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Wings Have To Toughen Up Soon


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#81 newfy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:35 PM

This statement is right on. "Grit" is a more sustained and much more valuable thing. It goes along with heart, drive and timing. Ideally, every player plays this way throughout the game. I think that's why even as a puck-possession team, our guys (mostly) do NOT give up the puck even when they're pounded on. And when they do dig in the corners and do whatEVER's necessary to hang on to the puck, they are such fun to watch. Cleary's another example of this. He will not give up; he won't back off even if he's NOT a fighter.

Yeah but do you see those guys on our team right now that dig in corners intimidating anyone with their digging?!

No, you can argue definitions all you want but Detroit doesn't have that guy who can go out there on forward and really change momentum with a big hit game in and game out. Helm and Abby can hit, but they dont really do it that often. Having a guy like Clutterbuck would really help this team, he swings the momentum of games because he is always hitting everything that moves and it does make the defence want to give up the puck earlier.

Eaves is a very good bottom line guy but he doesn't hit hard really, Miller does nothing of note out there, Helm and Abby hit on occasion when they feel like it and Cleary can throw his weight a bit too. But Detroit lacks that one guy who is a heat seeking missile out there looking to crush anything that moves, these players really get the other teams defence worrying when they are on the ice.

Digging in the corners is great and we can argue the definition of grit, but are you really that dense to say that digging in corners is as gritty as a guy who does dig in corners AND throws big hits and will scrap on occasion? Detroit fans are used to sitting here and saying oh our team can take alot of hitting and cheap stuff against us so we're tough. Why not be able to do that AND dish it out?

I swear there are a lot on this website that started watching the wings when they became very European right around the lock out and if the wings adopted a different style of play they would not be fans anymore...

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#82 HankthaTank

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:39 PM

Why do people hate Miller so much? I feel like it's "the thing to do" to hate on him. He has actually been reasonably useful this year.

( Posted Image That just makes it worse I am sure but oh well just calling it like I feel like I have seen it thus far)
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#83 Theophany

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:49 PM

Helm and Abby can hit, but they dont really do it that often.

Blatantly false. Abdelkader is 43rd in the leauge (tied with Getzlaf and Jannik Hansen) with 105 hits.

Zdeno Chara has less hits than Abdekader in nine more games played, for the love of God.

#84 Konnan511

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:54 PM

Yeah but do you see those guys on our team right now that dig in corners intimidating anyone with their digging?!

No, you can argue definitions all you want but Detroit doesn't have that guy who can go out there on forward and really change momentum with a big hit game in and game out. Helm and Abby can hit, but they dont really do it that often. Having a guy like Clutterbuck would really help this team, he swings the momentum of games because he is always hitting everything that moves and it does make the defence want to give up the puck earlier.

Eaves is a very good bottom line guy but he doesn't hit hard really, Miller does nothing of note out there, Helm and Abby hit on occasion when they feel like it and Cleary can throw his weight a bit too. But Detroit lacks that one guy who is a heat seeking missile out there looking to crush anything that moves, these players really get the other teams defence worrying when they are on the ice.

Digging in the corners is great and we can argue the definition of grit, but are you really that dense to say that digging in corners is as gritty as a guy who does dig in corners AND throws big hits and will scrap on occasion? Detroit fans are used to sitting here and saying oh our team can take alot of hitting and cheap stuff against us so we're tough. Why not be able to do that AND dish it out?

I swear there are a lot on this website that started watching the wings when they became very European right around the lock out and if the wings adopted a different style of play they would not be fans anymore...

The game changed and so did the Wings. That's why we stay on top.

Also I hate to break it to you, there are more and more Europeans being brought to the NHL. Less Russians, but an influx of Swedes and Fins. It's only a matter of time before the "guys who can take a punch from Orr" are gone form the game.

Dallas Drake was a special player. Look at his age, though, he was near the last of a dying breed. There are maybe only a handful of guys in the league that fight and score on a regular basis.

The only person on the Wings I'd replace with a guy who makes the same as him, or slightly more, would be Miller. i think Miller is highly replaceable, but as I've stated before is that our 3rd and 4th lines are the best in the NHL. Why would you want to change that?

And there is no such thing as an intimidating "corner digger". Wings have two of the more devastating open ice hitters in the league. Picky picky.
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#85 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:16 PM

Why do people hate Miller so much? I feel like it's "the thing to do" to hate on him. He has actually been reasonably useful this year.

( Posted Image That just makes it worse I am sure but oh well just calling it like I feel like I have seen it thus far)

I usually use him as an example because he is redundant (and not under a LT contract). Miller is a good player but it probably comes off that I don't think that. He PK's well and is a solid 4th liner (better than most). However, Eaves, Draper, Helm, and Abby can all do most of what Miller does and more. Therefore, while Miller isn't bad by any measure, he is an easy player to suggest people in place of.

I have him on my fantasy watch list, of course i follow his stats, he only has 1 goal and 5 assists, -8, 30 sog, 10 min toi
Miller: 3 g 8 a +2 11:30 toi, 45 sog

all konopka can do is fight, he doesn't have many big hits and certainly no game changers, so he isn't useless but damn near

adn i have watched at least 20 games of each team this year and last, unless you are a raging fan of either team i doubt you have watched many more

Konopka plays with Gillies and Martin most of the time. Gillies is the type of enforcer that most here don't want, and Martin is a decent fourth liner IMO. However, you cannot tell me that with Helm and Eaves on his line that Konopka would not produce more than he is now.

#86 sputman

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:16 PM

Don't these faces just scream intimidation and toughness? :D

Posted Image


Posted Image
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#87 HankthaTank

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:20 PM

However, you cannot tell me that with Helm and Eaves on his line that Konopka would not produce more than he is now.

This. I would say that he was the one guy I was really hoping the Wings would take a shot at. I fully realized it was a pipe dream, but the type of toughness, faceoff ability, and decent enough skill he could supply on the 4th would have been a very welcomed sight, imo.
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#88 newfy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:27 PM

Yeah konnan the game did change but not to the point where HITTING and forechecking is gone, drake in his year with the wings did not hardly score at all, but he had a niche noone else could fill and did it great. The only thing the wings changed is they don't carry a full time enforcer (except in years they win the cup ;) ) but that does not have anything to do with getting a guy like drake in the bottom 6. Drake was not really rare or special at all when he played with the wings, players of his ilk really step up come playoff time, miller did nothing last year during the playoffs

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#89 Vladifan

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:54 PM

Yeah but do you see those guys on our team right now that dig in corners intimidating anyone with their digging?!

No, you can argue definitions all you want but Detroit doesn't have that guy who can go out there on forward and really change momentum with a big hit game in and game out. Helm and Abby can hit, but they dont really do it that often. Having a guy like Clutterbuck would really help this team, he swings the momentum of games because he is always hitting everything that moves and it does make the defence want to give up the puck earlier.

Eaves is a very good bottom line guy but he doesn't hit hard really, Miller does nothing of note out there, Helm and Abby hit on occasion when they feel like it and Cleary can throw his weight a bit too. But Detroit lacks that one guy who is a heat seeking missile out there looking to crush anything that moves, these players really get the other teams defence worrying when they are on the ice.

Digging in the corners is great and we can argue the definition of grit, but are you really that dense to say that digging in corners is as gritty as a guy who does dig in corners AND throws big hits and will scrap on occasion? Detroit fans are used to sitting here and saying oh our team can take alot of hitting and cheap stuff against us so we're tough. Why not be able to do that AND dish it out?

I swear there are a lot on this website that started watching the wings when they became very European right around the lock out and if the wings adopted a different style of play they would not be fans anymore...



Just because I didn't specifically mention throwing hits and the willingness to scrap doesn't mean I don't think that's a part of "grit". Are you so brilliant and all-seeing that you need to pick and choose what you think I mean? ANY sustained, aggressive and legal action is fine by me. Does that help?

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#90 titanium2

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:07 PM

Basically, we need another Dallas Drake.


Move Abdelkader to wing on a more permanent basis and we might see shades of Dallas Drake.

#91 newfy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:13 PM

Just because I didn't specifically mention throwing hits and the willingness to scrap doesn't mean I don't think that's a part of "grit". Are you so brilliant and all-seeing that you need to pick and choose what you think I mean? ANY sustained, aggressive and legal action is fine by me. Does that help?

Well when you basically have an entire post defining what grit is and dont mention anything about hitting or fighting, its pretty easy to confuse what your definition is...

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#92 Vladifan

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:56 PM

Well when you basically have an entire post defining what grit is and dont mention anything about hitting or fighting, its pretty easy to confuse what your definition is...


Let me say this about that. When a hockey player is willing to dig in the corners I'm guessing he'd damn well better be ready to at least knock the other guy out of position and take him on if he has to. And since there ARE no corners, he'd better be ready to fight to keep his position and to retain or retrieve the puck. Point is, the Wings don't take as many stupid penalties as other teams because they know when to back off to stay on the ice.

You talked about having one guy on a team being willing to hit and/or fight. I call that unrealistic because that one guy is not going to play more than 20 minutes. If you think I'm wrong about being unrealistic, I honestly don't follow other teamns that closely so I'd like you to name me at least two teams who have one really good fighter/enforcer (who doesn't spend a whole lot of time in the penalty box?) who actually helps his team. I mean, to the point where they are competitive in the standings, partly because of what he does.

"He even ate with women who at that time were accorded the same status as the family donkey. Are we willing to break bread with, say, child sex slaves, transgender teens and undocumented workers? Because when Jesus comes back to Earth, that's where he'll be hanging."
You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.

 
 
 


#93 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:20 PM

Let me say this about that. When a hockey player is willing to dig in the corners I'm guessing he'd damn well better be ready to at least knock the other guy out of position and take him on if he has to. And since there ARE no corners, he'd better be ready to fight to keep his position and to retain or retrieve the puck. Point is, the Wings don't take as many stupid penalties as other teams because they know when to back off to stay on the ice.

You talked about having one guy on a team being willing to hit and/or fight. I call that unrealistic because that one guy is not going to play more than 20 minutes. If you think I'm wrong about being unrealistic, I honestly don't follow other teamns that closely so I'd like you to name me at least two teams who have one really good fighter/enforcer (who doesn't spend a whole lot of time in the penalty box?) who actually helps his team. I mean, to the point where they are competitive in the standings, partly because of what he does.

Plenty of teams have enforcers who are decent point producers. Neil and Prust are two of them. Beyond that, I'm not sure how you can measure helping a team. From 24/7 it's obvious Bylsma (sp? on my phone) thinks a fight brings something unmeasurable- he gave Engelland a higher rating because of a fight. Also, the Flyers carry Shelley almost every game and still are in first in the East. The Blues carry a few fighters and they do well. Pens always have at least two of of Engelland, Godard, Rupp, and Asham dressed. For the fighters not producing points, I'm not sure the difference is measurable. However, these are not the enforcers being advocated here.

#94 RedFlag85

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:28 PM

I had hoped Big E would develop the mean streak he showed occasionally in the AHL.

Being somewhat of an amateur military history buff, the argument of Enforcers being a dying breed, or obsolete reminds me of the issue of air superiority during the Vietnam war.

Let's try this analogy:

During the late 50s- early 60s, "experts" deemed an air to air cannon was obsolete, with missiles being the wave of the future. Dog fights were declared dead. The future would be interceptors engaging bombers from long range with missiles Fighters like the F-4 Phantom thus were built without an internal cannon and relied solely on AA missiles.

When the Vietnam war broke out the US found itself fighting lightweight cannon equipped MiGs in close range dogfights. Missiles were unreliable at this range. The win/loss ratio was close to 1/1. An unacceptable the statistic for world's most powerful military. Later, cannon pods were added to F-4's and tactics employed during the Korean war were updated and employed by pilots, dramatically increasing the win/loss ratio in the air in favor of the Americans.

What I'm trying to get at is as soon as you declare something "dead" or "obsolete" and cut it out of your program, that's exactly what your opponent will try and utilize against you.

Edited by RedFlag85, 25 January 2011 - 08:54 PM.


#95 Kp-Wings

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:48 PM

or....
Posted Image

Hah! Don't make me laugh.

Sorry, but big does not = tough. At no point, other than the occasional rare fight, have I seen Ericsson display a true mean streak. I'd say he's about as intimidating as Eric Daze.

#96 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:07 PM

The game changed and so did the Wings. That's why we stay on top.

Also I hate to break it to you, there are more and more Europeans being brought to the NHL. Less Russians, but an influx of Swedes and Fins. It's only a matter of time before the "guys who can take a punch from Orr" are gone form the game.

Dallas Drake was a special player. Look at his age, though, he was near the last of a dying breed. There are maybe only a handful of guys in the league that fight and score on a regular basis.

The only person on the Wings I'd replace with a guy who makes the same as him, or slightly more, would be Miller. i think Miller is highly replaceable, but as I've stated before is that our 3rd and 4th lines are the best in the NHL. Why would you want to change that?

And there is no such thing as an intimidating "corner digger". Wings have two of the more devastating open ice hitters in the league. Picky picky.

Come on now, Konnan. There is a surplus of players that can throw their weight around and put up points.

*Raffi Torres-21 Points
*Brandon Prust-18 Points
*Gregory Campbell-18 Points
*Jason Chimera-17 Points
*Matt Hendricks-15 Points
*Chris Thorburn-15 Points
*Shawn Thornton-12 Points
*David Clarkson-12 Points
*Brad Winchester-12 Points
*Chris Neil-11 Points
*B.J. Crombeen-10 Points

I can keep going if need be...

Point is, there are plenty of bottom 6 guys that can take a regular shift and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. I specifically remember wanting Kenny to sign Matt Hendricks to a league minimum contract over the summer, and I was laughed at.
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#97 HankthaTank

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:11 PM

Hah! Don't make me laugh.

Sorry, but big does not = tough. At no point, other than the occasional rare fight, have I seen Ericsson display a true mean streak. I'd say he's about as intimidating as Eric Daze.

I hope it did because it was meant to be a joke there, slick Posted Image

Damn sarcasm font is always off.

*Matt Hendricks-15 Points
*Chris Thorburn-15 Points
*Shawn Thornton-12 Points
*David Clarkson-12 Points
*Brad Winchester-12 Points
*Chris Neil-11 Points
*B.J. Crombeen-10 Points

ALL have less points than Hudler. Posted Image
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#98 Buppy

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:17 PM

Something to note in regards to the 'replace Miller with a fighter' sentiment that's so popular around here. When this team is healthy, Miller is in the pressbox. No one helps the team from that position, so to me it seems pretty pointless to worry so much about the bottom of the bench.

Guys like Miller and Mursak are great bench players. Cheap and capable of contributing in a lot of different situations or roles, even if not at a very high level; but at the same time, you're not really missing anything when they're not in the lineup.

Makes more sense to me to either aim higher and replace someone like Hudler or Flip with someone like Ott, Clutterbuck, Ruutu, Brown, Boyle or even Neil looked decent when Ottawa was good. Granted some may have bad contracts and or be too hard to get, but the principle remains. Or alternately, and probably better, replace someone like Bert, Modano, or even Hudler with someone like Konopka and use the money savings to upgrade someone else to compensate. Bottom pair defensemen also make a good spot to insert these types of guys.

#99 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:28 PM

I hope it did because it was meant to be a joke there, slick Posted Image

Damn sarcasm font is always off.


ALL have less points than Hudler. Posted Image

All play half the minutes Hudler does. :ph34r:
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#100 HankthaTank

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:31 PM

All play half the minutes Hudler does. :ph34r:

You weren't kidding though Posted Image
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