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Some possible NEEDED changes in the Offseason


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#1 Probie

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 04:37 AM

Ok folks, I'm not one to panic and say the sky is falling, nor am I one to be negative when things get bumpy. So don't flame me. I have some honest suggestions on ways to improve the team after watching them win 3 years ago and see what they need three years later. I have been watching them for about 21 years.

-The team that won the cup in 2008, worked harder then the one today, had more passion and was willing to sacrifice more to get to the next level. FACT.

-The team that won the cup in 2008 has the same main core today, however that core collectively is 3 years OLDER. FACT. Lidstrom, Rafalski, Holmstrom, the elder statesmen of that core have declined in terms of speed and overall ability, while other core players have gotten older but have not only not improved or improved enough to pick up the slack caused by the older core players sliding.

-Management has the idea that they can entice players to sign better deal like contracts if they offer the players the ability to stay longer, offer ntcs etc etc. That reduces the competitiveness of the players as they are not motivated by fear of losing their jobs or getting traded. This weakens the team. FACT. If you look at the benefits of using this approach vs the negatives (better contracts=deeper team vs less motivated and competiveness), I don't think this strategy has really helped them as a team at all. Watching this team last year and especially this year, they are seriously unmotivated. This lack of motivation has to/had to change, but has not. Blame management for not fixing this problem. As well, I feel the team lacks the rah rah, take charge motivating vocal leader needed to whip the players into the right playing form.

-This team is one of the smallest teams in the nhl. FACT. We lose too many battles for the puck. This is the one thing we are hurting for in the SJ series right now.

-3 of 4 of our top prospects that are in line to make the team in the next 2 years are all quite small. We are already too small now, if we inject these players into our lineup in the next 2 years we are going to be even smaller and will be basically manhandled by most teams. FACT. We need an influx of size if these players are to come into the lineup.

-Our team the last few years has been injury prone, and I think of all the liberties taken by other teams because we have no enforcer or even formidable fighter, is mostly or fairly, directly related to this. FACT. A guy like Shawn Thornton or Matt Carkner that could play 40-60 games in a limited fashion would not hurt the team much on the ice in terms of performance but would limit injuries and make our team play more physical much like downey did due to the fact the players feel braver. Less injuries would occur due to proper protection of players.

-Even the rest of our (outside of Lids, Rafs, Homer) core is getting older, and soon will be on the downside with no players close enough in skill to fill those gaps. Lidstrom and rafs are near the end, although they can play quite well still. But they will be gone soon. All of our other good players belonging to that core, Dats, Z, Mule, Cleary, Kronwall, Stuart are all 30 or older. None of these players will improve and in all likelihood have already reached their peak. You need young players coming up to fill these holes, and they don't have anyone good enough skill wise to do so, except Tatar and Smith, and they may not have the potential to match those leaving in skill. You also need a mix of skilled vets and youngsters as the youngsters produce at lesser contracts, enabling more depth. We have all our older top guys locked in at higher contracts, we have no serious deals. Remember having Z at less then 3 mill, mule, hudler etc at bargain basement contracts yet still produced large?! For those reasons, they need to trade an older vet or two for some skilled youth so you have a balance.

-Stop signing older players on the decline to multi year contracts with ntc’s. Limit the 35yr+ signings as well. Holland is suppose to be a genius. Act like one.

-After watching our teams play the sharks the last two years(and a few other teams), its apparent that Detroit lacks proper size, and a bit of speed to deal with SJ in particular. They lose too many puck battles and races to the puck. If you could subtract a few slow guys, and inject a few bigger faster guys, it could make all the difference in the world. Our back end could use some more size and nastiness as well. Lets look at some potential moves. Please don't flame its hard to get trades and values to satisfy everyone's opinions of worth, but I will try.

Adding SOME players I like on Forward(not all): Chris stewart(trade), Jason Chimera(trade), laich(UFA), Erik Cole(UFA), Simon Gagne(UFA), Upshall(UFA), Defensemen like Pitkanin(UFA), Bieksa(UFA), L.Smid(trade), Bogosian(trade), Matt Carkner(trade). These are just some potential moves off the top of my head. I'm not saying we get all of these guys, or these are the only guys we should go for. Guys we should lose, trade or not resign to make spots for players we need to fill certain roles are: Flip, Hudler, Homer(wont happen thought NTC), you could move Bert (but has partial ntc and is still a decent player), miller, ABS. Not sign Erricson, eaves, Draper. Yes i like eaves a bit too(We need to fill needs though). Of course a prospect or two and a few picks could be included in these trades mentioned below to make their values accurate, as its hard for me to judge accurate trade value, people are always ready to pounce and start flaming so hold off. Everyone sees player values differently. Also we might want to move one of our core players that are a little older. Our prospect pool is deep enough to warrant the loss of a prospect and the odd pick to make some of the trades work and would be replenished somewhat if we did move one of the older players.

Player movement during offseason:

*Hudler + Kindl + ~2nd(2011)=Bogosian (might have to add a pick or prospect to make it work)
*Nyquist + flip + pick(if needed)=Chris Stewart (perhaps minor tweaking to make the trade work). yes i like Nyquist too but you have to give to get.
*prospect + ~2nd(2012)=L. Smid (guessing it gets done with minor tweaking)
*Prospect or pick= Chimera(or a Chimera like player, fast and strong, good in the corners, doesn't have to score lots, good on the pk)
*Bertuzzi = prospect or pick. Sorry bert, I would rather move Homer, but he has a ntc, you only have a partial. Probably wont happen, nmc could make this difficult.
*Kronwall=prospects and or picks. I love kronwall, hes a deal at 3mill, and is skilled. It harder to trade the other core players that have ntc or are too old to trade. Pitkanen would be a good replacement or close to.
-> Sign Pitkanin, Laich, Cole, Upshall as UFA's. For a decent back up Josh Harding would be nice as a ufa as well. lets focus on D and forward first though. This is probably a stretch, but all forwards and d mentioned have size, and Cole has speed and size and is physical and capable of winning puck battles. Laich is a big body who can score and win battles. Upshall is also a battler, and great along the boards and can skate decently too and can put some points on the board.



You could have lines like (not set, they can move around):

Cole - Z - Cleary
Mule - Dats - C. Stewart
Upshall - Helm - laich
Chimera - Homer - Mursac
-Role Player and/or Partial Enforcer and/or tough Physical forward.

1st Line is: Cole is 6'2 205 skates well, and can score, Z is Z, Cleary is 6,0 205 and can skate and score. The line can win puck battles and score. Has grit too.
2nd line: Mule is 6'3 220, can skate and score, Dats is Dats, Stewart is 6'2 225 and can score, win battles for the puck. The line has good size, bit of grit, very good skill and overall above average speed.
3rd Line: Upshall is 6' 197 and is fierce in the corners, skates well and can score a bit. Helm is Helm. laich is 6'2 200 and can score a bit and win battles for the puck. The line has two good players with speed with a big body that is not slow and can score. Laich is a UFA.
4th Line: Chimera 6'2 220 is real fast, a physical puck battler, who can pk well. 6' 200 homer is homer who doesn't fit on any line anymore almost, Mursac has blinding speed and some scoring upside, and wont be only a perimeter player but is kinda small. This line has great speed minus homer, and has SOME physicality. A solid fourth line.
13th forward: Somebody that has some decent size and or can fight. Konopka anyone? If we opt to not go for this type of player, perhaps a guy like HTD could make the team and see somewhat limited action, and he at least would bring size to the table (and of course some skill).

Defense:
Lids-Stuart.
rafs-Pitkanen
Bogosian-Smid
Matt Carkner



1st pairing stays the same, Lids and Stuart. No kronwall on the second paring. I mentioned above, that someone from the core gets traded for youth, and or picks, its him, although he isn't perhaps the best one to be moved, but someone from that core while they have decent trade value needs to be moved, I picked him. I like him, but someone has to go, and he has no ntc. Flip has to go, he lacks too much offense we need a better scoring 2nd line center plus he has return value. Pitkanen is a possible free agent pick up. I might be unrealistically getting too many UFA's, but it's possible to get him. Pits is a good defensemen and is 6'3 210 and can help clear the crease, play good d, and generate some offense as well. Bogosian is young and has good potential but is still a little raw, is 6'3 205 and will fill out to 215 or so as he gets older, and has good mobility and ability. It was rumoured during this season he might go to detroit, and the rumoured players were kindl and hudler and a pick. Hes big and strong and loves to hit. Hes not asked to have a top 4 role yet, hes on the bottom pairing for a year till rafs and lids retire. We need bigger players on D to handle bigger forwards that play on teams like the sharks for instance. Smid is 6'3 225 pounds and can hit and shut guys down as well as clear the crease. I don't think he would cost an arm and a leg. Carkner is the physical enforcer/depth Defensemen that can play 30 games a year or something like that. He is the 7th D man. He will help to keep our guys not injured and help clear the crease and handle bigger forwards when he does play without being a total liability on the ice. Our 3rd defensive pairing looks quite good.

Josh Harding might be a decent backup for Howard next year and hes a UFA as well.


Again, we have increased team size(more then any other category), speed, ability to win puck battles, and toughness. I don't think we have hurt our ability to score either. We are still a team of skill. I think we would match up much better with the Sharks if we play them again next year. Bigger forwards would be handled better by our bigger d. Our D might not generate as much offense as this years, but it would still be good, but it would be better suited to handle bigger forwards. Our team would of course be better suited to wear teams down in the playoffs. Also the fresh faces and movement of players would end the comfort zone that has been brought on by prior Redwings management decisions, and would act as a wake up call to all on the team and would certainly help motivate the players to compete better which obviously helps the team. The new players would be motivated to win the cup and this would help rub off on the others.


Again, i don't want to get flamed for trying to be unrealistic in possible trades, I mentioned those trades would most likely need tweaking for them to work. These are not the only players that would help our club in the areas I mentioned we needed help in. There are lots of other options. I don't want to get flamed either for unrealistically picking up too many free agents although I may have, to an extent, listed one too many UFAs for us to realistically pickup. I didn't pick all the premier UFAS, nor all the Mid Tier UFAS, but I picked ones that are possible and fill our certain needs. Roster moves and approx salaries of those picked up require a slight decrease in pay for lidstrom of about 1 mill(might not be possible) and the cap moving up about three mill like has been rumored. Bogosian's salary although not understood by many is not close to three mill like many people think unless he reaches the lofty performance incentives that he wont... his salary would be a nice chunk less.

Anyways I thought I would throw some ideas and observations out, and of course you all are welcome to discuss...

#2 Slabby

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:02 AM

I agree with your points, but those trades are just awful. Highway robbery (in the Wings' favor) on all of 'em. Letting Bogosian or Stewart go for such a crappy return would be reason enough to fire that GM.

#3 P. Marlowe

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:19 AM

I agree with you on many things. Knowing Holland I just don't see that many trades actually happen. I like each and every player on Wings roster and I'd hate to see them leave, but I'd also love to see a hungrier team.

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#4 stinky fish taco

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:56 AM

the wings will be stuck with a lot of the same for next year.

thankfully, there will be major roster change for the 2012-2013 season.

Helm is a perennial Selke candidate

LOL

#5 Broken 16

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:56 AM

Personally... I don't see the reason to continue hanging on to some (most) of the second tier players after they have won a Cup on the Wings with a regular roster spot.


Cleary, Hudler and Flip could all leave town for instance and I'd be fine with it. Defense is a little tougher with Lidstrom's future still up in the air and Rafalski's contract winding down but it wouldn't break my heart to see Stuart and/or Kronwall go too.

#6 Konnan511

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:47 AM

Bogosian is the most overrated player on this forum.

As I've said, just sign Upshall and Laich and Hamrlik in the offseason. Play Mursak full time and we'll be fine.

Imploding a successflu team isn't the answer and will never be an answer.
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#7 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:26 AM

The only trade I would like to see made is Mule- not because I don't like the guy, but I hate his contract length. Otherwise, the Wings will likely wait one more season before making any major changes. At that time, we might see some major improvements.

#8 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:30 AM

I agree with some of your stuff Probie but Holland wouldn't. :(

In Kenny We Trust. Hopefully some moves are made this offseason.

#9 Broken 16

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:36 AM

One needed change will be the end of the Holmstrom era hopefully. He was only effective in front of the net and now the league has basically taken that away from him by targeting him.

#10 VM1138

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:45 AM

Personally... I don't see the reason to continue hanging on to some (most) of the second tier players after they have won a Cup on the Wings with a regular roster spot.


Cleary, Hudler and Flip could all leave town for instance and I'd be fine with it. Defense is a little tougher with Lidstrom's future still up in the air and Rafalski's contract winding down but it wouldn't break my heart to see Stuart and/or Kronwall go too.



Cleary is the hardest working guy on the team and was the leading scorer until he was injured this season. He'll be healthy again next season and I fully expect him to return to that form. I can see trading Flip, I've advocated that for years. He's good but not essential, and we could probably get someone in return who fills one of our pressing needs for him. Quality for quality trade. Hudler I'd like to keep, because he's shown signs of his offensive flair, but again, if we lost him it's not essential as long as we replace him with a 2nd line scorer.

Those are really the only moves I'd make on offense. Obviously we'd need a faceoff specialist in return for one of them, preferably a big body with a long reach to get a cycling game going.

On defense, Ericsson could be traded, but he'd have to be packaged with someone to get anything of value. Our top four is locked up pretty tight, btu we either need a new defensive coach or to trade one of these guys. I hate thinking that because they are all valuable, but it would have to be between Stuart and Kronwall. I'd hate to be the guy pulling the trigger on which one to trade. Hopefully with extra cap space they can sign a Top 4 defenseman for the 5th spot and they can have an even rotation like they had this year.
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#11 mmamolo

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:04 AM

I just like the fact that one of the main gripes the OP had was that the Wings are injury prone and then it goes on the suggest that Holland tries to sign Simon Gagne. Wow
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#12 Broken 16

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:08 AM

Cleary is the hardest working guy on the team and was the leading scorer until he was injured this season. He'll be healthy again next season and I fully expect him to return to that form. I can see trading Flip, I've advocated that for years. He's good but not essential, and we could probably get someone in return who fills one of our pressing needs for him. Quality for quality trade. Hudler I'd like to keep, because he's shown signs of his offensive flair, but again, if we lost him it's not essential as long as we replace him with a 2nd line scorer.

Those are really the only moves I'd make on offense. Obviously we'd need a faceoff specialist in return for one of them, preferably a big body with a long reach to get a cycling game going.

On defense, Ericsson could be traded, but he'd have to be packaged with someone to get anything of value. Our top four is locked up pretty tight, btu we either need a new defensive coach or to trade one of these guys. I hate thinking that because they are all valuable, but it would have to be between Stuart and Kronwall. I'd hate to be the guy pulling the trigger on which one to trade. Hopefully with extra cap space they can sign a Top 4 defenseman for the 5th spot and they can have an even rotation like they had this year.



Of the three I mentioned, Cleary is the one I'd least like to see go. He was just an example. Depending on who is gonna get signed with the Lidstrom money (whenever that happens), I'd prefer to keep Stuart over Kronwall. Kronwall has been kinda neutered by the league too (w/Holmstrom) as many of his hits are now basically on the 'Suspendable List'. BUT... I like Kronners first pass and offensive instinct a lot more. I wouldn't want to pull the trigger on that one either.

Edited by Broken 16, 03 May 2011 - 09:09 AM.


#13 Majsheppard

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:33 AM

To be honest, the only thing the Wings can do is get worse in the short term. They are going to just have to get worse and let the young players make their way into the system and allow salary space to grow before they go after anyone to make them into true contenders again.

It really sucks, because we should be the best team still in it, yet because of our own overconfidence we cant ever capitalize on the few chances we have and teams linger like a bad virus until they get their chances on the power play and then win.

This series should be at least 1-1 and instead it is 0-2. If they would just play full out the whole game they could sweep these sharks, but they will never do that. I blame the coaching staff for that, and I blame the coaches for not locking down pavelski, the only deadly threat to Detroit.
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Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#14 matt198913

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:45 AM

Good god step off the ledge.... It's been 2 games! Pitkinan really Edmonton didn't want him.
What is it with people wanting a player just for fighting. Silliness with that stuff, Bogosian has potential but thats all. You want to get rid of Kronwall too. That makes perfect sense... Lets just get rid of the future number 1 who's already proven he can take Nicks spot. Good god the only one I can agree on is Laich. I wouldn't mind having Brooks Laich at all good physical forward would improve the penalty kill. I'm not saying your look at the team is stupid, at least you want to make some helpful changes. But this is extremely farfetched and too soon for this type post.

Edited by matt198913, 03 May 2011 - 10:54 AM.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#15 nuts2u

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:54 AM

One needed change will be the end of the Holmstrom era hopefully. He was only effective in front of the net and now the league has basically taken that away from him by targeting him.

Homer is second on the team in scoring behind only Datsyuk in the playoffs. I admire his guts to go to the "HARD" areas of the game and wish Franzen had even half of the courage that Homer has displayed over the years. Yes he is getting old and maybe this will be his last season but I for one will really miss him when we no longer have the BEST net front MAN in the game.

#16 blueadams

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:56 AM

-Management has the idea that they can entice players to sign better deal like contracts if they offer the players the ability to stay longer, offer ntcs etc etc. That reduces the competitiveness of the players as they are not motivated by fear of losing their jobs or getting traded. This weakens the team. FACT. If you look at the benefits of using this approach vs the negatives (better contracts=deeper team vs less motivated and competiveness), I don't think this strategy has really helped them as a team at all. Watching this team last year and especially this year, they are seriously unmotivated. This lack of motivation has to/had to change, but has not. Blame management for not fixing this problem. As well, I feel the team lacks the rah rah, take charge motivating vocal leader needed to whip the players into the right playing form.


I don't think this has anything to do with the kind of contracts we're offering...imo...it's more about who we're offering, how we're coaching/motivating them, and who's leading them.

#17 nuts2u

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:57 AM

The only trade I would like to see made is Mule- not because I don't like the guy, but I hate his contract length. Otherwise, the Wings will likely wait one more season before making any major changes. At that time, we might see some major improvements.

I hate the contract and his PASSIVE PLAY.

#18 hooon

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:25 AM

About half of your FACTs are actually just opinions, not actual facts.
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#19 Broken 16

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:33 AM

Homer is second on the team in scoring behind only Datsyuk in the playoffs. I admire his guts to go to the "HARD" areas of the game and wish Franzen had even half of the courage that Homer has displayed over the years. Yes he is getting old and maybe this will be his last season but I for one will really miss him when we no longer have the BEST net front MAN in the game.



He is the best. But he's a target. How many penalties have been called on him because he is Holmstrom? How many goals have been disallowed because he is in the area? Right now, for all his greatness in front of the net, it's a wash because of the league. And since that is pretty much all he brings, I think he is no longer effective enough to warrant a spot. Unless he changes his game (doubtful) or the league changes the Holmstrom Policy (highly doubtful).

#20 HankthaTank

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:36 AM

Bogosian is the most overrated player on this forum.

Boogaard called, he said he wants his title back.
TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS EXPECTED.





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