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#121 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:07 PM

This is a statement that is made anytime we talk about how we need to get younger.

Is he overpaid now? Yes.
Was he overpaid at the time of his signing? Maybe slightly.

Would he get six million if we re-signed him next year? Not a chance.
Are we going to re-sign him? Probably not.

Is he going to get traded? No.

NEXT.

I don't think he was even overpaid at the time of his signing. Sure the term was a little longer than I'd want, but it's likely what Holland had to do to bring him here. He was not in a strong negotiating position.

At the end of the 07 season Schneider jumped ship for $5.6 million with Anaheim, leaving a major hole in the Wings defense. Holland was scrambling for a #2 D-man and found Rafalski who similar to Schneider was a puck-moving defenseman good for 40-50 points (which is what Schneider was until he was paired with Nick and had two career seasons), who fit into the defense puck-moving system in Detroit, was younger than Schneider, a two-time Cup winner, and a local boy to boot.

Everyone wants to kill Rafalski when he makes a bad turnover, but for every one of those there's the tremendous outlet passes and quarterbacking the power play. More than even Lidstrom, Rafalski stretches the Wings offense and keeps the other teams defense honest. Because skating in front of his own net he's capable of rocketing a pass to a forward headed towards the offensive blueline.

Yes the contract looks less good now that we're in the last two years and his play has tapered a bit. But it's unfair to just look at him now and call him overpaid. At the time it was a good signing, and considering how 2008 worked out (and even 2009), it was worth it.

#122 Grayne Wetzky

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:57 PM

I don't think he was even overpaid at the time of his signing. Sure the term was a little longer than I'd want, but it's likely what Holland had to do to bring him here. He was not in a strong negotiating position.

At the end of the 07 season Schneider jumped ship for $5.6 million with Anaheim, leaving a major hole in the Wings defense. Holland was scrambling for a #2 D-man and found Rafalski who similar to Schneider was a puck-moving defenseman good for 40-50 points (which is what Schneider was until he was paired with Nick and had two career seasons), who fit into the defense puck-moving system in Detroit, was younger than Schneider, a two-time Cup winner, and a local boy to boot.

Everyone wants to kill Rafalski when he makes a bad turnover, but for every one of those there's the tremendous outlet passes and quarterbacking the power play. More than even Lidstrom, Rafalski stretches the Wings offense and keeps the other teams defense honest. Because skating in front of his own net he's capable of rocketing a pass to a forward headed towards the offensive blueline.

Yes the contract looks less good now that we're in the last two years and his play has tapered a bit. But it's unfair to just look at him now and call him overpaid. At the time it was a good signing, and considering how 2008 worked out (and even 2009), it was worth it.



If the Wings would have taken 2009, there'd be NO question as to whether or not the signing was a good one. But since Rafalski's injury was a big part of them NOT winning in 2009 and his play over the last 2 years has been noticibly weak in the playoffs, I think it's a valid question to ask if that 30 million could have brought us more with other players.

#123 GMRwings1983

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 05:02 PM

We need more big strong North American guys. I'm tired of these soft Euros. And somebody that can fight please.


:clap:

Finally, you've seen the light. I'm glad you've admitted your follies in the past.

Now it's time for Holland to go out and make it happen.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 15 May 2011 - 05:04 PM.

According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#124 X13WINGS13X

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 07:34 PM

I too, agree with this. If we could get Lucic for Franzen with a cherry on top, I would be satisfied.

#125 eva unit zero

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:42 PM

If the Wings would have taken 2009, there'd be NO question as to whether or not the signing was a good one. But since Rafalski's injury was a big part of them NOT winning in 2009 and his play over the last 2 years has been noticibly weak in the playoffs, I think it's a valid question to ask if that 30 million could have brought us more with other players.


"Man, Rafalski is so overpaid. He makes $6m and couldn't even stay healthy. WTF?"

Rafalski for five years at $6m was an absolute steal when it was signed. He's still a legit #1 defenseman now. He's not top ten like he was, but still very good and still one of the elite offensive defensemen.

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#126 robb himself

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:19 PM

this is what I want to see the Wings look like next season :

1. if we can trade Hudler...
2.Draper, Modano, Miller, and Salei are all gone...
3.Lidstrom Ericsson and Osgood re-sign...




Filppula , Datsyuk , Franzen

Tatar , Zetterberg , Bertuzzi

Cleary , Helm, Eaves

Abdelkader , Emmerton , Mursak

Holmstrom



Lidstrom , Smith

Rafalski, Kronwall

Stuart, Ericsson

Kindl

Howard
Osgood


:thumbup:
be about it!

#127 Berry

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:28 AM

FORWARDS
Brooks Laich ($2.066m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)
Joel Ward ($2.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.750m)
Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.870m)

DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Zach Bogosian ($3.375m)
Brian Rafalski ($6.000m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,237,044; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $2,162,956

#128 InKennyWeTrust

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:50 AM

I'm as giddy as a school girl about Tatar's potential but does anyone seriously think he can make the jump to an NHL 2nd line at the age of 21? A guy that's 5'11" - 176 needs to have a very refined game before he can make an impact.

St. Louis isn't good just because he's fast, he's good because he sees the ice and knows the holes to exploit in order to make a play. I'm not saying Tatar would be completely terrible in that role now but I think that if he's given another half a year or year to develop, things may go much more smoothly when he's called up.

#129 Grayne Wetzky

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:55 AM

FORWARDS
Brooks Laich ($2.066m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)
Joel Ward ($2.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.750m)
Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.870m)

DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Zach Bogosian ($3.375m)
Brian Rafalski ($6.000m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,237,044; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $2,162,956



First, this would take a lot of maneuvering to pull off. 2nd, Brendan Smith is a COLLEGE hockey player, so no way he comes up over Kindl and Ericsson. 3rd, you've got a 20 man roster and the Wings need a 23 man roster.

REDO

I'm as giddy as a school girl about Tatar's potential but does anyone seriously think he can make the jump to an NHL 2nd line at the age of 21? A guy that's 5'11" - 176 needs to have a very refined game before he can make an impact.

St. Louis isn't good just because he's fast, he's good because he sees the ice and knows the holes to exploit in order to make a play. I'm not saying Tatar would be completely terrible in that role now but I think that if he's given another half a year or year to develop, things may go much more smoothly when he's called up.



Mursak and Tatar have one more year to develop. Bozo Holland signed Bertuzzi and Holmstrom one year too long, so those spots will not be for Tatar and Mursak's NHL development next year. The only thing we can hope for is Bertuzzi and Holmstrom to miss time from the line-up for whatever reasons. I don't want them to get seriously injured, but I definitely wouldn't mind seeing them healthy scratched for half the games so the youngsters could play.

#130 Autika

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:12 AM

Perhaps I'm just being foolish here, but I do not understand why everyone is so eager to see Miller leave. I think he and Eaves are great together and reasonably priced for a defensively strong grind line. Sure he's not a 50 point player, but he stays reasonably healthy, plays hard in the corners, and he doesn't cost us that many penalties.

#131 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:43 AM

Perhaps I'm just being foolish here, but I do not understand why everyone is so eager to see Miller leave. I think he and Eaves are great together and reasonably priced for a defensively strong grind line. Sure he's not a 50 point player, but he stays reasonably healthy, plays hard in the corners, and he doesn't cost us that many penalties.

I don't know that anyone is eager to see Miller leave. Just that he is among the more expendable or replaceable.

#132 achildr1

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:40 PM


"Man, Rafalski is so overpaid. He makes $6m and couldn't even stay healthy. WTF?"

Rafalski for five years at $6m was an absolute steal when it was signed. He's still a legit #1 defenseman now. He's not top ten like he was, but still very good and still one of the elite offensive defensemen.


Legit #1 defenseman? I was under the impression that elite defenseman can play defense. After watching him this playoff I thinly he's as close to being a PP specialist dman like Foster or Bergeron than he is to be an elite all-around guy like Lidstrom.

He may be the legit #1 guy on Florida or Columbus but that's more of a slight to them then an affirmation of talent to Rafalski.

I don't know that anyone is eager to see Miller leave. Just that he is among the more expendable or replaceable.


This. Miller game is more easily replaced by a younger, potential-laden prospect than any other players. Just so happens that we have to decide whether we should keep Emmerton and Mursak on the team next year and I for one hope that Miller doesn't get the spot over either one of them.

#133 Heaten

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:17 PM

I'm as giddy as a school girl about Tatar's potential but does anyone seriously think he can make the jump to an NHL 2nd line at the age of 21? A guy that's 5'11" - 176 needs to have a very refined game before he can make an impact.

St. Louis isn't good just because he's fast, he's good because he sees the ice and knows the holes to exploit in order to make a play. I'm not saying Tatar would be completely terrible in that role now but I think that if he's given another half a year or year to develop, things may go much more smoothly when he's called up.


Tatar is not NHL ready. He's not an upgrade to what we already [can] have (Draper, Miller, Eaves). Tatar would quickly become LGWs whipping boy if he played a full season this year. he's shown spurts of brilliance, but is a year or two away from cracking the big league. I don't project Tatar to be more than a 3rd liner for 3-5 years after he cracks the NHL. He might become a 2nd liner one day, but I don't think he has more offensive upside than Filippula has right now.

Mursak and Helm should anchor the 4th line for now. Abdelkader/Filpulla/Hudler will probably be our 3rd line with the 1st and 2nd line staying the same.

#134 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:53 PM

I told myself I wasn't going to do this but after my car getting egged today I needed an escape from reality. This is fluid obviously and using the estimated Cap Increase. There is a $3 Million Dollar cushion just in case something were to happen e.g. Howard gets hurt, Lidstrom wants $6 Million etc.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m)
Alex Tanguay ($1.900m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)
Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m)
Zenon Konopka ($0.680m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.900m)
/ / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($5.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($3.750m) / Anton Babchuk ($1.600m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Joey MacDonald ($0.650m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,163,711; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,036,289

#135 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:00 PM

I told myself I wasn't going to do this but after my car getting egged today I needed an escape from reality. This is fluid obviously and using the estimated Cap Increase. There is a $3 Million Dollar cushion just in case something were to happen e.g. Howard gets hurt, Lidstrom wants $6 Million etc.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m)
Alex Tanguay ($1.900m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)
Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m)
Zenon Konopka ($0.680m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.900m)
/ / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($5.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($3.750m) / Anton Babchuk ($1.600m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Joey MacDonald ($0.650m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,163,711; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,036,289

I'd be happy with Konopka, but I think Tanguay is a bit of a risk. He had a decent season, but he's injury prone and quite streaky at times. As far as Christian Erhoff, i'm not so sure Vancouver will let him walk, guess it all depends on their cap situation. I'm pretty sure either him or Kevin Bieksa will be let go.
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#136 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:06 PM

I'd be happy with Konopka, but I think Tanguay is a bit of a risk. He had a decent season, but he's injury prone and quite streaky at times. As far as Christian Erhoff, i'm not so sure Vancouver will let him walk, guess it all depends on their cap situation. I'm pretty sure either him or Kevin Bieksa will be let go.

I figured with Konopka he could bring the toughness element to a team that needs it. Regarding Tanguay I deliberated this one long and hard between him and Erik Cole but part of it had to with the fact that I know Ehrhoff is going to be expensive so I figured the less money we spent for a second line Forward the more we could spend on Erhoff. Just my thinking but bringing in a Konopka type is key.

#137 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:13 PM

I figured with Konopka he could bring the toughness element to a team that needs it. Regarding Tanguay I deliberated this one long and hard between him and Erik Cole but part of it had to with the fact that I know Ehrhoff is going to be expensive so I figured the less money we spent for a second line Forward the more we could spend on Erhoff. Just my thinking but bringing in a Konopka type is key.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cole stayed in Carolina. Who knows how many offers Tanguay will get. His "Market value" probably increased over the year. I agree that a tough gritty guy is key. Other than a few minor moves, I don't see a ton happening.
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#138 eva unit zero

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:12 PM

Legit #1 defenseman? I was under the impression that elite defenseman can play defense. After watching him this playoff I thinly he's as close to being a PP specialist dman like Foster or Bergeron than he is to be an elite all-around guy like Lidstrom.

He may be the legit #1 guy on Florida or Columbus but that's more of a slight to them then an affirmation of talent to Rafalski.


Are there 30 defensemen better than Rafalski? No. That makes him a #1. I can't understand why people don't get this; it's really not hard.

1-30 = #1
31-60 = #2

And so on.

The Wings have three defensemen who are definitely in the #1 or #2 spot and can probably be considered #1. Lidstrom, Kronwall, and Rafalski. Being a #1 doesn't mean you are the #1. A team can have 4 #2 defensemen and no #1, and that doesn't make one guy a #1, one guy a #3, and one guy a #4.

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#139 hooon

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:39 PM


Are there 30 defensemen better than Rafalski? No. That makes him a #1. I can't understand why people don't get this; it's really not hard.

1-30 = #1
31-60 = #2

And so on.

The Wings have three defensemen who are definitely in the #1 or #2 spot and can probably be considered #1. Lidstrom, Kronwall, and Rafalski. Being a #1 doesn't mean you are the #1. A team can have 4 #2 defensemen and no #1, and that doesn't make one guy a #1, one guy a #3, and one guy a #4.


So... that makes Hudler like a #230492340985648934585672161549303048488847626348273475784329823472 on the offensive depth chart?




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#140 RockyMountainWingGal

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:48 PM

If the Wings would have taken 2009, there'd be NO question as to whether or not the signing was a good one. But since Rafalski's injury was a big part of them NOT winning in 2009 and his play over the last 2 years has been noticibly weak in the playoffs, I think it's a valid question to ask if that 30 million could have brought us more with other players.

Raffy didn't play in the Duck's series and we won that one (barely) in 7 games (he may have come back the last game or 2?) - he played in the WCF and SCFs. I fail to see how his injury hurt the Wing's chances of winning the Cup then. Pavel's injury (and perhaps Nicks) was far more devastating. (or just revert to Hossa not showing up).

It's tough to say - I think he played a big part in the Wings having a successful regular season (1 seed) and phenomenal Cup run in 2008. Maybe we don't win if another D-man is signed and doesn't quite work out. He, like several other Wings now, seems to be injury prone in the last years of his contract. Let's see what we are sayin about Franzen in 10 years. <_<
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