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Russian player name transcriptions to change, will NHL follow?


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#21 Vladimir316

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:56 AM

Honestly, this could be a good thing. For instance, how many times have you seen a name and not known how to pronounce it? The Russian spellings make it a little more obvious "Yevgeni" instead of "Evgeni" for instance. I can imagine some names are going to be impossible to decipher, but we already have a guy named Byufiglien which is actually pronounced "Bufflin." Honestly, Fyodorov and the like is not all that hard to read or say, and at least it'll be said accurately now.


So in your words Byfuglien gets a whole different name on his jersey "Bufflin" (or autograph with Bufflin), cause you say it like that. I would rather see his real *writing* name instead of some name that Americans can pronounce. Sorry but that is my way of seeing it.
Furthermore how are you going to write a name like Vladimir Malakhov. Cause you have no letter for the (х) in the name Малахов in your own alphabet. Kh, K, G, Gh is all wrong. Gh is maybe the closest but mainly it will be spoken like (Gh as in G in Guest or Google by Americans) and not like clearing your throat G. What I already said, it is getting more confusing if you change it all.
Red Wings:
Serie in 7: $2(0) Serie in 6: $5 (0) Serie in 5: $7(0) Serie in 4: $10(1) Kronwalled: $5(2) Homer Screening Goal: $5(3) Eurotwin combo: $5(2) The Mule Multi Goal: $5(0) Winning Cup: $15(0)

Rangers:
Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
*objective not completed!
Updated after Second Round Wings

REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#22 Vladimir316

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:05 AM

my point is, if they're matching it up with the english language, why throw the "y" in there? that "y" is not pronounced. does it make it look more russian with that "y" in there?


The Y is pronounced in Fyodorov, just not on a hard way. You have э (like e in "e"gg) е (ye like in "yea") ё (yo in "yo"ghurt, but not that hard sound yoh) о (o like in "oh) and ю (like "you"). Can't explain it any better.
Red Wings:
Serie in 7: $2(0) Serie in 6: $5 (0) Serie in 5: $7(0) Serie in 4: $10(1) Kronwalled: $5(2) Homer Screening Goal: $5(3) Eurotwin combo: $5(2) The Mule Multi Goal: $5(0) Winning Cup: $15(0)

Rangers:
Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
*objective not completed!
Updated after Second Round Wings

REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#23 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:13 AM

Actually, I don't think this article is talking about putting Russian names in Russian letters; I think they're just talking about changing the Latin (English) spellings to better reflect the right pronunciation. For example, Fedorov would become Fyodorov, not Фёдоров. I think this is a good idea. The only thing that really sticks out to me as wrong are the pronunciation of three letters in particular:

e = "yeh," not "eh" (I'm talking about a short "e" sound, here, like in "pet," not Canadian "eh," just to be clear)
ё = "yo" (Looks pretty darn similar to an e, right, but makes a completely different sound. Hence, Fyodorov, not Fedorov)
o = "oh" (as in "poke") when it's in the stressed syllable, somewhere between "uh" and "ah" when it's not (Ovechkin = uh-VYETCH-kin)

I like the IIHF's transcription. It gets as close as possible without being totally confusing. For instance, the two letters that don't make any sound (although they do change the sound of the letter before them) are just left out completely, and I think that's a good move since they don't make that much difference in the word. It's close enough without making the announcers take Russian lessons.

Now, the other thing that this does not address is that they need to get the stress on the right syllable of the name (like var-LA-mov instead of VAR-la-mov). There are no rules about where the stress falls on words in Russian, so if you haven't grown up speaking it, it's hard to know where the accent is. In my textbooks, they put a mark over the syllable that gets the stress so we poor students can figure it out...maybe the NHL could do something similar, too (I mean on the announcers' guide sheets, not on the jerseys).



Actually, it's:

Дацюк

Basically, what you've got going on here is D-a-ts-yu-k.

ц - this letter makes a "ts" sound. I don't know why that sound needs its own letter when they have corresponding T and S letters too, but that's how it is.
ю - this letter makes a "yoo" sound. If you were to use the Russian letter "y," that would only make an "oo" sound.

Also, the accent is on the second syllable. Hence, the correct pronuncation should be dat-SYOOK, not DAT-sook.

One: thank you for some very awesome and educational insight on the Russian language! B: I do agree it'll be better with the correct spellings of the names. I wouldn't even mid seeing the actually Russian spelling of their names, it looks pretty cool! Third, My name is of German decent and has the "IE" in it pronounced "EE" but I constantly either get the pronunciation "I" or get it spelled "EI" by people! I hate that! and D: how are you able to type the Russian characters? I have always wanted to be able to type foreign letters but have never been able to figure it out!

Thanks again for all the insight

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#24 seeinred

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:18 AM

Maybe you misunderstood the whole point in that article. It had basically nothing to do with Russian letters. Only thing that is wrong how the English translations are written, because it doesn't match the correct spelling. I really don't know how this would make it any different for the English fans.

How is it harder to pronounce Yevgeni than Evgeni? For example, Fedorov is the way how it's written when you translate it for the normal alphabetic, but the spelling doesn't get translated. So Fyodorov would be the correct way to write it in English. The Finnish version would be Fjodorov.

Of course this would create another problem: Why only Russian players?


They'll also be using it for players from Belarus and Kazakhstan, and they're developing a standards for Ukrainian players, too.

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#25 Vladimir316

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:28 AM

I have always wanted to be able to type foreign letters but have never been able to figure it out!

Thanks again for all the insight


I do not know, I live with it that my first name is said wrongly by English spoken persons, Frank will be Frenk in english. It does not bother me. It is easier to give the whole world one language so nothing can be pronounced incorrect, instead of trying to write names what is similar to the english alphabet. I see both not happening.

I can help you a bit maybe, I have a dutch Windows version so do not know the exact names of the steps you have to go through. You go to "Start" then "Configuration" then something with "Language and Region", "Keyboard adjustment", click in general tab "ADD" and then add the correct language. You can switch between languages pressing "Shift+Alt" at the same time. Hope it helped. Maybe you need to restart your pc once to get it done.
Red Wings:
Serie in 7: $2(0) Serie in 6: $5 (0) Serie in 5: $7(0) Serie in 4: $10(1) Kronwalled: $5(2) Homer Screening Goal: $5(3) Eurotwin combo: $5(2) The Mule Multi Goal: $5(0) Winning Cup: $15(0)

Rangers:
Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
*objective not completed!
Updated after Second Round Wings

REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#26 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:54 AM

I do not know, I live with it that my first name is said wrongly by English spoken persons, Frank will be Frenk in english. It does not bother me. It is easier to give the whole world one language so nothing can be pronounced incorrect, instead of trying to write names what is similar to the english alphabet. I see both not happening.

I can help you a bit maybe, I have a dutch Windows version so do not know the exact names of the steps you have to go through. You go to "Start" then "Configuration" then something with "Language and Region", "Keyboard adjustment", click in general tab "ADD" and then add the correct language. You can switch between languages pressing "Shift+Alt" at the same time. Hope it helped. Maybe you need to restart your pc once to get it done.

thanks, I will try it!

увше Ерфтлы ше цщклув!!! Not sure if I have the correct dialect though, when I type Datsyuk it looks like this: вфеынгл. Not quite the same as above. Maybe I need to install more dialects? I dunno, but thanks!

Edited by LeftWinger, 11 February 2011 - 11:10 AM.

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#27 VM1138

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:59 AM

So in your words Byfuglien gets a whole different name on his jersey "Bufflin" (or autograph with Bufflin), cause you say it like that. I would rather see his real *writing* name instead of some name that Americans can pronounce. Sorry but that is my way of seeing it.
Furthermore how are you going to write a name like Vladimir Malakhov. Cause you have no letter for the (х) in the name Малахов in your own alphabet. Kh, K, G, Gh is all wrong. Gh is maybe the closest but mainly it will be spoken like (Gh as in G in Guest or Google by Americans) and not like clearing your throat G. What I already said, it is getting more confusing if you change it all.


No, my point with Byfuglien was that weird-looking names are already a part of the NHL, I was disagreeing with those who say this will make things weird or more difficult. Basically, I have yet to see a Russian name correctly written that is as bizarre as the spelling to pronunciation variation in Byfuglien's name.
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#28 akustyk

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:07 PM

about time someone corrected this. rules of transcription between languages/alphabets dictate, that it's about getting closest possible sound match. and the transcription is not general and same for i.e. Russian to English and Russian to French etc.

see:
Chelyabinsk in English,
Tcheliabinsk in French,
Czelabińsk in Polish,
Tsjeljabinsk in Dutch,
Čeljabinsk in Italian
Cheliábinsk in Spanish.

all versions being correct in their respective language, all of those written with Latin alphabets ;)


and BTW: this is Latin alphabet, not English. English language didn't even exist when this alphabet was developed :)

#29 akustyk

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:16 PM

Of course this would create another problem: Why only Russian players?

perhaps it's because the misspelling dates back to the time when the only country using non-Latin alphabet and with players in the NHL was Soviet Union.

the transcription basically applies to all cases where some letters/sounds are nonexistent in target language. and it doesn't even has to include two different alphabets. see it's Räikkönen in Finnish or German, but it's spelled Raikkonen in English :) it's Małysz in Polish but Malysz in all other Latin-based alphabets :)

#30 Vladimir316

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:25 PM

thanks, I will try it!

увше Ерфтлы ше цщклув!!! Not sure if I have the correct dialect though, when I type Datsyuk it looks like this: вфеынгл. Not quite the same as above. Maybe I need to install more dialects? I dunno, but thanks!


LOL!! ))) Russian keyboard has different setup as the QWERTY keyboards... It is Дацю́к or on your keyboard press "Lfw.r".
Russian alphabet also have more letters so you have them also under the ;'[],./ and ` keys. See below
Link Russian keyboard

пожалуйста ;) it means your welcome

Edited by Vladimir316, 11 February 2011 - 01:29 PM.

Red Wings:
Serie in 7: $2(0) Serie in 6: $5 (0) Serie in 5: $7(0) Serie in 4: $10(1) Kronwalled: $5(2) Homer Screening Goal: $5(3) Eurotwin combo: $5(2) The Mule Multi Goal: $5(0) Winning Cup: $15(0)

Rangers:
Serie in 7: $4(0) Serie in 6: $7(0) Serie in 5: $10(0) Serie in 4: $15(0) Save previous rounds making finals x: $0.05(143*) Save Stanley Finals x: $0.05(0) Lundqvist Shutout: $5(0) Dubinsky Goal: $2(2) Stepan Goal: $3(0) Goal any Other Rag $1(6) Prust/Avery Fight: $3(0) Winning Cup: $20(0)


TOTAL RED WINGS: $45 TOTAL RANGERS : $10 TOTAL MONEY ON THE BOARD : $55
*objective not completed!
Updated after Second Round Wings

REST IN PEACE DEREK, YOU WILL ENFORCE A LOT MORE IN THE HEAVEN HOCKEY LEAGUE!

#31 HOCKEY MATTERS

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:54 PM

What's my name.....note: unedited. language.

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#32 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:13 PM

LOL!! ))) Russian keyboard has different setup as the QWERTY keyboards... It is Дацю́к or on your keyboard press "Lfw.r".
Russian alphabet also have more letters so you have them also under the ;'[],./ and ` keys. See below
Link Russian keyboard

пожалуйста ;) it means your welcome

дацюк COOL! and lfw.r is like a hyphenated version of Leftwinger! :lol: Man that Russian keyboard is confusing! so when I write ерфтлы, its not really thanks then? wow, I got a ways to go!

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#33 Finnish Wing

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:38 PM

perhaps it's because the misspelling dates back to the time when the only country using non-Latin alphabet and with players in the NHL was Soviet Union.

the transcription basically applies to all cases where some letters/sounds are nonexistent in target language. and it doesn't even has to include two different alphabets. see it's Räikkönen in Finnish or German, but it's spelled Raikkonen in English :) it's Małysz in Polish but Malysz in all other Latin-based alphabets :)

Yeah, but when you spell Raikkonen in English it doesn't sound the same when spelling Räikkönen in Finnish. Even Selänne sounds more like salami.
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#34 Konnan511

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:28 PM

I can finally put my Russian to use now.
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