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Russian player name transcriptions to change, will NHL follow?


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#1 edicius

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:22 AM

Interesting read.

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#2 Din758

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:19 PM

Thats going to be real tough for the english speaking fans. I understand how they would want to have their names presented in the correct way, but when the vast majority of the teams income come from english speaking fans, we have to be able to read the names. It would take nothing short of learning the russian alphabet to figure out who these guys are if they were to change them. This would create a serious disconnect between players (especially new ones) and the fans. Just take a look at that Ovi pic...

English is legally the primary language in the US and Canada, lets keep it that way folks.

And yes I understand that nowadays its very possible that the majority speaks spanish. (I could be wrong on that)
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#3 sputman

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:35 PM

Дatcyk.

datsyuk.

why not just call him dotsook, or the phonetic datsuk?
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#4 MulesWillFly93

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:35 PM

Thats going to be real tough for the english speaking fans. I understand how they would want to have their names presented in the correct way, but when the vast majority of the teams income come from english speaking fans, we have to be able to read the names. It would take nothing short of learning the russian alphabet to figure out who these guys are if they were to change them. This would create a serious disconnect between players (especially new ones) and the fans. Just take a look at that Ovi pic...

English is legally the primary language in the US and Canada, lets keep it that way folks.

And yes I understand that nowadays its very possible that the majority speaks spanish. (I could be wrong on that)


Actually, I don't think this article is talking about putting Russian names in Russian letters; I think they're just talking about changing the Latin (English) spellings to better reflect the right pronunciation. For example, Fedorov would become Fyodorov, not Фёдоров. I think this is a good idea. The only thing that really sticks out to me as wrong are the pronunciation of three letters in particular:

e = "yeh," not "eh" (I'm talking about a short "e" sound, here, like in "pet," not Canadian "eh," just to be clear)
ё = "yo" (Looks pretty darn similar to an e, right, but makes a completely different sound. Hence, Fyodorov, not Fedorov)
o = "oh" (as in "poke") when it's in the stressed syllable, somewhere between "uh" and "ah" when it's not (Ovechkin = uh-VYETCH-kin)

I like the IIHF's transcription. It gets as close as possible without being totally confusing. For instance, the two letters that don't make any sound (although they do change the sound of the letter before them) are just left out completely, and I think that's a good move since they don't make that much difference in the word. It's close enough without making the announcers take Russian lessons.

Now, the other thing that this does not address is that they need to get the stress on the right syllable of the name (like var-LA-mov instead of VAR-la-mov). There are no rules about where the stress falls on words in Russian, so if you haven't grown up speaking it, it's hard to know where the accent is. In my textbooks, they put a mark over the syllable that gets the stress so we poor students can figure it out...maybe the NHL could do something similar, too (I mean on the announcers' guide sheets, not on the jerseys).

Дatcyk.

datsyuk.

why not just call him dotsook, or the phonetic datsuk?


Actually, it's:

Дацюк

Basically, what you've got going on here is D-a-ts-yu-k.

ц - this letter makes a "ts" sound. I don't know why that sound needs its own letter when they have corresponding T and S letters too, but that's how it is.
ю - this letter makes a "yoo" sound. If you were to use the Russian letter "y," that would only make an "oo" sound.

Also, the accent is on the second syllable. Hence, the correct pronuncation should be dat-SYOOK, not DAT-sook.

Edited by MulesWillFly93, 10 February 2011 - 01:48 PM.

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#5 Wingzman91

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:49 PM

I was against the name change, till i read Semyon Varlamov's name was being spelled Semen. Now thats funny.

#6 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:51 PM

Many Wings fans still don't know how to spell Sergei Fedorov's name. I'm not sure what to expect if it changes again. Maybe they will get it right this time.
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#7 Din758

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 03:13 PM

Actually, I don't think this article is talking about putting Russian names in Russian letters; I think they're just talking about changing the Latin (English) spellings to better reflect the right pronunciation. For example, Fedorov would become Fyodorov, not Фёдоров. I think this is a good idea.


ok that makes much more sense.

just think, next season all of you fans that love your russian players might have to buy some new jerseys. im sure the nhl is loving that idea...
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#8 sleepwalker

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 04:02 PM

ok that makes much more sense.

just think, next season all of you fans that love your russian players might have to buy some new jerseys. im sure the nhl is loving that idea...


Your sig line made me crack up.

At first I didn't realize it was your sig line, and thought you just randomly added it at the end of the post... :lol:

#9 sputman

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:09 PM

Actually, I don't think this article is talking about putting Russian names in Russian letters; I think they're just talking about changing the Latin (English) spellings to better reflect the right pronunciation. For example, Fedorov would become Fyodorov, not Фёдоров. I think this is a good idea. The only thing that really sticks out to me as wrong are the pronunciation of three letters in particular:

e = "yeh," not "eh" (I'm talking about a short "e" sound, here, like in "pet," not Canadian "eh," just to be clear)
ё = "yo" (Looks pretty darn similar to an e, right, but makes a completely different sound. Hence, Fyodorov, not Fedorov)
o = "oh" (as in "poke") when it's in the stressed syllable, somewhere between "uh" and "ah" when it's not (Ovechkin = uh-VYETCH-kin)

I like the IIHF's transcription. It gets as close as possible without being totally confusing. For instance, the two letters that don't make any sound (although they do change the sound of the letter before them) are just left out completely, and I think that's a good move since they don't make that much difference in the word. It's close enough without making the announcers take Russian lessons.

Now, the other thing that this does not address is that they need to get the stress on the right syllable of the name (like var-LA-mov instead of VAR-la-mov). There are no rules about where the stress falls on words in Russian, so if you haven't grown up speaking it, it's hard to know where the accent is. In my textbooks, they put a mark over the syllable that gets the stress so we poor students can figure it out...maybe the NHL could do something similar, too (I mean on the announcers' guide sheets, not on the jerseys).



Actually, it's:

Дацюк

Basically, what you've got going on here is D-a-ts-yu-k.

ц - this letter makes a "ts" sound. I don't know why that sound needs its own letter when they have corresponding T and S letters too, but that's how it is.
ю - this letter makes a "yoo" sound. If you were to use the Russian letter "y," that would only make an "oo" sound.

Also, the accent is on the second syllable. Hence, the correct pronuncation should be dat-SYOOK, not DAT-sook.


i like it! looks cool. get it done, kenny!

my jersey would read: ПУтмын

awesome!
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#10 Finnish Wing

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:12 PM

Дatcyk.

datsyuk.

why not just call him dotsook, or the phonetic datsuk?

Maybe you misunderstood the whole point in that article. It had basically nothing to do with Russian letters. Only thing that is wrong how the English translations are written, because it doesn't match the correct spelling. I really don't know how this would make it any different for the English fans.

How is it harder to pronounce Yevgeni than Evgeni? For example, Fedorov is the way how it's written when you translate it for the normal alphabetic, but the spelling doesn't get translated. So Fyodorov would be the correct way to write it in English. The Finnish version would be Fjodorov.

Of course this would create another problem: Why only Russian players?
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#11 Casey

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:57 PM

Also, the accent is on the second syllable. Hence, the correct pronuncation should be dat-SYOOK, not DAT-sook.


Wouldn't it be more dat-shyook? The -sch is messing with me, take the sh- from shoot and -ook from shook. Similar to shook, but a different O sound.
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#12 MulesWillFly93

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 06:42 PM

Wouldn't it be more dat-shyook? The -sch is messing with me, take the sh- from shoot and -ook from shook. Similar to shook, but a different O sound.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the -sch, sorry. The letter after the D and the A makes a "ts" sound, just like in "pots" or "cats," so there's no sh sound in there. I know in some languages (like Norwegian and Swedish) if you put an s and a consonant y sound together (written as sj in those two languages, for example), it makes a sh sound, but not in Russian - all the sounds stay separate. So yeah, when you've got tsyu all together it's a mouthful, but that's Russian, hehe.

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#13 Vladimir316

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:05 PM

Yeah Russian can be tough.. but for me (as a dutch guy) it isnt hard to say these letters seperatly, like ц ш щ ч.
Worst letter to pronounce really good (here in the Netherlands) atually Ы cause with most people it sounds like и. MulesWillFly explained it very good actually above. You Russian?

Furthermore on topic.. I think they have to leave it like this. Ovi and Dats etc knows it will be pronounce wrongly in other countries. They just have to accept it, thats the way it is. It would not bug me if it happens to me in foreign country. Care..... 0 %

Edited by Vladimir316, 10 February 2011 - 07:05 PM.

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Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
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REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#14 MulesWillFly93

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:35 PM

Yeah Russian can be tough.. but for me (as a dutch guy) it isnt hard to say these letters seperatly, like ц ш щ ч.
Worst letter to pronounce really good (here in the Netherlands) atually Ы cause with most people it sounds like и. MulesWillFly explained it very good actually above. You Russian?

Furthermore on topic.. I think they have to leave it like this. Ovi and Dats etc knows it will be pronounce wrongly in other countries. They just have to accept it, thats the way it is. It would not bug me if it happens to me in foreign country. Care..... 0 %


Nope, I'm American. I mean, I'm part Ukrainian by ancestry, but none of my living relatives speak Ukrainian or Russian or anything. I've just been taking it in college for fun.

Yeah, ы was definitely the hardest one for me to get, too. I'm trying to think how to explain it, but I think you just have to hear it. Another hard one is щ . They tell you it's like shch, as in fresh cheese, but it's not...it's a lot more run together and ends up sounding more like sh to me. Here's a site with audio pronunciations of all the letters if you're curious: http://masterrussian..._alphabet.shtml

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Like up in the land of ice and snow,
They tell me that a Red Wing always flies.
RIP Ruslan Salei - Brad McCrimmon - Stefan Liv - Lokomotiv Yaroslavl
(Orig. lyrics - Ray Wylie Hubbard, "Airplane Fell Down in Dixie")


#15 Datsyerberger

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 08:57 PM

This has been something that's way overdue. "Oh, but it'll be hard for fans to get right!" And we don't have plenty of names in the US of other European or all sorts of odd ancestry that's interesting to pronounce/read? People seem to get over them just fine... hell, here's some names from perfectly American sports figures:

Roethlisberger (Rofflesburger? Roachesburner? What?)
Ayanbadejo
Aromashodu
Rzepczynski

Really, you can find tons of examples of names like this, from American born individuals, all in American pro sports. We don't make a habit of butchering the spelling of their names just because we can't pronounce it the way it's written. Frankly, I think we can live with a few Fyodorovs and Kovalyovs.
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#16 eva unit zero

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 12:13 AM

The logical course is for the NHL to follow with "new style" transcriptions for all Russian players who have not yet played in the NHL. Modifying the official spelling of a player's name is not unprecedented either; Evgeni Nabokov was listed as John Nabokov in official records because Dean Lombardi couldn't properly say or spell Evgeni. Semyon Varlamov is another example.
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#17 Vladimir316

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:51 AM

Nope, I'm American. I mean, I'm part Ukrainian by ancestry, but none of my living relatives speak Ukrainian or Russian or anything. I've just been taking it in college for fun.

Yeah, ы was definitely the hardest one for me to get, too. I'm trying to think how to explain it, but I think you just have to hear it. Another hard one is щ . They tell you it's like shch, as in fresh cheese, but it's not...it's a lot more run together and ends up sounding more like sh to me. Here's a site with audio pronunciations of all the letters if you're curious: http://masterrussian..._alphabet.shtml


Okay, yes the pronunciations on wikipedia US is for some alphabetic letters wrong. Ive seen that as well.. the most funny thing I read in a American learning book is that to pronounce hello (здравствуйте) is the same like saying the following sentence very fast; Does your ass fit you? *LOL* :yowza:

That is so so so so wrong on many levels and not similiar in a thousand years!
I guess for English spokers the letter (х) is going to be the hardest cause you dont have this sound at all.. it is like the static sounds on your tv when you have no received channel... ghghghghhghghghghg ))))

But I can ramble a lot more aboot other names (not Russian) example for dutch canadian names.. Bouwmeester also being said wrongly and sounds funny when the commentary pronunce it. So if I was the NHL or players... leave it like it is. It makes it too difficult for everyone.
Red Wings:
Serie in 7: $2(0) Serie in 6: $5 (0) Serie in 5: $7(0) Serie in 4: $10(1) Kronwalled: $5(2) Homer Screening Goal: $5(3) Eurotwin combo: $5(2) The Mule Multi Goal: $5(0) Winning Cup: $15(0)

Rangers:
Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
*objective not completed!
Updated after Second Round Wings

REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#18 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:12 AM

Thats going to be real tough for the english speaking fans. I understand how they would want to have their names presented in the correct way, but when the vast majority of the teams income come from english speaking fans, we have to be able to read the names. It would take nothing short of learning the russian alphabet to figure out who these guys are if they were to change them. This would create a serious disconnect between players (especially new ones) and the fans. Just take a look at that Ovi pic...

English is legally the primary language in the US and Canada, lets keep it that way folks.

And yes I understand that nowadays its very possible that the majority speaks spanish. (I could be wrong on that)

The United States actually has no legal langugage at Federal level. Some states may choose to adopt a language as its native tongue but it certainly isn't legal nationwide. Hence why Texas, New Mexico and California (for examples) have official languages set as English and Spanish, yet New York doesn't. Nationally you can speak whatever language you like, as long as you can communicate with society.

I think its a good idea to have to correct spellings. Living in England with a German surname I know how annoying it can be for people to pronounce your name differently, just by looking at how its spelt, etc.

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#19 VM1138

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:37 AM

Honestly, this could be a good thing. For instance, how many times have you seen a name and not known how to pronounce it? The Russian spellings make it a little more obvious "Yevgeni" instead of "Evgeni" for instance. I can imagine some names are going to be impossible to decipher, but we already have a guy named Byufiglien which is actually pronounced "Bufflin." Honestly, Fyodorov and the like is not all that hard to read or say, and at least it'll be said accurately now.
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#20 sputman

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:43 AM

Maybe you misunderstood the whole point in that article. It had basically nothing to do with Russian letters. Only thing that is wrong how the English translations are written, because it doesn't match the correct spelling. I really don't know how this would make it any different for the English fans.


my point is, if they're matching it up with the english language, why throw the "y" in there? that "y" is not pronounced. does it make it look more russian with that "y" in there?
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