Then don't use it as an argument. It discrediting.
i can't show you proof. i'm sure you've watched a lot of wings hockey so i don't understand how you can think otherwise. even if you think Z is as fast as pavel, you can't tell me you think Z is as good of a skater as pavel.
Really? Because you think you see Pavel moving faster out there that automatically makes him faster than Z? I don't buy it, nor am I about to claim that Z is faster than Pavel. I'm just not about to make an argument one way or the other because we have zero verifiable way of determining it. Now, if someone was debating speed between Pavel and Homer, well...that's a different story.
Nice job putting words in my mouth. Notice the fact that I didn't bring up the Crosby finals match-up, you did. As for Pavel handling Crosby, I bet he could handle very well, but it doesn't change the fact that Z is still the go-to guy when it comes to matching up against a teams' top player. As for match-ups not being all about defense: do you really think I don't understand that? The fact of the matter is when Babs is at home and has control of his match-ups he's continuously uses Z when he can and on the road depending on the severity and score of the game he does push to get Z out there when he can. So, no...those assignments aren't only during home games.
those assignments you speak of are only during home games, and some of that may have something to do with the fact that pavel is put out there against the other teams' better defensive forwards due to his superior offensive skills. match-ups aren't all about defence.
and i could ask you to show me proof here. you'll probably mention crosby in the finals. do you honestly think pavel can't handle crosby?
Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. While I understand playing ability holds weight with the Lady Byng, the award is equally if not well more-so about staying out of the box. While we can tip our hats to Dats in that department and give him the edge over Z, why didn't you just make that argument in the first place?
why not? the award is for sportsmanship combined with a high standard of playing ability. someone that wins this award shouldn't be laughed at just because there is a 'lady' in the name of the award.
Of course you do, but as anyone can tell you Z and Pavel are paid to get their names on the scoresheet....especially in the playoffs! While Pavel has turned his playoff bust reputation around, there was also the 08-09 playoff debacle on his part and even if we eliminate both of their first few playoffs given they weren't focal points of the Wings offense yet, since then Z has never had a down playoff run, which again is where it counts when you're playing for Detroit.
ok. i'll give you that. maybe i shouldn't have removed the pre-lockout years to make my point. all i was trying to say was that recently pavel has been putting up points in the playoffs. however, i never meant to imply, by statistics, that Z is more effective that pavel in the playoffs. that's why you have to watch the game to see who is playing well. for example, homer is very effective on most nights but he only puts up 35-40 points per year. another example is rafalski's +/- this season compared to lids'
I couldn't agree more! Have you not seen Z's play night-in and night-out? Do you not see the level of play he exudes even when he's not racking up the points?
what i meant by "on the stat sheet" is that judging a player's worth should be done through watching him play, not just looking at how many points he scored. i admit that i have used a lot of statistics to back up some arguments on pavel's behalf but i only did that because i am certain that some of you would ask for 'proof,' which i cannot easily provide. if i say pavel is a better faceoff man, the only way to "prove" it is to state their faceoff statistics.
As for their face-off percentages, never once did I claim Z was the better face-off man. What I will throw into that discussion is that Z does typically does play more shorthanded situations than Pavel which makes it more difficult for him to win face-offs (especially when he's defending a 5-on-3 given the lack of support). Again, this is one of the many areas where stats can actually lie.
After all this bulls*** talk back and forth my one and only point remains, these two players are two of the best in the world. They excel in all areas against almost everyone else in the world and both have certain skills that put them above the other. That's my argument and point. Can you honestly not admit the same?
I couldn't agree more. Dats not only is one of the greatest players in the world, his "Wow" factor is second to absolutely *no one!* Z tends to be a lot like Lids where he doesn't kill you with flash, and then there's those types of players where all they are is flash and they don't do well in other areas of the game. Dats has probably the most complete way of combining all-world skill and "Wow"-Factor whenever he's on the ice. Those types of talents simply don't come around every few years.
one final thing i want to say regarding the original topic of this thread: Z would make a better captain not because he is as good of a player as pavel but because of his leadership skills, as well due to the lack of english language skills on pavel's part.
either way, i sometimes just cannot believe that red wings fans, who watch the majority of wings' games (i hope), still do not appreciate how superior pavel datsyuk is to almost every player in the league, in almost every way. that is why i posted in this thread in the first place.