Shades of Fedorov?

[Broken 16 381]

i appreciate the thread and your attempt to stir up conversation. i am not sure i 100% agree with you, but definitely understand where you are coming from.

federov and franzen are both guys that can look like they want to be anywhere other than on the ice. whether or not they really are being lazy or apathetic is kind of irrelevant. because as fans 99.9999% of the time, we will never know if a player if going 100%. but we certainly have our perceptions. and you are saying you get the same perception watching them and the same frustration. i can definitely see the comparison.

just wanted to give some support as everyone on here is so negative and hateful.

Thank you sir. I'm actually catching a LOT LESS flamage than I expected. Fedorov topics are dicey at best around these parts.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

now there's a debate! I believe with 100%, that if Fedorov was a defenseman (FULLTIME) and still had all the two way dominating talent that he possessed while here, HE would be the one with all the Norris' and he would be considered better than Lidstrom. He wold also be rivaling Orr, if not have passed him up in Norris Trophy's.

Well yeah, definitely Feds could possibly be one of the greatest defenseman all time had he played it more. With Nick having to play a more shutdown role on defense I am not sure the points thing holds a whole lot of water yet there is a lot of truth to what you are saying in this above post. But maybe this is the particular thread that should be brought up.... Who has/had the most RAW talent to ever wear the winged wheel. To me, it truly is between Nick and Sergei in the history but I wasn't around during 30's-late 80's so would be a tad tough for me to really say it's just those 2. Would be tough to find 2 more all-around talented players than them though.

Edited February 4, 2011 by HankthaTank

[Konnan511 1,736]

If I was starting a team and could have either player in their prime (meaning before the concussions set it), I'd take Lindros. Fedorov never had to carry the Wings.

Still, to answer what eva said about Fedorov, and what I posted in the above thread, Bobby Orr is the most complete, perfect player in NHL history. Lindros just jumped into my mind first, but then I immediately thought of Bobby Orr.

Fedorov was back at it again, showing his incredible talents in the playoffs in the Stanley Cup run of 2002, when he took up the slack while Yzerman missed most of the second half of the season and basically played on one leg for most of the playoffs. Yzerman privately sought out Sergei in the aftermath of the Cup celebration and told Fedorov how proud he was of him for taking over when the team needed him the most.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Also taking nothing away from Franzen's performance last night, 5 goals in one game is a great accomplishment. BUT (there's always a but) looking back over the highlights of Fedorov's 5 goal game, none were on a 5on3 powerplay and there was no empty net goal. Man, watching that video, I miss Sergei... We were truly blessed having him here in Detroit...

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Nevermind the Russian broadcast, just mute lol...

vs.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Well yeah, definitely Feds could possibly be one of the greatest defenseman all time had he played it more. With Nick having to play a more shutdown role on defense I am not sure the points thing holds a whole lot of water yet there is a lot of truth to what you are saying in this above post. But maybe this is the particular thread that should be brought up.... Who has/had the most RAW talent to ever wear the winged wheel. To me, it truly is between Nick and Sergei in the history but I wasn't around during 30's-late 80's so would be a tad tough for me to really say it's just those 2. Would be tough to find 2 more all-around talented players than them though.

Well, honestly, I do believe that Fedorov was the greatest modern day Red Wing of all time, BUT watching Steve Yzerman play in the mid to late 80's, before Fedorov showed up, its hard to not put Steve in that raw talent category. If Steve didn't have the misfortune of playing his best offensive days while with a couple other guys in league (not sure, but I think they were called Gretzky and Lemieux) Yzerman EASILY would have won a few Hart trophies during that time. Top 5 Red Wings of all time are Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Howe & Delvecchio. (not necessarily in that order) Don't look now, though, Pavel Datsyuk in currently 9th all time in Red Wings scoring with 631 points with three years left on this current contract, he will probably pass Feds up in points if he re-signs and remains a Red Wing for his entire career. I don't think he'll catch Yzerman or Howe, but he may pass Lidstrom up too, and then in ten years our debate will be who was better, Feds or Dats...

[eva unit zero 271]

I made a mistake. I should have put a picture of Bobby Orr up. He was a perfect player that could do anything on the ice on either side of the ice. He's the closest anyone has been to a perfect player, at least by looking at the description you just wrote down of Fedorov.

As for Lindros, he was a bigger force in front of the net than Fedorov, and one of the best hitters in league history. He was a beast to play against night after night, unlike Fedorov, who often took nights off as others have said. Lindros was also great at faceoffs and a very good fighter. For a guy that size to have that kind of skill set and aggressiveness, is unprecedented. Physicality and hitting was just never a part of Fedorov's game.

Lindros could run over you or go around you.

Lindros was definitely a great hitter, something he has over Fedorov. But Fedorov was a good hitter, and very underrated in that department. He was not a dominating physical player in the Lindros sense, but he definitely could play the physical game and could hit well; IMHO he was better at the physical game than Orr.

Honestly I think the completeness of Orr's game is heavily overrated. While he was a great player, he was not nearly as perfect or complete as he is credited with being. And when they started tracking 'hits' as a stat, Fedorov was hitting as much as Shanahan, Simon, or Domi. Hardly can say he wasn't physical with that kind of company.

He wasn't as aggressive physically and wasn't a fighter like those guys, but he certainly played a physical game. Much in the same vein as Mario Lemieux, he would either take the puck around you or he would take it through you.

Top 5 Red Wings of all time are Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Howe & Sawchuk

Fixed.

[Broken 16 381]

Well yeah, definitely Feds could possibly be one of the greatest defenseman all time had he played it more. With Nick having to play a more shutdown role on defense I am not sure the points thing holds a whole lot of water yet there is a lot of truth to what you are saying in this above post. But maybe this is the particular thread that should be brought up.... Who has/had the most RAW talent to ever wear the winged wheel. To me, it truly is between Nick and Sergei in the history but I wasn't around during 30's-late 80's so would be a tad tough for me to really say it's just those 2. Would be tough to find 2 more all-around talented players than them though.

Those two come to mind. I'm tempted to throw Vladdy into the mix of raw talent but he was more of a throwback talent, but god he was sick.

Lidstrom is like Fedorov's opposite. Fedorov had raw talent that was nearly unrivaled, but a weaker will. Seemed easier to distract. Sometimes got carried away and tried to do it all by himself. Lidstrom on the other hand, seems to rely more on a superior intellect. Makes zero mistakes. Is rock steady on and off the ice and is much more of a role model type player.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Those two come to mind. I'm tempted to throw Vladdy into the mix of raw talent but he was more of a throwback talent, but god he was sick.

Lidstrom is like Fedorov's opposite. Fedorov had raw talent that was nearly unrivaled, but a weaker will. Seemed easier to distract. Sometimes got carried away and tried to do it all by himself. Lidstrom on the other hand, seems to rely more on a superior intellect. Makes zero mistakes. Is rock steady on and off the ice and is much more of a role model type player.

Watching the old videos, and especially recently replaying the March 26, 1997 Wings-Avs game, Nick's talent out there at just about everything is just mind-boggling. But when Sergei was out there, he was flat-out the best player on the ice. It was sickening how he would just blow by everyone. Nick's intelligence, quickness to the puck and to make the right decision, shot, and lead passes are probably the very best. Raw talent has many definitions but damn it, they were both great. Pav will definitely be on that list when its all said and done, I am confident in that one.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

I must add, that Sergei was definitely my favorite player growing up in the 90's. His game was just the most noticeable on the ice. The end to end playmaking ability that he had was just jaw-dropping. Had the white, Fedorov Nike skates, the Nike stick he had and the Fedorov jersey. It was amazing how he just made literally everything seem like it required zero effort. Once he left, Nick became my favorite. They just had my favorite type of skills. Just effortless and smooth as silk. I have grown to appreciate more and more what we have had a chance to see back then and just cherish every moment #5 is on the ice for us. It is something most Wings fans have to just sit back and think about one day. I know as an old man, I will just be able to marvel at what we had the chance to watch. Stevie, Sergei, Lids, Pav, Hank, Vladdy, Igor. Just a humbling thing.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

I must add, that Sergei was definitely my favorite player growing up in the 90's. His game was just the most noticeable on the ice. The end to end playmaking ability that he had was just jaw-dropping. Had the white, Fedorov Nike skates, the Nike stick he had and the Fedorov jersey. It was amazing how he just made literally everything seem like it required zero effort. Once he left, Nick became my favorite. They just had my favorite type of skills. Just effortless and smooth as silk. I have grown to appreciate more and more what we have had a chance to see back then and just cherish every moment #5 is on the ice for us. It is something most Wings fans have to just sit back and think about one day. I know as an old man, I will just be able to marvel at what we had the chance to watch. Stevie, Sergei, Lids, Pav, Hank, Vladdy, Igor. Just a humbling thing.

and for those of us that suffered thru the early 80's and all the playoff disappointments of the late 80's - early 90's.... WOW! What a run! No wonder every other hockey city in the NHL hates us! SucK it Trebek!

[Broken 16 381]

I must add, that Sergei was definitely my favorite player growing up in the 90's. His game was just the most noticeable on the ice. The end to end playmaking ability that he had was just jaw-dropping. Had the white, Fedorov Nike skates, the Nike stick he had and the Fedorov jersey. It was amazing how he just made literally everything seem like it required zero effort. Once he left, Nick became my favorite. They just had my favorite type of skills. Just effortless and smooth as silk. I have grown to appreciate more and more what we have had a chance to see back then and just cherish every moment #5 is on the ice for us. It is something most Wings fans have to just sit back and think about one day. I know as an old man, I will just be able to marvel at what we had the chance to watch. Stevie, Sergei, Lids, Pav, Hank, Vladdy, Igor. Just a humbling thing.

It was great having all those guys on the team, but it was an honor to have Fetisov on the team and part of the Russian Five. That guy is Russian royalty for gods sake.

Funny unrelated story, met Fetisov at the Westin in Toronto after he left the Wings. Devils were in town for Hockey Night.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Broken 16

[Konnan511 1,736]

It was great having all those guys on the team, but it was an honor to have Fetisov on the team and part of the Russian Five. That guy is Russian royalty for gods sake.

Funny unrelated story, met Fetisov at the Westin in Toronto after he left the Wings. Devils were in town for Hockey Night.

Not on the same scale, but Larionov on the Wings was something else too.

Roughly the same vein, being blessed by all the Swedes this past decade has truly been a blessing as well.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Not on the same scale, but Larionov on the Wings was something else too.

Roughly the same vein, being blessed by all the Swedes this past decade has truly been a blessing as well.

at how this thread has gotten way off topic! BUT to keep it off topic, put the Russian 5 up against Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Lidstrom - Kronwall. I think the Russians would prevail.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

[/size][/font]

Nobody carried that 2002 team.

Too much team talent to credit Fedorov with carrying the team, although he was the best offensive player which I'm guessing is what Yzerman meant. We had Hasek that year and two defensemen which were nominated for the Norris in Lidstrom and Chelios. We could have won on defense alone.

I just made the point that Lindros was captain and was by far the best player on that team. He had to carry the Flyers. And yes, I think Leclair was overrated.

Lindros was definitely a great hitter, something he has over Fedorov. But Fedorov was a good hitter, and very underrated in that department. He was not a dominating physical player in the Lindros sense, but he definitely could play the physical game and could hit well; IMHO he was better at the physical game than Orr.

Honestly I think the completeness of Orr's game is heavily overrated. While he was a great player, he was not nearly as perfect or complete as he is credited with being. And when they started tracking 'hits' as a stat, Fedorov was hitting as much as Shanahan, Simon, or Domi. Hardly can say he wasn't physical with that kind of company.

He wasn't as aggressive physically and wasn't a fighter like those guys, but he certainly played a physical game. Much in the same vein as Mario Lemieux, he would either take the puck around you or he would take it through you.

Fixed.

If Fedorov was hitting more than Simon or Domi (I doubt if that's true), it would only be because he played twice as many minutes as those guys. Hence more hits. He was never a good forechecker or hitter, especially when he was playing lazy from time to time. Nobody feared Fedorov as a hitter in the least way, as opposed to say Forsberg, who could knock the biggest players down from time to time with a hit.

Also, no way he was more physical than Orr, who was known as a guy that could drop the gloves and lay a good bodycheck from time to time. Orr is not overrated, unless all his peers are just massive liers who overrate him everytime they rave about how great he was at everything.

Edited February 4, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[Konnan511 1,736]

Nobody carried that 2002 team.

Too much team talent to credit Fedorov with carrying the team, although he was the best offensive player which I'm guessing is what Yzerman meant. We had Hasek that year and two defensemen which were nominated for the Norris in Lidstrom and Chelios. We could have won on defense alone.

I just made the point that Lindros was captain and was by far the best player on that team. He had to carry the Flyers. And yes, I think Leclair was overrated.

So Yzerman thanks Fedorov for carrying the team in the playoffs...and you say he's getting too much credit. I'll take Yzerman's admiration, over your bias, any day of the week.

at how this thread has gotten way off topic! BUT to keep it off topic, put the Russian 5 up against Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Lidstrom - Kronwall. I think the Russians would prevail.

Hey now, I tried connecting the two!!!

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

So Yzerman thanks Fedorov for carrying the team in the playoffs...and you say he's getting too much credit. I'll take Yzerman's admiration, over your bias, any day of the week.

Hey now, I tried connecting the two!!!

You're a big hypocrite if you're calling me biased on this topic. I'm actually trying to be objective.

If you think he carried the team, than you're giving him too much credit. The 2003 Ducks with Giguere are an example of a player carrying that team. Fedorov didn't carry the 2002 Wings. No one player carried that team. He wasn't even our best player in the playoffs, which is why he didn't win the Smythe.

Edited February 4, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[Konnan511 1,736]

You're a big hypocrite if you're calling me biased on this topic. I'm actually trying to be objective.

If you think he carried the team, than you're giving him too much credit. The 2003 Ducks with Giguere are an example of a player carrying that team. Fedorov didn't carry the 2002 Wings. No one player carried that team. He wasn't even our best player in the playoffs, which is why he didn't win the Smythe.

Either you're dense...or dense. YZERMAN SAID IT. YZERMAN SAID IT. YZERMAN SAID IT.

Also, being a hypocrite doesn't invalidate my argument. Rule 23 of Fallacies. People who smoke that tell people not to smoke may be hypocrites, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Either you're dense...or dense. YZERMAN SAID IT. YZERMAN SAID IT. YZERMAN SAID IT.

Also, being a hypocrite doesn't invalidate my argument. Rule 23 of Fallacies. People who smoke that tell people not to smoke may be hypocrites, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.

So Yzerman said it. He was overjoyed and felt proud that Sergei played well in those playoffs, which he did. He was probably our best forward in those playoffs behind Yzerman. Stevie has always been unselfish, so he gave Sergei a little too much credit.

The fact that Yzerman said it doesn't mean Fedorov carried us in the 2002 playoffs on his shoulders. It's just a captain giving his linemate a lot of credit for playing well. Get over it.

Edited February 4, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[Konnan511 1,736]

So Yzerman said it. He was overjoyed and felt proud that Sergei played well in those playoffs, which he did. He was probably our best forward in those playoffs behind Yzerman. Stevie has always been unselfish, so he gave Sergei a little too much credit.

The fact that Yzerman said it doesn't mean Fedorov carried us in the 2002 playoffs on his shoulders. It's just a captain giving his linemate a lot of credit for playing well. Get over it.

edit: Not even worth it lol

Edited February 4, 2011 by Konnan511

[St. Michael (the Red Wing) 422]

Fedorov was way more of to a 2 way player when being compared to Franzen. Both could/can score otherwise I don't really see the comparison. Two different players that have worn or are wearing the Winged Wheel...

Edited February 4, 2011 by St. Michael (the Red Wing)

[Shady Ultima 40]

Top 5 Red Wings of all time are Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Howe & Delvecchio.

I think Sawchuck deserves to be in there, for sure.

I wish I could remember Federov in his prime, I started watching the Wings a LOT around 2001, and he was only there for the next two seasons.

[eva unit zero 271]

at how this thread has gotten way off topic! BUT to keep it off topic, put the Russian 5 up against Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Lidstrom - Kronwall. I think the Russians would prevail.

Let's take a look at Russians vs. Swedes.

Larionov vs. Zetterberg - Z holds the clear advantage, as the better player in most respects.

Fedorov vs. Franzen - Fedorov is obviously the better player, being that he is better than Franzen at even Franzen's best talent.

Kozlov vs. Holmstrom - Slava has been a much more prolific scorer than Homer over their careers, and is a more versatile offensive player with better two-way skills.

Konstantinov vs. Kronwall - Vladdie is clearly the choice for the punishing defensive defenseman with puck talents.

Fetisov vs. Lidstrom - Fetisov was 40 when the Wings won the 1998 Cup, Lidstrom is 40 now. One of them is a Norris trophy favorite, the other was a solid top-four defenseman.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Let's take a look at Russians vs. Swedes.

Larionov vs. Zetterberg - Z holds the clear advantage, as the better player in most respects.

Fedorov vs. Franzen - Fedorov is obviously the better player, being that he is better than Franzen at even Franzen's best talent.

Kozlov vs. Holmstrom - Slava has been a much more prolific scorer than Homer over their careers, and is a more versatile offensive player with better two-way skills.

Konstantinov vs. Kronwall - Vladdie is clearly the choice for the punishing defensive defenseman with puck talents.

Fetisov vs. Lidstrom - Fetisov was 40 when the Wings won the 1998 Cup, Lidstrom is 40 now. One of them is a Norris trophy favorite, the other was a solid top-four defenseman.

False. Larionov dominated Russia before coming to the NHL. Larionov was also one of the smartest players to ever play the game. I love Zetterberg, but Larionov was the better player.

[eva unit zero 271]

False. Larionov dominated Russia before coming to the NHL. Larionov was also one of the smartest players to ever play the game. I love Zetterberg, but Larionov was the better player.

Who the f*** is talking about Russia?

We're talking about the Russian Five vs the Swedish Five. One would assume that would mean the current Swedes vs. the Russian Five circa 1997. Larionov was not better in 1997 than Zetterberg is now. Not even close.