Wings Have To Toughen Up Soon

[The Secret 304]

What upsets me more than anything, is when Janssen hits Kronwall with a cheapshot, or Kostopoupus injuring Stuart, and no one does anything about it. These guys are supposed to be friends and teammates, yet they don't do a good job of standing up for each other in those situations. I know that wouldn't change the outcome of those injuries or games, but it'd be nice to show some ******* backbone in those scenarios and go after the guy who did it. I think that probably upsets guys like Lindsay and Kocur more than anything else.

I don't often agree with a lot of what you say but you are spot on here. I also agree with a lot of what the article suggests also. I am not pro-goon but I am all for having some guys on the team that do exactly as GMR mentions above.... have some balls and stick up for your team mates. We all saw Hall get leveled by Doughty and we all saw his mates sticking up for him... and that was a clean hit... Our player are too wuss to do it on dirty s***. I'll say again, I don't see any benefit of having a pure goon whose sole purpose is fighting, it doesn't stop or deter anything imho, but I do think this team would greatly benefit from having some players that can play, finish check and stick up for one another! I'd be happy right now to see guys like Franzen step into some checks, Or Filppula learning to deliver a solid check, Where did killer Kronwall go? Remember him and his boarderline illegal hits knocking players out? I thought Salei was going to add some grit but I don't see it? Looks like we have some young kids in the system that could be bringing that element when they make it to the big team but we could use 1 or 2 right now and I think it would spice the game up some and allow us to push back.

[newfy 695]

Drake in his prime was worth 20 goals and 50 points. Would probably even higher in today's NHL; maybe 25-65. That kind of a production from a top notch defensive forward who brings a physical presence? I'll buy.

So would I 100%. But Drake was absolutely fine here when he wasn't in his prime and only put up 6 points all season. People really put too much emphasis on a guy being able to produce points it seems. drake sure as hell didn't but most people would be absolutely happy to have him back here

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Who is the last "Tough Guy" who actually worked out well for Detroit?

[eva unit zero 271]

His highest totals were 20 goals (04-05) and 45 points (99-00). He only cracked 40 points four times in 16 years and he only played all 82 games once. I liked his contributions to the league, but come one, man...

I'm going based on his points per game over the span. If Datsyuk scored 70 points in 80 games one year, and then the next two years scored 15 points in ten games, he would be worth 80 points in 80 games over that span even though for two of those seasons he was well above that pace, and he would likely well exceed it playing significant time in the following year.

Or Jiri Hudler right now. Hudler has scored 12 points in 14 games; if he continues that pace he will finish the year near the 50 point mark. But that is only because he spent such a long time earlier in the season having such trouble getting on the scoresheet. Twelve in fourteen is closer to a 75-point pace than a 50-point pace.

Understand now?

[Barrie 900]

There are some bright spots with the likes of Darren Helm, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Justin Abdelkader and, of course, Nicklas Lidstrom. But does this team have the heart and toughness to win it all?

This part of the article made me laugh. Combined, those players have 8 Cup rings and 2 Conn Smythe trophies.

Enforcers are useless in the playoffs, they're always the first players who are healthy scratches. For example Aaron Downey didn't play a shift in our cup winning 2008 playoffs. Also note, in 243 regular season games, Aaron's only played 5 playoffs games, and he's been on good teams too!

I'll add, Tie Domi by himself killed any chance the Maple Leafs had for a deep Cup run in 2001 when he elbowed Neidermayer in a game the Leafs were beating the Devils and looked like they had control of the series.

I understand everything doesn't have to be positive in the media, but I find it difficult to criticize a team that made 2 straight trips to the Cup Finals, a trip to the Conference Finals the season before, and pretty much ran out of gas from 3 straight 95+ game seasons last year. Also they played a team last year that was playing gutless hockey diving all over the place to cheat their way past them (and no calls from the refs I might add).

Edit: If people want to see players punching each other, watch UFC.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Barrie

[Vladifan 680]

I also noticed that Backes was picked waaay late in the draft last night. And this, after all his big talk about how many players on the draft roster that he took out. I did get a kick out of him saying something about Lidstrom....that he wanted to hit him but couldn't catch up with him...? Anybody else hear that or did I wishfully make it up?

[esteef 2,679]

Enforcers are useless in the playoffs, they're always the first players who are healthy scratches. For example Aaron Downey didn't play a shift in our cup winning 2008 playoffs. Also note, in 243 regular season games, Aaron's only played 5 playoffs games, and he's been on good teams too!

Yet Asham, Laperriere, Carcillo and Eager all played during the playoffs for a total of 71 games and that's just from the two teams who went all the way to the SCF. It would've been more had Lappy not been hurt. I guess those teams were just lucky considering all those guys are useless? Maybe Detroit could learn a thing or two from this instead of letting guys like Hudler get lit up at center ice then disappear for the rest of the playoffs.

Enforcers play in the playoffs and are not useless. It depends on the player and the opponent.

esteef

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Yet Asham, Laperriere, Carcillo and Eager all played during the playoffs for a total of 71 games and that's just from the two teams who went all the way to the SCF. It would've been more had Lappy not been hurt. I guess those teams were just lucky considering all those guys are useless? Maybe Detroit could learn a thing or two from this instead of letting guys like Hudler get lit up at center ice then disappear for the rest of the playoffs.

Enforcers play in the playoffs and are not useless. It depends on the player and the opponent.

esteef

Hudler was an effective part of Detroit's 2008 cup win.

And Hudler was not the only one to "disappear" during the cup finals, and lack of an enforcer had nothing to do with it.

[esteef 2,679]

And Hudler was not the only one to "disappear" during the cup finals, and lack of an enforcer had nothing to do with it.

Really? How do you know? And what about the "useless" players getting playoff games?

esteef

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Really? How do you know? And what about the "useless" players getting playoff games?

esteef

I'm not Barrie. You seem to have me mistaken for him.

[esteef 2,679]

I'm not Barrie. You seem to have me mistaken for him.

You responded to my post?

esteef

[newfy 695]

If people want to see players punching each other, watch UFC.

Haha classic bandwagoner comment. Punching people in the face has happened in hockey since the game started being played pal, maybe you should stick to watching women's hockey, it doesn't have hitting either so you'll probably like it even more since you dont seem to like the parts of hockey that have been there FROM THE BEGINNING

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

You responded to my post?

esteef

My issue was with your post was the idea that Hudler was made ineffective because he was hit and there was nobody to prevent/defend against the hit laid on him.

[newfy 695]

My issue was with your post was the idea that Hudler was made ineffective because he was hit and there was nobody to prevent/defend against the hit laid on him.

I'm pretty sure esteef was saying that Hudler got hit once and became ineffective basically right after whereas a Lappy type would be the one laying a hit that would make the other team ineffective, you know Detroit is allowed to hand out a little punishment every now and then too, not everyone has to take punishment like Hudler did. Lappy would've bounced up from that hit and hit Brown back even harder probably lol

[esteef 2,679]

My issue was with your post was the idea that Hudler was made ineffective because he was hit and there was nobody to prevent/defend against the hit laid on him.

Hudler had 2 goals and 2 assists in the four games before the hit, and 2 goals and 6 assists the next 18 games after the hit. Draw your own conclusions.

esteef

[Broken 16 381]

Hudler had 2 goals and 2 assists in the four games before the hit, and 2 goals and 6 assists the next 18 games after the hit. Draw your own conclusions.

esteef

Wow... people are still citing that hit on Hudler as a sign of softness?

Edited January 29, 2011 by Broken 16

[Hockey Convert 55]

Who is the last "Tough Guy" who actually worked out well for Detroit?

...If we picked up a tough guy, I would just hope it's not someone on the down slope of their career.

I can't honestly tell if you meant it this way or not, but I think the second statement illustrates the problem with the first. It's hard to definitively say what the effect would be until the front office makes a real effort to get a more rounded "enforcer" type, rather than as an afterthought; i.e. a more legitimate candidate.

1) People demand we toughen up, and find an enforcer.

2) When we do, people complain about something else instead.

Hehe, I can't argue with that. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the point, though, as much as say something about human nature...

Wow... people are still citing that hit on Hudler as a sign of softness?

I don't see a problem with using it as one example. I don't think anyone's trying to claim that as sole evidence for the argument, though. My opinion- and I can't speak for others, but from reading these threads I don't think I'm alone- is that it's self-evident in almost every game in the last couple years. Watching the Wings play any tough team gives me the same thought: more systematic toughness would help the team. Knowing teammates will stick up for you when the going gets tough, less worrying about blind-side hits, etc. And for me, of course, it also comes down to gritty hockey being more fun to watch; as I've found watching Boston games this year.

I don't think there's any value it arguing any of these specific incidents, because it's obvious that not everyone will agree about how any given one went down. 'Course, it's a discussion forum, so those who wish to do just that will continue, and I support that.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Wow... people are still citing that hit on Hudler as a sign of softness?

Clearly it's because he is short and European.

[Broken 16 381]

I don't see a problem with using it as one example. I don't think anyone's trying to claim that as sole evidence for the argument, though. My opinion- and I can't speak for others, but from reading these threads I don't think I'm alone- is that it's self-evident in almost every game in the last couple years. Watching the Wings play any tough team gives me the same thought: more systematic toughness would help the team. Knowing teammates will stick up for you when the going gets tough, less worrying about blind-side hits, etc. And for me, of course, it also comes down to gritty hockey being more fun to watch; as I've found watching Boston games this year.

I don't think there's any value it arguing any of these specific incidents, because it's obvious that not everyone will agree about how any given one went down. 'Course, it's a discussion forum, so those who wish to do just that will continue, and I support that.

Ya... but it's been the default example for too long now. It comes up constantly in every toughness thread. The pro-toughness peeps slam it down like it's the ace of spades pretty regularly. And all it really proves is that Hudler got knocked the f*** out and it affected his play the rest of the way. Big deal. Like it hasn't happened to countless other athletes in every sport. Hell, I twisted my wrist up playing fooz ball one time and it took me about a week to gather up the courage to try that shot again.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Broken 16

[esteef 2,679]

Ya... but it's been the default example for too long now. It comes up constantly in every toughness thread. The pro-toughness peeps slam it down like it's the ace of spades pretty regularly. And all it really proves is that Hudler got knocked the f*** out and it affected his play the rest of the way. Big deal. Like it hasn't happened to countless other athletes in every sport. Hell, I twisted my wrist up playing fooz ball one time and it took me about a week to gather up the courage to try that shot again.

And the ace of spades for the anti-enforcers has always been that enforcers don't play in the playoffs which is simply untrue. The Hudler example was just to show that maybe a tougher player (if we had one) could've played against Anaheim more instead of little Huddles getting pushed around every game. One example that's all.

esteef

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Hudler had 2 goals and 2 assists in the four games before the hit, and 2 goals and 6 assists the next 18 games after the hit. Draw your own conclusions.

esteef

Did Toews get hit by someone to hurt his production as the rounds went on in the 2010 playoffs?

And the ace of spades for the anti-enforcers has always been that enforcers don't play in the playoffs which is simply untrue. The Hudler example was just to show that maybe a tougher player (if we had one) could've played against Anaheim more instead of little Huddles getting pushed around every game. One example that's all.

esteef

You cannot disagree that the role of the enforcer is lessened during the playoffs. Things get locked down, time is rationed, and fights are less apparent.

Of course this is all moot considering the entire argument is based on "team toughness", which there seems to be enough for the bottom six. The fourth line seems to do very well in the other team's zone and the third line is effective as well.

Having a core of Abdelkader, Helm, Eaves, and Miller for bottom 6 guys isn't half bad. A bigger, more nasty player wouldn't hurt on the grit department, either. However it's not like Detroit is really "needing" more of the gritty aspect on the team.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Doc Holliday

[esteef 2,679]

Did Toews get hit by someone to hurt his production as the rounds went on in the 2010 playoffs?

You cannot disagree that the role of the enforcer is lessened during the playoffs. Things get locked down, time is rationed, and fights are less apparent.

Of course this is all moot considering the entire argument is based on "team toughness", which there seems to be enough for the bottom six. The fourth line seems to do very well in the other team's zone and the third line is effective as well.

Having a core of Abdelkader, Helm, Eaves, and Miller for bottom 6 guys isn't half bad. A bigger, more nasty player wouldn't hurt on the grit department, either. However it's not like Detroit is really "needing" more of the gritty aspect on the team.

Toews doesn't play for the Wings so I really don't care what happened to him. I agree the enforcer role is somewhat lessened during the playoffs but again I would say the opponent is the determining factor there. Again, I'm pretty happy with our bottom lines but really think a Prust type player would greatly benefit the players you mentioned, and I would add Ericsson and Salei in that mix of beneficiaries too.

We need a hammer!

esteef

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Toews doesn't play for the Wings so I really don't care what happened to him. I agree the enforcer role is somewhat lessened during the playoffs but again I would say the opponent is the determining factor there. Again, I'm pretty happy with our bottom lines but really think a Prust type player would greatly benefit the players you mentioned, and I would add Ericsson and Salei in that mix of beneficiaries too.

We need a hammer!

esteef

I can level with that.

[esteef 2,679]

I can level with that.

Funny thing is this is where most of us are on this subject until somebody shows up and blurts out "Enforcers are useless!" or "Euros are *******!" then the whole thing starts again.

See ya next enforcer thread!

esteef

[sputman 1,268]

enforcers are worthless euro *******!