Hmm something I noticed

[nuts2u 22]

It would be nice to ***** Franzen stick up for himself once in a while.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

.

Edited October 14, 2016 by WorkingOvertime

[Broken 16 381]

The second fight has to be given credit. But don't forget Babcock's time out and speach.

Funny story: before the playoffs in 2008 the majority of the boards said the exact same thing about Dallas Drake. Of course his series tipping shift against Dallas proved everyone wrong.

The point is that we won't really be able to gauge Modano's usefulness until the playoffs are over. Modano was added for the playoff season, not for the 82 game grind.

I realize all that. I'm still holding out hope. I was kinda pro re-signing him up until he came back. And then Mickey implied that he exaggerated his groin tweak just to get out of the brutal practice he helped earn. That seems pretty cheesy if true, 40 years old or not.

[dobbles 252]

i don't buy it. both fights were won by bertuzzi, yet the first one didn't cause the wings to play better. additionally, the wings started the game playing physical so its not as if they needed bertuzzi to step up and keep the preds from dominating physical. i can only assume that it was a very concerted effort to play physical after their last meeting and had nothing to do with bertuzzi's fight. additionally, the second fight was very much about settling the score from their earlier bout. it had nothing to do with defedning teammates or anything team related.

while the fights were enjoyable, i don't see them as related to the game. the wings played very physical before and after the fight. as noted earlier, the wings actually had good jump to start the game. so they had already been playing well.

i am fine that cleary and babcock said the fights pumped them up. thats cool. i still think that means the fights had anything to do with the wings managing to come back.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Babcock and Cleary both said the fights ignited the team in their post-game interviews. Is that enough proof for you?

I was looking at the scoreboard for my proof.

Look, I enjoyed watching both fights, but the Wings' team that was playing after each fight was the exact same gritty team that was playing beforehand in the first. Its not like we were flat-footed, Bert gets in a scuffle, then suddenly we're gritty and motivated. As I previously stated, it was Nashville that scored following both fights, not the Wings. The boys came out hard today to make a statement after an abysmal and embarrassing week. THAT is what inspired the actions today (including both fights), not the fights themselves. And I'm sure Babs and Clears said as much in a post-game interview. Its practically taboo to say otherwise of a fight, especially after such an uninspiring week. They knew what Bert was trying to do and why, but the team was already plenty motivated. The fights were the result of that, not the cause.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Echolalia

[WorkingOvertime 536]

I was looking at the scoreboard for my proof.

Look, I enjoyed watching both fights, but the Wings' team that was playing after each fight was the exact same gritty team that was playing beforehand in the first. Its not like we were flat-footed, Bert gets in a scuffle, then suddenly we're gritty and motivated. As I previously stated, it was Nashville that scored following both fights, not the Wings. The boys came out hard today to make a statement after an abysmal and embarrassing week. THAT is what inspired the actions today (including both fights), not the fights themselves. And I'm sure Babs and Clears said as much in a post-game interview. Its practically taboo to say otherwise of a fight, especially after such an uninspiring week. They knew what Bert was trying to do and why, but the team was already plenty motivated. The fights were the result of that, not the cause.

As a player, I believe the fights motivated the team. Does that mean the weren't motivated before? No. Does that somehow make the players better scorers? No. But there is an amount of energy that comes from seeing your teammate drop the gloves- this can't always be traced to the scoreboard. Previously the Pred's bullied the Wings, and the fights were a statement that the Wings were going to push back. I believe this was significant part of the Wings' comeback.

[MacAttack25 44]

I was looking at the scoreboard for my proof.

Look, I enjoyed watching both fights, but the Wings' team that was playing after each fight was the exact same gritty team that was playing beforehand in the first. Its not like we were flat-footed, Bert gets in a scuffle, then suddenly we're gritty and motivated. As I previously stated, it was Nashville that scored following both fights, not the Wings. The boys came out hard today to make a statement after an abysmal and embarrassing week. THAT is what inspired the actions today (including both fights), not the fights themselves. And I'm sure Babs and Clears said as much in a post-game interview. Its practically taboo to say otherwise of a fight, especially after such an uninspiring week. They knew what Bert was trying to do and why, but the team was already plenty motivated. The fights were the result of that, not the cause.

Take a look at the box score again. Nashville only scored after the first one. Bertuzzi fought for the first time, Nashville scored 3 goals, the Red Wings called a time out, Bertuzzi fought for the second time, Nashville scored 0 times, the Red Wings scored 4 goals and won the game. So technically, the Red Wings scored following both fights

[Echolalia 2,961]

Take a look at the box score again. Nashville only scored after the first one. Bertuzzi fought for the first time, Nashville scored 3 goals, the Red Wings called a time out, Bertuzzi fought for the second time, Nashville scored 0 times, the Red Wings scored 4 goals and won the game. So technically, the Red Wings scored following both fights

My mistake. All three of Nashville's goals came after the first fight. The Wings' goals came after the second one. I'm still standing by my observation that the on ice product throughout the entire game was consistent, and there wasn't any real hop in their step after either fight that was lacking before.

[eva unit zero 271]

Funny story: before the playoffs in 2008 the majority of the boards said the exact same thing about Dallas Drake. Of course his series tipping shift against Dallas proved everyone wrong.

The point is that we won't really be able to gauge Modano's usefulness until the playoffs are over. Modano was added for the playoff season, not for the 82 game grind.

The big difference? Drake was effective in his role the regular season, even if he was unpopular on LGW. He was brought on the be a veteran grinder and defensive presence, and did it well. Modano came in for depth scoring, but has been invisible when it comes to the scoresheet. Pretty useless so far.

Maybe Modano will score 20 goals in the playoffs and we'll all eat crow. But given the fact that he has only once scored better than a point per game in the postseason, compared with ten times in the regular season, pretty much shows that his offense sort of goes away in the playoffs; he has scored at about 85% of his regular season rate in the postseason. That would suggest that he is going to score 1-2 points per series based on his current scoring over the season. And he was playing much more early on; he is the team's #12 forward now. Is he really going to make much of a difference?

[Guest Shoreline]

Drake wasn't unpopular on LGW. He actually had offensive talent and was more than just a guy to throw punches to satisfy the fringe of NHL fans who get a little too excited by fighting. He was a constant source of energy which helped produce opportunities to score, or even wear down a first pair of opposing defensemen to make way for the scoring lines to have an easier time. Someone who actually believes his usefulness of this team was because he dropped the gloves, by any remote significance, couldn't possibly more naive. I can't say many Wing fans in the decade previous to him rejoining liked him much, and I bet you it had little to do with him fighting.

Obviously Bert is more than just a guy to throw punches. I can see the logic behind the possible energy that fight might have brought, but good lord, when the Wings lose, to the very same people, they lose because they're ******* who can't fight, when they win it's certainly because they fight, with obvious nitpicking of games where the team happened to win and fight in the same game (but never mention of the fights and losing).

I think a fight can have a slight impact on the team morale and such, but hockey players aren't so retarded to play s***ty all game long, waiting for a fight to suddenly find their offensive touch. Unfortunately exaggeration doesn't really win over people who weren't already convinced.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Shoreline

[under_par_00 45]

It'd be pretty badass if Modano came out of the playoff gate firing on all cylinders and pulled a 'playoff Mule' for us.

Do you think this is possible? Modano has flashes of great play, and maybe since he will likely retire after this year, he will really give it his all in his final playoff run.

[Wings3:16 318]

Nice to see.

[syntax 359]

Do you think this is possible? Modano has flashes of great play, and maybe since he will likely retire after this year, he will really give it his all in his final playoff run.

I think it'd be totally awesome if he did. LGW would self destruct, however.

[Broken 16 381]

Agree with eva. I just don't see Modano's game elevating much. He might look ok out there right now but he's doing little more than floating around hoping to get off a one time wrister. Not impressive so far.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Broken 16

[esteef 2,679]

If the fight costs us momentum and ultimately the game, fighting is useless. If the fight gives us momentum and we win, it wasn't the fight that did it. Pretty easy to follow around here.

esteef

[Carman 387]

If the fight costs us momentum and ultimately the game, fighting is useless. If the fight gives us momentum and we win, it wasn't the fight that did it. Pretty easy to follow around here.

esteef

Or we can have a player like Bertuzzi that will fight only when it will benefit us.

And not have a player like Rosehill or S.o.b. that feel they have to fight every game to prove their worth and risk losing a lead because of that momentum shift.

In an ideal world fighting should be used as a way for that player to regulate the game(and in that case would surely like to have a fulltime "enforcer"),but until the instigator rule is taken out I feel the need for a fighter to be non-existent.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Or we can have a player like Bertuzzi that will fight only when it will benefit us.

And not have a player like Rosehill or S.o.b. that feel they have to fight every game to prove their worth and risk losing a lead because of that momentum shift.

In an ideal world fighting should be used as a way for that player to regulate the game(and in that case would surely like to have a fulltime "enforcer"),but until the instigator rule is taken out I feel the need for a fighter to be non-existent.

I figured I'd just copy and paste this post since it addresses your post, and you seem to have ignored one of the main points I was making (about Rosehill).

Not all 'enforcers' fight at stupid times. An example is Rosehill tonight. The Leafs were up 2-0 and Lessard was constantly challenging him; however, Rosehill wouldn't fight because the Leafs were up. Most enforcers are smart enough to only fight when there team is down or when the other team is taking liberties.

Are you eating crow about not liking Bert's fights in the GDT?

[Carman 387]

Rosehill still has what 7 fights in 24 games and 3 points? I'd rather have a player like Prust anyday. Rosehill to me is one of these one dimensional players that services are useless to a skilled team like the Red Wings.

And am I eating crow about Bertuzzi fights? umm no just the first one. I did not like the timing of his first fight at all, and it shows on the scoreboard. I was fine with the second fight though, but if you want to ignore the timing of my posts and take them out of context from the GDT, feel free.

[BlueMonk 102]

No ive seen it brought up here countless times that fights dont have an affect on momentum or anything and that it is completely pointless.

Not by anyone who has a nuanced understanding of hockey.

Bert's fights were important but so was the physical play of the team overall. Abby was hitting everyone in sight. O'Brien was right; Tootoo being out helped Detroit's cause. There wasn't as much of a deterrent. When you have tough guys, everyone on the bench grows an inch, as they say. Remember when Kronwall was laying monster hits all the time a few years ago? He had guys like Downey, Drake and Mac backing him up. Now those guys are gone, and how often do you see those big hits now?

Having a roster full of goons is not the answer, but standing up for yourself and your teammates is essential. As I pointed out on the GDT, once Detroit started standing up for themselves, fighting, initiating contacting, laying the big hits and not taking an s*** after the whistle, etc., guys like Weber and Erat weren't running around anymore. It was a pretty uneventful 3rd period. All a team has to do is serve notice that they're not going to be pushed around and the bullies back off.

It's frighteningly simple and obvious, but too many fans have their noses buried in fantasy hockey or something to appreciate the role that intimidation plays in the game.

[esteef 2,679]

...but too many fans have their noses buried in fantasy hockey or something to appreciate the role that intimidation plays in the game.

This x 1000. Fighting can't be directly tied to scoring so therefore it's useless in fatasyworld.

esteef

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Rosehill still has what 7 fights in 24 games and 3 points? I'd rather have a player like Prust anyday. Rosehill to me is one of these one dimensional players that services are useless to a skilled team like the Red Wings.

And am I eating crow about Bertuzzi fights? umm no just the first one. I did not like the timing of his first fight at all, and it shows on the scoreboard. I was fine with the second fight though, but if you want to ignore the timing of my posts and take them out of context from the GDT, feel free.

Prust has had an amazing season this year- I hope that most on here would want a player like him on the Wings. Rosehill is on pace for ~10 points (over 82 games) which is better than most of the enforcers in the league. Skill-wise, he is better than most heavyweights, although he isn't a true heavyweight himself.

Why didn't you like the timing of the first fight? I thought it was a good stand against the 'bullying' the Preds usually employ against the Wings. While it didn't have a direct impact on the score immediately, I think it helped assert the physical push-back the Wings had throughout the game.

[Carman 387]

Prust has had an amazing season this year- I hope that most on here would want a player like him on the Wings. Rosehill is on pace for ~10 points (over 82 games) which is better than most of the enforcers in the league. Skill-wise, he is better than most heavyweights, although he isn't a true heavyweight himself.

Why didn't you like the timing of the first fight? I thought it was a good stand against the 'bullying' the Preds usually employ against the Wings. While it didn't have a direct impact on the score immediately, I think it helped assert the physical push-back the Wings had throughout the game.

I thought the Wings came out of the game great for once, they were battling and skating hard. I felt that it was more of a personal battle then it was about the current situation in the game. I'm not going to say it was a major factor in the game, because the Wings took bad penalties and that surely impacted it more, but I felt at that point in the game losing Bertuzzi for 5 minutes was not a good trade off. Now the second fight when we were down was a great time to fight for Bertuzzi, he had nothing to lose.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Carman

[newfy 695]

Or we can have a player like Bertuzzi that will fight only when it will benefit us.

And not have a player like Rosehill or S.o.b. that feel they have to fight every game to prove their worth and risk losing a lead because of that momentum shift.

In an ideal world fighting should be used as a way for that player to regulate the game(and in that case would surely like to have a fulltime "enforcer"),but until the instigator rule is taken out I feel the need for a fighter to be non-existent.

Rosehill is an awful example coming off last nights game against Ottawa, the leafs have also almost managed to squeak into playoffs and are playing pretty good hockey since he has been in their line up.

O'Brien has all of 3 fights before last nights game, and he is a solid defenseman as well.

Using these guys as examples really makes me think you have no idea what youre talking about

[Carman 387]

Rosehill is an awful example coming off last nights game against Ottawa, the leafs have also almost managed to squeak into playoffs and are playing pretty good hockey since he has been in their line up.

O'Brien has all of 3 fights before last nights game, and he is a solid defenseman as well.

Using these guys as examples really makes me think you have no idea what youre talking about

You don't have to fight a lot to be a bad hockey player.

He even realizes his issue here.

"The old saying is when you're up you don't fight, but we just made it 3-0, everything was going our way,"

S.o.b. has been taking bad penalties since he was born, and he made a bad decision to fight Bertuzzi I don't consider that to be a "solid defenseman". That's why I wouldn't want him on my team, he can't control himself. Rosehill is just a AHL player in my opinion and is only on the Leafs because he can fight. I just think it's silly to have these one dimensional players on the team, when a hit means much more than a fight most of the time.

[newfy 695]

You don't have to fight a lot to be a bad hockey player.

He even realizes his issue here.

S.o.b. has been taking bad penalties since he was born, and he made a bad decision to fight Bertuzzi I don't consider that to be a "solid defenseman". That's why I wouldn't want him on my team, he can't control himself. Rosehill is just a AHL player in my opinion and is only on the Leafs because he can fight. I just think it's silly to have these one dimensional players on the team, when a hit means much more than a fight most of the time.

Once again you prove you dont know much. Rosehill can skate foor a fighter and throws big hits often. He hits just as much as Abdelkader does in the grand scheme of things and fights a pretty good as well.

Shane O'Brien is a solid number 5 or 6 defenseman, better then Salei for sure. Just because you only see O'brien play against the wings doesn't mean hes like htat against every other team. Hes only got 83 pims this year 2 more then Ericsson while playing a tougher game then Ericsson.

Educate yourself