp couldn't? Or else its just pretty obvious you guys just like soft hockey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redwingfan19 293 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 I have him on my fantasy watch list, of course i follow his stats, he only has 1 goal and 5 assists, -8, 30 sog, 10 min toi Miller: 3 g 8 a +2 11:30 toi, 45 sog all konopka can do is fight, he doesn't have many big hits and certainly no game changers, so he isn't useless but damn near adn i have watched at least 20 games of each team this year and last, unless you are a raging fan of either team i doubt you have watched many more what is peoples love affair with miller? is it because he's a "michigan boy" or what. We got plenty of guys who can do what miller does and better. to say all konopka can do but fight is stupid. He can do everything miller can plus he has other obvious intangibles. He is also excellent on faceoffs and one of the leagues best in that department. we know how many goals not winning the draws has cost us this year... miller has a whopping 5 more pts and 18 seconds of PK time over knopka. we can also add that konopka plays on a terrible team. If anything, konopka would be an upgrade over miller. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InHankWeTrust 6 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Totally agree but only to a point. The Wings are certainly softer than they were in the old days but I think it's unfair to question their heart. When I see the Wings I see a team that never seems to just cash it in even when their losing. One thing is for certain, we need to beef up a bit up front and on the blue line. We can't always depend on finesse to win hockey games. Sometimes it's the gritty plays that are most effective and I think we lack the big physical players on both offense and defense. Still I see no reason why we can't make another serious run this year...as long as goal tending holds up that is. 1 Vladifan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LOredwing248 7 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 I know the salary cap forces teams to keep players that are not truly NHL caliber. For example, the Wings have Todd Bertuzzi and Tomas Holmstrom. They constantly take dumb penalties and give the puck away like it is the object of the game. I stopped reading after this sentence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sputman 1,268 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 I stopped reading after this sentence. i wish i had. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sputman 1,268 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Agree. I like the (healthy) lineup but still think we could benefit from a "playoff Drake" or a "regular season Prust". esteef listen to that crowd. i haven't heard 'em like that in too long. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Bourne Blog: When it comes to intimidation, it's hitters over fighters In this current era of the professional hockey, it's far more intimidating to play a guy who can hit than one who can fight. I have to believe it's only a matter of time before more general managers realize this, and stop paying thugs like Derek Boogaard(notes) one-point-anything million per year to not impact the game.The reality of the league today is that some players simply never have to fight, and that's a good thing. In most cases, those are the same players who affect the scoreboard at the final buzzer, relegating the fighters to this odd little in-game sideshow. As a Twitter follower once asked me: How much does it prevent Pittsburgh Penguins winger Matt Cooke(notes) from running, say, Mats Zuccarello(notes) of the New York Rangers from behind if the price is that now Eric Goddard is going to fight Derek Boogaard because the game is getting out of hand? It doesn't prevent it at all. Matt Cooke is never going to fight Boogaard, so there's no reason for him to change the way he plays. For me, I knew there was a zero percent chance that I would ever end up in a fight against our opponent's heavyweight, so when that guy was out there, it was like being on a powerplay. Most hired goons can't play (especially at the lower levels), so unless they were the type to use cheap stickwork, they were irrelevant to me. The real heavies aren't exactly fleet of foot either, so they generally aren't the guys flying about mowing people over. They're commercial planes battling jet fighters. But when you play one of those human wrecking balls that can skate and time the type of monster hits that leaves gloves and helmets and sticks strewn about the ice like it's a yard sale, you're rarely thinking about the next nifty stickhandle you're about to make when you're cutting across the blueline. Think of a guy like Nashville Predators winger Jordan Tootoo - as a skill guy, would I rather take a shift against him or George Parros(notes) of the Anaheim Ducks? It's a no-brainer. I'm not going to have to fight Parros, but I'm sure as hell not exempt from Tootoo's wrath. In the past couple days, Toronto Maple Leafs defenseman Dion Phaneuf(notes) has put two people into other dimensions - he had a solid check on Matt Beleskey(notes) of Anaheim the other day, but the big beauty was on Jussi Jokinen(notes), who made two mistakes: A) He hit Phaneuf earlier in the game and got himself on the most wanted list, and B) He had the audacity to try to corral a pass in the neutral zone against a guy who's somewhat notorious for blowing people up there. Of course, Phaneuf's hit was somewhat selfish (the puck carried on to a third Hurricanes forward who continued the rush), but I can guarantee you next time Jokinen gets a pass in that spot against Phaneuf, he'll be less worried about the puck. If that situation arises again he may even miss the pass, given that it's a touch distracting trying to make a play when you're concerned about the connectedness of your collar bone. Big hits like that have an effect on future plays far more than watching two lumbering oafs chuck piles of boney meat at each other's faces. Jokinen would never fight Phaneuf, let alone Colton Orr(notes), which is exactly my point: for skill guys, heavyweights are a complete non-factor on how they play, and thus, a non-factor on game outcomes. The sad part is, the thugs of the league are even less relevant come playoffs, which is the complete opposite of players who can time big hits, and throw a lot of them. You'd rather put Minnesota Wild forward Cal Clutterbuck(notes) on your playoff roster than Derek Boogaard, yet he makes $700,000 less than him this year because apparently GM's value having that nuclear option on the bench over troops that are actually armed. It's a preposterous misjudgement of what matters in today's NHL. I'm not sure if we'll ever see fighting fully weeded from hockey, but our skill guys know that they're already exempt from getting involved in anything too lopsided. They love to play those one-dimensional monsters, and won't even give them a second thought. A human cannonball on skates, however? That'll wander across your mind when you're considering trying something cute with the puck. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Bourne-Blog-When-it-comes-to-intimidation-it-s?urn=nhl-312277#remaining-content Don't shoot the messenger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sputman 1,268 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Bourne Blog: When it comes to intimidation, it's hitters over fighters http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Bourne-Blog-When-it-comes-to-intimidation-it-s?urn=nhl-312277#remaining-content Don't shoot the messenger. i couldn't agree more with that. perfectly stated. is that bob bourne? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dallas27 7 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 If it ain't broke don't fix it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Eva you are ridiculous You want toughness on this team? Well didn't you know that Zetterberg is a power forward? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 i couldn't agree more with that. perfectly stated. is that bob bourne? Jason Justin Bourne. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esteef 2,679 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Bourne Blog: When it comes to intimidation, it's hitters over fighters http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Bourne-Blog-When-it-comes-to-intimidation-it-s?urn=nhl-312277#remaining-content Don't shoot the messenger. So he's anti-enforcer, so what? esteef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,793 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Don't these faces just scream intimidation and toughness? Edited January 25, 2011 by GMRwings1983 2 HankthaTank and Vladifan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HankthaTank 1,100 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Don't these faces just scream intimidation and toughness? or.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 Don't shoot the messenger. Noone is going to shoot the messenger here I dont think, that article is saying exactly what most on here, myself included are saying. A big useless goon like Boogard isn't what we are asking for but that article is saying guys like Tootoo and Clutterbuck who are forwards that go out there and just try to put people through the glass out there like Drake did. It is no coincidence that these types of players do also fight a bit, that style of game usually makes a player have to fight every now and then. Detroit doesn't have a guy on forward right now who plays like the guy in that article is saying. Abdelkader could be that guy, but he isn't yet, he is more of a physical player with some skill. Clutterbuck, Tootoo and Drake were all freight trains on skates looking to put people through the glass. Watching those youtube clips of Drake, its impossible to say a player like that doesn't have an impact on momentum come playoff time. That shift against Dallas changed the momentum and you could tell the wings were energized. What did Drew Miller do last year in the playoffs that has people wanting him over a guy like Drake who can have shifts like that? Honestly the only thing he has going for him is his PKing and he isn't even that great at that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holliday 1,888 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) So he's anti-enforcer, so what? esteef He did play the game at a higher level than I would assume anyone on these boards did. Just another opinion from someone who likely has a better perspective than we do. Newfy: So you are admitting that fighting is not part of the conversation at all? Edited January 25, 2011 by Doc Holliday Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newfy 695 Report post Posted January 25, 2011 or.... If Ericcson did fight and use his size he could be intimidating, but he hardly does. Abdelkader maybe come playoff time could as well but he hasn't really so far this year. Abdelkader is a hard nosed player but he isn't much compared to a guy like Clutterbuck, Drake or Tootoo like the above article was saying. If those 2 are your toughest players, you probably have the softest team in the league and not much balance Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
