Hmm something I noticed

[Carman 387]

Once again you prove you dont know much. Rosehill can skate foor a fighter and throws big hits often. He hits just as much as Abdelkader does in the grand scheme of things and fights a pretty good as well.

Shane O'Brien is a solid number 5 or 6 defenseman, better then Salei for sure. Just because you only see O'brien play against the wings doesn't mean hes like htat against every other team. Hes only got 83 pims this year 2 more then Ericsson while playing a tougher game then Ericsson.

Educate yourself

No need for a personal remarks here. I'm a fan of the game just as much as you are.

You may be right on Rosehill, but the key there is "for a fighter". I'd rather judge him as a hockey player, because that is the game they are playing. Abdelkader's potential is just much much higher than Rosehills, couple that with the fact that Abdelkader is younger, plays more, produced at the AHL more, and is just generally a better player in every aspect of the game except for fighting proves to me who is a more valuable asset to a team.

Also, 29 hits in 24 games does not equal 177 hits in 70 games just FYI

Shane O'Brien has improved that's for sure, but his tendency to lose his temper is a huge question mark for me, as it was for the 4 other teams that got rid of him. And that's something that is very hard to change.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Carman

[newfy 695]

No need for a personal remarks here. I'm a fan of the game just as much as you are.

You may be right on Rosehill, but the key there is "for a fighter". I'd rather judge him as a hockey player, because that is the game they are playing. Abdelkader's potential is just much much higher than Rosehills, couple that with the fact that Abdelkader is younger, plays more, produced at the AHL more, and is just generally a better player in every aspect of the game except for fighting proves to me who is a more valuable asset to a team.

Also, 29 hits in 24 games does not equal 177 hits in 70 games just FYI

Shane O'Brien has improved that's for sure, but his tendency to lose his temper is a huge question mark for me, as it was for the 4 other teams that got rid of him. And that's something that is very hard to change.

You can say that about anyone. Eaves can score some goals for a grinder is the same as saying Rosehill is a good hitter for a fighter.

Obviously Abdelkader is better, but Rosehill is a big hitter and is a career 4th liner. Abdelkader has scoring line upside. A better comparison is someone like Rosehill and Miller

[Carman 387]

You can say that about anyone. Eaves can score some goals for a grinder is the same as saying Rosehill is a good hitter for a fighter.

Obviously Abdelkader is better, but Rosehill is a big hitter and is a career 4th liner. Abdelkader has scoring line upside. A better comparison is someone like Rosehill and Miller

And I'd take Miller every day.

Rosehill can't even play on the PK for Toronto, not to mention Detroit. Couple that with the fact that Miller can play double the time that Rosehill (11 minutes compared to 5 minutes a game) does at the NHL level makes it a nobrainer.

If Rosehill can't gain the ice time for a team like Toronto he won't gain the confidence of Babcock playing for the Detroit Red Wings. Rosehill is a fighter, he has no use other wise.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I am against staged hockey fights by 3-minute goons or enforcers that do very little to affect the outcome of the game.

I'm for scraps like yesterdays, or if you are down late in a game and the outcome is all but decided, and you're sending a message that you won't quit.

O'Brien walked a thin line of momentum shifting by fighting Bertuzzi a 2nd time, and he messed up bigtime in accepting yet again.

I like a good scrap, but I don't jump up and down doing backflips waiting for them like some do in here. Would it be nice if this team dropped the gloves more? Sure. Is it mandatory? No. Is my following of the team or me thinking about their "toughness" largely dependent on them dropping the gloves? No.

[Mabuhay Red Wings 177]

Some hockey fights are good but if I really wanted to watch fighting then I would just go watch boxing (points to avatar). Sometimes a hockey fight just turns into a hug fest which can turn into a trying to take down fest, etc. But some aren't as bad and can be quite entertaining when both guys can take a punch and give one back.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Shane O'Brien has really matured since being traded to Nashville. He's much more disciplined than when he played in Anaheim, Tampa, and Vancouver. He's a solid 3rd pairing defenseman, and after seeing him put together a decent season in Nashville, I wouldn't mind seeing Kenny ****** him for somewhere around $750K or so.

[newfy 695]

Well tonights game against Phoenix, Bertuzzi once again sparked the team to a win.

Lidstrom and Datsyuk both mentioned post game that Bertuzzis fight is what really sparked the team and fired them up.

Keep it up Bert

[vangvace 12]

They fell with their gloves off.

[Hiei 192]

BERT IS MAD AND HE'S COMING FOR YOU!!!

3 More Wins until Winnipeg faces the longest summer of waiting in ever.

[Mabuhay Red Wings 177]

The Red Wings scored two goals in a span of 6:14 shortly after the fight and went on to defeat the Phoenix Coyotes 4-2 in Game 1 of the Western Conference quarterfinals.

Whether the fight sparked the team is debatable. But it didn’t hurt.

"After this fight, game flip our way," Pavel Datsyuk said. "Momentum."

Said Brian Rafalski: "Getting back tied was huge, that (fight) maybe was another spark. It put them down to five (defensemen) for a while. We were able to wear them down a couple shifts down there."

Bertuzzi wasn’t looking to start something. He took exception to a hit.

"I didn’t even have the puck and he took a run at me, so I was ready to go," Bertuzzi said. "Unfortunately, I kind of slipped, not much happened out of it, but we got two quick goals.

"I wish it was a little bit better (fight). More prepared next time."

Bertuzzi said the notion that there is no fighting in the playoffs is a myth.

"I think you see it a little more than (people think)," Bertuzzi said. "It’s crunch time. We’re trying to win games. Whatever you can do to help out.

"I think all fans in general like that kind of stuff."

[Guest Shoreline]

The Red Wings scored two goals in a span of 6:14 shortly after the fight and went on to defeat the Phoenix Coyotes 4-2 in Game 1 of the Western Conference quarterfinals.

Whether the fight sparked the team is debatable. But it didn’t hurt.

"After this fight, game flip our way," Pavel Datsyuk said. "Momentum."

Said Brian Rafalski: "Getting back tied was huge, that (fight) maybe was another spark. It put them down to five (defensemen) for a while. We were able to wear them down a couple shifts down there."

Bertuzzi wasn’t looking to start something. He took exception to a hit.

"I didn’t even have the puck and he took a run at me, so I was ready to go," Bertuzzi said. "Unfortunately, I kind of slipped, not much happened out of it, but we got two quick goals.

"I wish it was a little bit better (fight). More prepared next time."

Bertuzzi said the notion that there is no fighting in the playoffs is a myth.

"I think you see it a little more than (people think)," Bertuzzi said. "It’s crunch time. We’re trying to win games. Whatever you can do to help out.

"I think all fans in general like that kind of stuff."

The article you plagiarized is here:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/04/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_apprec.html

I will take exception to it.

First off, Khan ignores the fact that momentum was already going in the Wings favor after several hits, shots, and Pavel's goal. This is backed up in the GDT just before Pavel's goal where the Wings visibly had gained quite a bit of momentum which was showing in their ability to keep the puck in the Coyotes defensive zone for a sustained period, getting decent scoring chances, and throwing their weight around.

Secondly, the fight happened after Bert got pissed at a hit he received. (comparing bolds)

Two goals came later, one of which was at the end of the second, a bit of a distance off from the fight.

If anything, the fight was part of the momentum swing (as in, along for the ride) that occurred less than half way through the 2nd period, not "the fight was the catalyst for scoring goals and creating momentum for some ambiguous and arbitrary period of ice time".

This is quite ridiculous. Pavel speaks from the mindset of an entertainment perspective, because he knows he is part of a product to sell, and he is catering to fans, most of whom, myself included, like to see fights. Nothing wrong with that. I give him credit for having the logic to understand this, but not to most people here who for some reason want to take off out in left field with some wild notion that the Bert fight created momentum, causing this team to win.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Shoreline

[newfy 695]

The article you plagiarized is here:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/04/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_apprec.html

I will take exception to it.

First off, Khan ignores the fact that momentum was already going in the Wings favor after several hits, shots, and Pavel's goal. This is backed up in the GDT just before Pavel's goal where the Wings visibly had gained quite a bit of momentum which was showing in their ability to keep the puck in the Coyotes defensive zone for a sustained period, getting decent scoring chances, and throwing their weight around.

Secondly, the fight happened after Bert got pissed at a hit he received. (comparing bolds)

Two goals came later, one of which was at the end of the second, a bit of a distance off from the fight.

If anything, the fight was part of the momentum swing (as in, along for the ride) that occurred less than half way through the 2nd period, not "the fight was the catalyst for scoring goals and creating momentum for some ambiguous and arbitrary period of ice time".

This is quite ridiculous. Pavel speaks from the mindset of an entertainment perspective, because he knows he is part of a product to sell, and he is catering to fans, most of whom, myself included, like to see fights. Nothing wrong with that. I give him credit for having the logic to understand this, but not to most people here who for some reason want to take off out in left field with some wild notion that the Bert fight created momentum, causing this team to win.

Well it definitely helped swing the momentum quite a bit in Detroits favour, which is a far cry from it being useless or only for fan entertainment like some here think.

If it didnt have some affect on the bench than all those guys wouldn't have mentioned it post game as being a momentum swinger

[Guest Shoreline]

Well it definitely helped swing the momentum quite a bit in Detroits favour, which is a far cry from it being useless or only for fan entertainment like some here think.

If it didnt have some affect on the bench than all those guys wouldn't have mentioned it post game as being a momentum swinger

The key part of a cult-like following is they will find things to latch onto that only supports their viewpoint. I've been surrounded by religion and this kind of stuff since I was born so I pick up on it pretty quickly.

As for momentum, it was already well established to the Wings before the fight, it was established before the Datsyuk goal, which preceded the Bert fight -- again, you can reference the GDT where posters mentioned the Wings had grabbed momentum. If you like I can cite them for you. The fight didn't swing anything at all that wasn't already in the Wings favour.

The only part that is evident is it was very entertaining because the Wings don't fight all that often, even if the fight rather stunk. I have seen fights that have created momentum, but uh, those fights are usually to some degree staged and often follow one team beating another one down on the scoreboard -- Bert's fight followed a hit which he obviously took exception to, which had nothing to do with trying to create momentum. The Wings had just tied the game so there was no need for a fight to "swing momentum". The best case scenario is it added to momentum by entertaining fans, who became louder, and possibly further energizing the team which was already keeping the Coyotes on their heels.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Shoreline

[esteef 2,679]

Even when the actual players and coaches themselves say that fights spark the team to win and definitely swings momentum their way people STILL don't want to believe it. Regardless of the fact that we as viewers can actually see it happening. But hey, they are all just lying to make the fans happy right?

esteef

[mmamolo 287]

I dont get why there is so much bickering going on. Yes, sometimes in a game there is one clear, distinct moment that utterly swings momentum from one teams favor to the others. But usually it's a series of events that occur in succession that creates the momentum swing. Whether that be a big hit, followed by drawing a powerplay which leads to a goal, then a fight etc.

[Guest Shoreline]

Even when the actual players and coaches themselves say that fights spark the team to win and definitely swings momentum their way people STILL don't want to believe it. Regardless of the fact that we as viewers can actually see it happening. But hey, they are all just lying to make the fans happy right?

esteef

If one withholds logic and reasonable deduction for some preferred dogmatic approach to something another person says as if it were biblical scripture and the players/coaches were prophets themselves (Babcock 3:16? Rafalski 12:2?), you're absolutely right.

I often trust the judgment of these people, but to presume that they are correct and not just catering to the people who keep them employed and well-paid as any smart entertainer would do, you would have to assume that:

The Wings had little to no momentum going into the Bert fight, and that it was the Coyotes who had it. A momentum "swing" means a complete shift of momentum.

Now, if you watched the game, or even read the GDT, you would know this is not true. It's not that they are "liars". They certainly could have fed off of the fight to gain more energy and momentum, it was just obvious that there was no momentum swing because the Red Wings already had momentum, quite a substantial amount of it, going into the fight.

Fights that are used to swing momentum tend to come from a score where the team needing the momentum swing is actually losing. In a game where the supposed team necessitating a momentum swing just scored a goal to tie the game, and momentum is already established in their favour, why would they need a fight to swing any momentum at all? If anything, a swing of momentum at that time would favour the Coyotes, not the Red Wings. Ironically, this is why one would ***** at a player for fighting an opponent while their team was winning due to this "momentum shift" theory surrounding fighting. I guess this conveniently will be ignored.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Shoreline

[esteef 2,679]

If one withholds logic and reasonable deduction for some preferred dogmatic approach to something another person says as if it were biblical scripture and the players/coaches were prophets themselves (Babcock 3:16? Rafalski 12:2?), you're absolutely right.

I often trust the judgment of these people, but to presume that they are correct and not just catering to the people who keep them employed and well-paid as any smart entertainer would do, you would have to assume that:

The Wings had little to no momentum going into the Bert fight, and that it was the Coyotes who had it. A momentum "swing" means a complete shift of momentum.

Now, if you watched the game, or even read the GDT, you would know this is not true. It's not that they are "liars". They certainly could have fed off of the fight to gain more energy and momentum, it was just obvious that there was no momentum swing because the Red Wings already had momentum, quite a substantial amount of it, going into the fight.

Fights that are used to swing momentum tend to come from a score where the team needing the momentum swing is actually losing. In a game where the supposed team necessitating a momentum swing just scored a goal to tie the game, and momentum is already established in their favour, why would they need a fight to swing any momentum at all? If anything, a swing of momentum at that time would favour the Coyotes, not the Red Wings. Ironically, this is why one would ***** at a player for fighting an opponent while their team was winning due to this "momentum shift" theory surrounding fighting. I guess this conveniently will be ignored.

At this point you just sound like a child who keeps repeating "Nuh-Uh!" over and over even though they know they are wrong. I don't really care if you believe it or not.

esteef

[WorkingOvertime 536]

At this point you just sound like a child who keeps repeating "Nuh-Uh!" over and over even though they know they are wrong. I don't really care if you believe it or not.

esteef

Agree. Was the fight needed for the Wings to win? Probably not. But it certainly continued the swing of momentum in Detroit's favor and this momentum helped win the game.

Also, the fight asserted that the Wings won't be intimidated by Phoenix 's physical play.

[Guest Shoreline]

I'm starting to feel bad like I'm telling esteef there is no Santa..

Agree. Was the fight needed for the Wings to win? Probably not. But it certainly continued the swing of momentum in Detroit's favor and this momentum helped win the game.

Also, the fight asserted that the Wings won't be intimidated by Phoenix 's physical play.

I agree with the latter. That's a statement of it's own right. On the other hand, if Bert fights as a way to show someone he doesn't like to be hit, that means the team is without his offensive firepower or physical prowess for 5 minutes at the very least, possibly more with the retarded instigator penalty. Obviously Klesla taking Bert off was in the Coyotes' favor in this case.

However, whether or not the fight was needed for the Wings to win is quite irrelevant to me -- it's obvious it wasn't, nor was it the point. I know it's rather pointless to dissect what they are saying, but just for the fun of argument and debate, and because what I'm arguing with is going to no doubt hinge entirely on what people say and not at all on the logical premise of momentum...

Complete momentum shift:

"After this fight, game flip our way," Pavel Datsyuk said. "Momentum."

Versus added spark:

Said Brian Rafalski: "Getting back tied was huge, that (fight) maybe was another spark.

These two are contradicting statements. I would say that Pavel was obviously wrong, and Rafalski was right. It's okay for Pavel to be wrong. Although, given the "maybe" part of it, Raf doesn't seem all that convinced to me.