Wings Have To Toughen Up Soon

[Konnan511 1,736]

Come on now, Konnan. There is a surplus of players that can throw their weight around and put up points.

*Raffi Torres-21 Points

*Brandon Prust-18 Points

*Gregory Campbell-18 Points

*Jason Chimera-17 Points

*Matt Hendricks-15 Points

*Chris Thorburn-15 Points

*Shawn Thornton-12 Points

*David Clarkson-12 Points

*Brad Winchester-12 Points

*Chris Neil-11 Points

*B.J. Crombeen-10 Points

I can keep going if need be...

Point is, there are plenty of bottom 6 guys that can take a regular shift and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. I specifically remember wanting Kenny to sign Matt Hendricks to a league minimum contract over the summer, and I was laughed at.

Drake averaged darn near a .5 PPG over his 1000 game career. Your list of players is full of guys who may be lucky to put up 20 points on a consistent basis, let alone 35-40 that Drake did. Like I've said in other threads. On the fouth line, i'll take a guy who can put up 10 goals and 10 assists and hits hard and fights over a Miller type player, as long as they make the same amount of money.

I like Neil, but I liked first two seasons with Ottawa Neil more where he showed more offence. I'd take Miller at 650K and his 20 points over Neil at 2mil for his 20 points.

In the other threads I've said I'd love Prust here, but only because the previous seasons he showed no offensive abilities whatsoever and is now finding his grove after being in a stable relationship with a team for once.

Of your list you threw out, there are guys I'd take over Miller, but there also guys I just laughed at.

Also, on your list, you have guys that are paid quite well, and I'm strictly talking about 4th liners being paid 4th line money ala Miller. As well, some players you listed are having career years, or at least on pace for careers.

I'm not against physical players. Miller is highly replaceable, as long as their pay is roughly the same and their offence is roughly on par.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Z - Datsyuk - Homer

Bert - Fil - Franzen

Cleary - Abdelkader - Hudler

Eaves - Helm - Clarkson

Works for me. Slot Danny up there with Val and Mule and we got ourselves the '11-'12 Detroit Red Wings with Geno Nabokov in between the pipes.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a stay at home D-Man who hits hard and willing to fight since they play a lot more minutes as a third pairing DMan than would a 4th liner? I think we should turn our attention to Defense, rather than Offense.

Works for me. Slot Danny up there with Val and Mule and we got ourselves the '11-'12 Detroit Red Wings with Geno Nabokov in between the pipes.

What do we do with Mursak and Emmerton? Bundle them at the trade deadline?

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Drake averaged darn near a .5 PPG over his 1000 game career. Your list of players is full of guys who may be lucky to put up 20 points on a consistent basis, let alone 35-40 that Drake did. Like I've said in other threads. On the fouth line, i'll take a guy who can put up 10 goals and 10 assists and hits hard and fights over a Miller type player, as long as they make the same amount of money.

I like Neil, but I liked first two seasons with Ottawa Neil more where he showed more offence. I'd take Miller at 650K and his 20 points over Neil at 2mil for his 20 points.

In the other threads I've said I'd love Prust here, but only because the previous seasons he showed no offensive abilities whatsoever and is now finding his grove after being in a stable relationship with a team for once.

Of your list you threw out, there are guys I'd take over Miller, but there also guys I just laughed at.

Also, on your list, you have guys that are paid quite well, and I'm strictly talking about 4th liners being paid 4th line money ala Miller. As well, some players you listed are having career years, or at least on pace for careers.

I'm not against physical players. Miller is highly replaceable, as long as their pay is roughly the same and their offence is roughly on par.

Fair enough. Neil is insanely overpaid. Anything like 2 mil for a fourth liner is ridiculous. For Miller's salary, there are still plenty of guys i'd take over him. A guy that is not on that list that makes roughly (if not less) than Miller is Derek Dorsett in Columbus. I see some wicked offensive potential in him. He is near the top of my wish list. Now that I think about it, wasn't it you who mentioned you'd like to see him here, too?

[HankthaTank 1,100]

What do we do with Mursak and Emmerton? Bundle them at the trade deadline?

Emmerton will probably not be on this team next year or any other seasons in the future so, yes, we can package him into a deal at some point. That's the tough part with Mursak looking like a more than legit NHL player we just might have to find time to get him in. The overriping in GR cannot happen much longer with Muskrat so I think that is a more than valid point you bring up. But as we have seen for the last few seasons, it never hurts to have some real solid depth throughout the season.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Fair enough. Neil is insanely overpaid. Anything like 2 mil for a fourth liner is ridiculous. For Miller's salary, there are still plenty of guys i'd take over him. A guy that is not on that list that makes roughly (if not less) than Miller is Derek Dorsett in Columbus. I see some wicked offensive potential in him. He is near the top of my wish list. Now that I think about it, wasn't it you who mentioned you'd like to see him here, too?

Yes. Yes it was. He is my pipe dream. He's going to be the Milan Lucic that everyone thinks Milan Lucic is.

The only reason i don't want Raffi Torres is because he is a huge ****** and had a propensity for taking out Red Wings

[HankthaTank 1,100]

If we are doing the "pipe dream" thing, what could Chris Stewart be had for do ya think?

[Konnan511 1,736]

If we are doing the "pipe dream" thing, what could Chris Stewart be had for do ya think?

We also need him to fill the minority quota since Lilja left.

Stewart is a hell of a player, he plays the white way....right way.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Yes. Yes it was. He is my pipe dream. He's going to be the Milan Lucic that everyone thinks Milan Lucic is.

The only reason i don't want Raffi Torres is because he is a huge ****** and had a propensity for taking out Red Wings

I saw Dorsett got a five minute major for boarding earlier so i'll have to look for the vid...That and Torres is making nearly double of what Miller is right now. Although it will probably not sit well with many posters here, I wouldn't mind seeing Dan Carcillo here. He shows a bit of offensive potential, not as much as Dorsett, in my mind though.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

$2,875,000 for Stewart....

For Hudler, Kindl, and a pair of Bauers.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

$2,875,000 for Stewart....

For Hudler, Kindl, and a pair of Bauers.

You trying to start a riot?

[Konnan511 1,736]

$2,875,000 for Stewart....

For Hudler, Kindl, and a pair of Bauers.

The Wings would come off as robbers in that deal.

I also don't think he'll be fighting as much since he has now learned you can break your hand by punching someones skull lol.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Hah! Don't make me laugh.

Sorry, but big does not = tough. At no point, other than the occasional rare fight, have I seen Ericsson display a true mean streak. I'd say he's about as intimidating as Eric Daze.

I don't get the Ericsson love either.

People are trying to make him sound like Lilja or something. Guy occasionally drops the gloves, but is hardly dominant and hugs frequently. He probably couldn't even beat up Patrick Sharp.

Edited January 26, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

I don't get the Ericsson love either.

People are trying to make him sound like Lilja or something. Guy occasionally drops the gloves, but is hardly dominant and hugs frequently. He probably couldn't even beat up Patrick Sharp.

I personally think adding Matt Carkner could help him out a little, as far as the defensive part of his game. Blocking shots, etc. Maybe a fighting lesson or two wouldn't hurt him.

[eva unit zero 271]

Drake averaged darn near a .5 PPG over his 1000 game career. Your list of players is full of guys who may be lucky to put up 20 points on a consistent basis, let alone 35-40 that Drake did. Like I've said in other threads. On the fouth line, i'll take a guy who can put up 10 goals and 10 assists and hits hard and fights over a Miller type player, as long as they make the same amount of money.

I like Neil, but I liked first two seasons with Ottawa Neil more where he showed more offence. I'd take Miller at 650K and his 20 points over Neil at 2mil for his 20 points.

In the other threads I've said I'd love Prust here, but only because the previous seasons he showed no offensive abilities whatsoever and is now finding his grove after being in a stable relationship with a team for once.

Of your list you threw out, there are guys I'd take over Miller, but there also guys I just laughed at.

Also, on your list, you have guys that are paid quite well, and I'm strictly talking about 4th liners being paid 4th line money ala Miller. As well, some players you listed are having career years, or at least on pace for careers.

I'm not against physical players. Miller is highly replaceable, as long as their pay is roughly the same and their offence is roughly on par.

Dallas Drake was a legit top six forward in his prime. He played with Roenick and Tkachuk in Phoenix, and was a top-six forward on his team all but three seasons. His final year, in Detroit, where he played fourth line on a stacked team. His last year in St. Louis, where he was demoted to the third line due to the emergence of young forwards. And his second year in the league, where he was ousted from the top-six spot he had held in his rookie season by Keith Primeau. Even then, Drake was immediately the best forward on Winnipeg's second line, playing for the second year in a row with Paul Ysebaert, who had been traded there early in the year by Chicago.

A list of the better fourth line grinders in the league is not a list of "Drake" type players. If you want a player who plays like Drake in his prime, you're going to be hard pressed. Figuring the prime as the best years of a player's career, usually 5-8 years somewhere between 25-35 years old, Drake's prime would be the 350 games he played between 93-94 and 98-99.

He was a guy who scored about 20 goals and 50 points, and one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL. Hard hitter, very effective pest, key PKer. Had he been used on the PP, he might have been in the 70-80 point range. But he rarely saw that time, instead going to guys like Roenick, Tkachuk, Janney, Ronning, Emerson, Tocchet, Zhamnov, Selanne, Doan, and even Travis Green over the years. He saw some early on in St. Louis, but his offensive skills were waning then, so his scoring was headed down and he was soon replaced.

Find an elite defensive forward who scores 20 goals and 30 assists (probably more like 25-40 now with clutch and grab gone), and is a physical force; someone who can fill any role up front, either wing , and you have a guy who fits the Dallas Drake model. Mike Fisher is about as close of a fit as I can think of, and he's not much of a fighter. Abdelkader is like a B-grade version of Drake; if you set up a league of 30 teams and used no players who were legit top-six forwards, top three defensemen, or starting goalies then Abdelkader would probably be a pretty good copy of Drake relative to the league.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Dallas Drake was a legit top six forward in his prime. He played with Roenick and Tkachuk in Phoenix, and was a top-six forward on his team all but three seasons. His final year, in Detroit, where he played fourth line on a stacked team. His last year in St. Louis, where he was demoted to the third line due to the emergence of young forwards. And his second year in the league, where he was ousted from the top-six spot he had held in his rookie season by Keith Primeau. Even then, Drake was immediately the best forward on Winnipeg's second line, playing for the second year in a row with Paul Ysebaert, who had been traded there early in the year by Chicago.

A list of the better fourth line grinders in the league is not a list of "Drake" type players. If you want a player who plays like Drake in his prime, you're going to be hard pressed. Figuring the prime as the best years of a player's career, usually 5-8 years somewhere between 25-35 years old, Drake's prime would be the 350 games he played between 93-94 and 98-99.

He was a guy who scored about 20 goals and 50 points, and one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL. Hard hitter, very effective pest, key PKer. Had he been used on the PP, he might have been in the 70-80 point range. But he rarely saw that time, instead going to guys like Roenick, Tkachuk, Janney, Ronning, Emerson, Tocchet, Zhamnov, Selanne, Doan, and even Travis Green over the years. He saw some early on in St. Louis, but his offensive skills were waning then, so his scoring was headed down and he was soon replaced.

Find an elite defensive forward who scores 20 goals and 30 assists (probably more like 25-40 now with clutch and grab gone), and is a physical force; someone who can fill any role up front, either wing , and you have a guy who fits the Dallas Drake model. Mike Fisher is about as close of a fit as I can think of, and he's not much of a fighter. Abdelkader is like a B-grade version of Drake; if you set up a league of 30 teams and used no players who were legit top-six forwards, top three defensemen, or starting goalies then Abdelkader would probably be a pretty good copy of Drake relative to the league.

I don't get why you're quoting me... Is that you saying you agree with me about Drake being of a dying breed in the NHL?

[newfy 695]

Dallas Drake was a legit top six forward in his prime...

The thing about that is, Drake wasn't in his prime here, he had 3 goals and 3 assists and basically was just there to be physical. Things worked out for the wings pretty good that year.

And even Drake in his prime isn't that rare of a player, 35 points with a physical edge is not nearly as hard to find as people seem to think on here. You could get someone capable of 40 points with a physical edge for pretty close to what Hudler is making.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

The thing about that is, Drake wasn't in his prime here, he had 3 goals and 3 assists and basically was just there to be physical. Things worked out for the wings pretty good that year.

And even Drake in his prime isn't that rare of a player, 35 points with a physical edge is not nearly as hard to find as people seem to think on here. You could get someone capable of 40 points with a physical edge for pretty close to what Hudler is making.

And you are basing this on your opinion that Hudler will never get more than 40 points for the rest of his career.

Well okay then.

[eva unit zero 271]

The thing about that is, Drake wasn't in his prime here, he had 3 goals and 3 assists and basically was just there to be physical. Things worked out for the wings pretty good that year.

And even Drake in his prime isn't that rare of a player, 35 points with a physical edge is not nearly as hard to find as people seem to think on here. You could get someone capable of 40 points with a physical edge for pretty close to what Hudler is making.

I can think of Benoit Pouliot, Blake Wheeler, Cal Clutterbuck, Taylor Pyatt, Martin Hanzal?

There might be a few I missed, and there were some who were in the $4m-$5m range. I also left out players on entry-level contracts because there are restrictions on how much those contracts can be for.

[newfy 695]

And you are basing this on your opinion that Hudler will never get more than 40 points for the rest of his career.

Well okay then.

Where did I say that? Hudler can be a consistent 50 point guy in my eyes, but I think a physical guy getting 40 is better for this team then Hudler getting 50.

If we didn't carry 14 forwards, Kenny could take the money from Hudler and Filppula and put it towards a player like that. You can get guys like that for around 3 million

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Where did I say that? Hudler can be a consistent 50 point guy in my eyes, but I think a physical guy getting 40 is better for this team then Hudler getting 50.

If we didn't carry 14 forwards, Kenny could take the money from Hudler and Filppula and put it towards a player like that. You can get guys like that for around 3 million

Personally I think we can keep the offensive depth (because who doesn't want offensive depth) while our prospects get seasoned and we can rotate different players when it seems right to switch them for upgrades. As of right now it potentially can be Miller but he has been doing pretty well on the PK so I'm inclined not to worry about it until the deadline and offseason.

[eva unit zero 271]

The thing about that is, Drake wasn't in his prime here, he had 3 goals and 3 assists and basically was just there to be physical. Things worked out for the wings pretty good that year.

And even Drake in his prime isn't that rare of a player, 35 points with a physical edge is not nearly as hard to find as people seem to think on here. You could get someone capable of 40 points with a physical edge for pretty close to what Hudler is making.

Drake in his prime was worth 20 goals and 50 points. Would probably even higher in today's NHL; maybe 25-65. That kind of a production from a top notch defensive forward who brings a physical presence? I'll buy.

[mjlegend 155]

Where did I say that? Hudler can be a consistent 50 point guy in my eyes, but I think a physical guy getting 40 is better for this team then Hudler getting 50.

If we didn't carry 14 forwards, Kenny could take the money from Hudler and Filppula and put it towards a player like that. You can get guys like that for around 3 million

I don't agree with the premise of letting Flip or Huds go right now, but what "physical guy" with "40" points can the Wings get for $3 million? Because there's certainly no one on the RFA list or the UFA list for 2011 that I can see.

[mjlegend 155]

Drake in his prime was worth 20 goals and 50 points. Would probably even higher in today's NHL; maybe 25-65. That kind of a production from a top notch defensive forward who brings a physical presence? I'll buy.

His highest totals were 20 goals (04-05) and 45 points (99-00). He only cracked 40 points four times in 16 years and he only played all 82 games once. I liked his contributions to the league, but come one, man...

[Joey v3.4 45]

Who is the last "Tough Guy" who actually worked out well for Detroit?

Drake in 2008 had 6 points in 65 games.

If we picked up a tough guy, I would just hope it's not someone on the down slope of their career.

I don't know who you might replace anyway. Normally I would say Hudler, but as much as we talk s*** about him, the fact is he's still young and does have 60 point potential.

I find it funny that I started watching hockey...eh....about eighteen years ago, and every year one of two things happens:

1) People demand we toughen up, and find an enforcer.

2) When we do, people complain about something else instead.

:-p