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I've decided-Datsyuk for Captain


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#81 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:49 AM

God, I can't believe I'm continuing this ridiculous debate. As another member pointed out, these two players are some of the best in the world and while they excel in certain areas better than the other, they both excel better than almost anyone else in the NHL.

i can't show you proof. i'm sure you've watched a lot of wings hockey so i don't understand how you can think otherwise. even if you think Z is as fast as pavel, you can't tell me you think Z is as good of a skater as pavel.

Then don't use it as an argument. It discrediting.

Really? Because you think you see Pavel moving faster out there that automatically makes him faster than Z? I don't buy it, nor am I about to claim that Z is faster than Pavel. I'm just not about to make an argument one way or the other because we have zero verifiable way of determining it. Now, if someone was debating speed between Pavel and Homer, well...that's a different story.

those assignments you speak of are only during home games, and some of that may have something to do with the fact that pavel is put out there against the other teams' better defensive forwards due to his superior offensive skills. match-ups aren't all about defence.
and i could ask you to show me proof here. you'll probably mention crosby in the finals. do you honestly think pavel can't handle crosby?

Nice job putting words in my mouth. Notice the fact that I didn't bring up the Crosby finals match-up, you did. As for Pavel handling Crosby, I bet he could handle very well, but it doesn't change the fact that Z is still the go-to guy when it comes to matching up against a teams' top player. As for match-ups not being all about defense: do you really think I don't understand that? The fact of the matter is when Babs is at home and has control of his match-ups he's continuously uses Z when he can and on the road depending on the severity and score of the game he does push to get Z out there when he can. So, no...those assignments aren't only during home games.

why not? the award is for sportsmanship combined with a high standard of playing ability. someone that wins this award shouldn't be laughed at just because there is a 'lady' in the name of the award.

Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. While I understand playing ability holds weight with the Lady Byng, the award is equally if not well more-so about staying out of the box. While we can tip our hats to Dats in that department and give him the edge over Z, why didn't you just make that argument in the first place?

ok. i'll give you that. maybe i shouldn't have removed the pre-lockout years to make my point. all i was trying to say was that recently pavel has been putting up points in the playoffs. however, i never meant to imply, by statistics, that Z is more effective that pavel in the playoffs. that's why you have to watch the game to see who is playing well. for example, homer is very effective on most nights but he only puts up 35-40 points per year. another example is rafalski's +/- this season compared to lids'

Of course you do, but as anyone can tell you Z and Pavel are paid to get their names on the scoresheet....especially in the playoffs! While Pavel has turned his playoff bust reputation around, there was also the 08-09 playoff debacle on his part and even if we eliminate both of their first few playoffs given they weren't focal points of the Wings offense yet, since then Z has never had a down playoff run, which again is where it counts when you're playing for Detroit.

what i meant by "on the stat sheet" is that judging a player's worth should be done through watching him play, not just looking at how many points he scored. i admit that i have used a lot of statistics to back up some arguments on pavel's behalf but i only did that because i am certain that some of you would ask for 'proof,' which i cannot easily provide. if i say pavel is a better faceoff man, the only way to "prove" it is to state their faceoff statistics.

I couldn't agree more! Have you not seen Z's play night-in and night-out? Do you not see the level of play he exudes even when he's not racking up the points?

As for their face-off percentages, never once did I claim Z was the better face-off man. What I will throw into that discussion is that Z does typically does play more shorthanded situations than Pavel which makes it more difficult for him to win face-offs (especially when he's defending a 5-on-3 given the lack of support). Again, this is one of the many areas where stats can actually lie.

After all this bulls*** talk back and forth my one and only point remains, these two players are two of the best in the world. They excel in all areas against almost everyone else in the world and both have certain skills that put them above the other. That's my argument and point. Can you honestly not admit the same?

one final thing i want to say regarding the original topic of this thread: Z would make a better captain not because he is as good of a player as pavel but because of his leadership skills, as well due to the lack of english language skills on pavel's part.

either way, i sometimes just cannot believe that red wings fans, who watch the majority of wings' games (i hope), still do not appreciate how superior pavel datsyuk is to almost every player in the league, in almost every way. that is why i posted in this thread in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. Dats not only is one of the greatest players in the world, his "Wow" factor is second to absolutely *no one!* Z tends to be a lot like Lids where he doesn't kill you with flash, and then there's those types of players where all they are is flash and they don't do well in other areas of the game. Dats has probably the most complete way of combining all-world skill and "Wow"-Factor whenever he's on the ice. Those types of talents simply don't come around every few years.
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#82 Selliria

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:29 AM

I think they'd both make great captains, honestly. But I also think the Red Wings organization has been counting on Z to fulfill that role when the time comes. I once read an article in which the writer was asking some of the Red Wings players who their most inspirational teammate was and why. Aside from the obvious Lidstrom answer, a lot of them said Zetterberg because of his determination and work ethic both on the ice and in the locker room. And many of them talked about how Z was the one they went to when they needed to talk to someone about an issue they were having.

Guess we'll just have to wait & see.

#83 Rivalred

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:10 PM

I expect to see this next season:

C: Lidstrom
A: Henrik
A: Pavel

Does anyone really want to disagree with this?

Edited by Rivalred, 02 March 2011 - 12:10 PM.

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#84 HankthaTank

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:20 PM

I expect to see this next season:

C: Lidstrom
A: Henrik
A: Pavel

Does anyone really want to disagree with this?

Nope. But the discussion was more along the lines of who takes on that sad day when Nick retires. Next year though, you are right on the money Posted Image
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#85 ogreslayer

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:26 PM

I expect to see this next season:

C: Lidstrom
A: Henrik
A: Pavel

Does anyone really want to disagree with this?

Oh why not just really shake things up?

C: Hudler
A: Flip
A: Big E

:hehe:

Actually once Lids & Drapes step away, I would imagine they'll keep rotating the A's like they do now. Something like this wouldn't surprise me....

C: Hank
A: Pavs
A (rotation): Flip
A (rotation): Kronner or Stewie


Now am I dreaming this up or did Flip not wear the A a game or two last year with all the injuries?

Edited by ogreslayer, 02 March 2011 - 12:37 PM.


#86 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:29 PM

Zetterberg definitely gets the 'C' and Kronwall gets his 'A'. That's just the way it's going to be.


i agree with both Z for the C and Kronwall gets an A. though i'd like to add in that the Wings usually roll 3 A's and if this continues, Helm gets the 3rd A in my opinion. he's earned it. either him or cleary.

but on topic, Z has already been named the heir for captain if i'm not mistaken.

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#87 Mabuhay Red Wings

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 01:34 PM

Zetterberg or Datsyuk will get the C and then Doughty/Weber/Some elite defenseman/the Sidney Crosby phenom of today's defensemen the Wings will somehow acquire after Lidstrom will have an A.

#88 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 02:34 PM

i agree with both Z for the C and Kronwall gets an A. though i'd like to add in that the Wings usually roll 3 A's and if this continues, Helm gets the 3rd A in my opinion. he's earned it. either him or cleary.

but on topic, Z has already been named the heir for captain if i'm not mistaken.

That's not really true. The reason they're rotating A's currently is because they didn't want to wait any longer in making their all-world talent Datsyuk an Alternate and the organization is too classy to strip the "A" from Draper. Not that Dats was pushing for it, but given Draper's age and the type of player/leader-by-example Dats was becoming, they simply made the decision to roll with it.

Now IMO, if Draper were to retire this year (not saying he will) and Lids were to return, I don't see any way at all Z and Dats don't become permanent A's with other players filling in during injuries. There's no one on the current roster without a letter over their chest that's similar to Dats was before he got named a rotating Alternate. No one even close.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


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#89 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 04:07 PM

I can just tell... your a dick arnt you?


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#90 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 04:49 PM

God, I can't believe I'm continuing this ridiculous debate. As another member pointed out, these two players are some of the best in the world and while they excel in certain areas better than the other, they both excel better than almost anyone else in the NHL.

I agree with this, but as long as it's being discussed I'll go ahead and weigh in on one point.

Really? Because you think you see Pavel moving faster out there that automatically makes him faster than Z? I don't buy it, nor am I about to claim that Z is faster than Pavel. I'm just not about to make an argument one way or the other because we have zero verifiable way of determining it. Now, if someone was debating speed between Pavel and Homer, well...that's a different story.

If this is the level of evidence being demanded then I disagree; you could no more prove Pavel is faster than Hank than he is Homer, unless you have access to a radar gun. Nor could you prove many other topics discussed in this thread like lethality of wrist shot or back-checking.

However, that level of scrutiny is not necessary, the answer to the question is easily observed. Pavel is one of the best skaters on the team; with certainty I can only say that Helm and Modano (and Mursak as long as we're including cameos) are faster skaters than him. Flip and Eaves are also in the neighborhood, but Pav's tremendous vision and agility let him keep moving forward where lesser forwards are checked. It is evident that he is faster and has better acceleration and agility than Hank.
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#91 eva unit zero

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 09:56 PM

I agree with this, but as long as it's being discussed I'll go ahead and weigh in on one point.


If this is the level of evidence being demanded then I disagree; you could no more prove Pavel is faster than Hank than he is Homer, unless you have access to a radar gun. Nor could you prove many other topics discussed in this thread like lethality of wrist shot or back-checking.

However, that level of scrutiny is not necessary, the answer to the question is easily observed. Pavel is one of the best skaters on the team; with certainty I can only say that Helm and Modano (and Mursak as long as we're including cameos) are faster skaters than him. Flip and Eaves are also in the neighborhood, but Pav's tremendous vision and agility let him keep moving forward where lesser forwards are checked. It is evident that he is faster and has better acceleration and agility than Hank.


See, I think this whole "Pav is faster" "How do you know?" is a load of bull. Why? Because the only point of reference we have is what they look like on the ice; which is affected by playing styles, ice quality, opponents, skating room, etc. Hudler is generally bashed for being a slow skater on here, yet he can catch most opposing players on the backcheck. Why is that? While Huds may not be a fast skater, his playing style makes him appear slower than he actually is.

Get a radar gun and a sheet of ice, call Pav and Hank. and then we'll find out who's faster.

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#92 13dangledangle

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:52 PM

I may be... but you're a simpleton.


Im cool with that as well. I knew we would find common ground Posted Image

Edited by 13dangledangle, 02 March 2011 - 11:53 PM.

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#93 DatsMyWings13

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 10:42 AM

I agree with the majority on this one. Z will be the next captain and deserves it. However if they gave it to Datsyuk I wouldn't be upset. But again I think Z is a lock for our next captain.

#94 blgillett

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 03:08 PM

it is important that when the Captain speaks everyone understands him
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#95 sputman

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 08:17 AM

it is important that when the Captain speaks everyone understands him


well that counts holmstrom out.
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#96 darkmanx

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 12:57 PM

See, I think this whole "Pav is faster" "How do you know?" is a load of bull. Why? Because the only point of reference we have is what they look like on the ice; which is affected by playing styles, ice quality, opponents, skating room, etc. Hudler is generally bashed for being a slow skater on here, yet he can catch most opposing players on the backcheck. Why is that? While Huds may not be a fast skater, his playing style makes him appear slower than he actually is.

Get a radar gun and a sheet of ice, call Pav and Hank. and then we'll find out who's faster.


your mancrush for Hudler is appauling seriously, you bring him up in every thread. Hudler is slow, he tries to run when he skates half the time.

Edited by darkmanx, 04 March 2011 - 12:58 PM.


#97 mjtm77

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:11 PM

f*** it give it to Howard
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#98 HankthaTank

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:23 PM

it is important that when the Captain speaks everyone understands him

O RLY?
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#99 13dangledangle

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 01:33 AM

O RLY?
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That's who I was thinking of when people brought up the language barrier lol
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#100 Uncle Danny

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 03:36 AM

That's a pretty lame comparison, seeing as the Caps have accomplished exactly f*** all in the post season recently, and therefore should not be used as any sort of example for sweater letters...but just to entertain your argument for a moment: you do realize that Ovechkin's english is heads and shoulders better than Datsyuk's, yes?
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