Hudler's Future

[eva unit zero 271]

No. Just... no.

129th in the league in assists. 253rd in the league in goals scored.

Or have you some definition of "playmaker" that would involve not generating either goals or assists?

A playmaker is a player who initiates a play designed to create a scoring opportunity. That pretty much describes Hudler word for word. Think about the many times you've seen Hudler behind the net or off to the side, and set up a play and get the puck to Filppula, or Franzen, or perhaps Drew Miller or Justin Abdelkader? I've seen Hudler create goals from nothing in that situation, I've also seen-many times-guys take a good feed and fire it wide of the net, or into the logo, or whatever. Scoring chances don't always end up as goals.

And as for the numbers...

Hudler's assist numbers rank him tied for 129th in the league. But everyone else near him or above him is a defenseman or plays top-six forward time. If Hudler were to get that kind of time, he'd see his assists creep north of the 40 mark based on assists-per-minute. And that doesn't even factor in the time he played on the fourth line, with guys like Miller and Helm instead of playing with guys like Franzen and Datsyuk like most of the assist leaders.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

A playmaker is a player who initiates a play designed to create a scoring opportunity. That pretty much describes Hudler word for word. Think about the many times you've seen Hudler behind the net or off to the side, and set up a play and get the puck to Filppula, or Franzen, or perhaps Drew Miller or Justin Abdelkader? I've seen Hudler create goals from nothing in that situation, I've also seen-many times-guys take a good feed and fire it wide of the net, or into the logo, or whatever. Scoring chances don't always end up as goals.

And as for the numbers...

Hudler's assist numbers rank him tied for 129th in the league. But everyone else near him or above him is a defenseman or plays top-six forward time. If Hudler were to get that kind of time, he'd see his assists creep north of the 40 mark based on assists-per-minute. And that doesn't even factor in the time he played on the fourth line, with guys like Miller and Helm instead of playing with guys like Franzen and Datsyuk like most of the assist leaders.

He also plays against weaker competition.

A top tier playmaker is a top tier playmaker regardless of what line he is on, Eva. Hudler is not a player you want going up against the teams' top shut down players (many of who like to play the body to provide pressure) and in no way would his numbers magically increase based on getting top line time.

"But Doc! You seem to forget the sample size I provided earlier in this thread! That shows Hudler is one of the best playmakers in the league!"

[ComradeWasabi 109]

A playmaker is a player who initiates a play designed to create a scoring opportunity. That pretty much describes Hudler word for word. Think about the many times you've seen Hudler behind the net or off to the side, and set up a play and get the puck to Filppula, or Franzen, or perhaps Drew Miller or Justin Abdelkader? I've seen Hudler create goals from nothing in that situation, I've also seen-many times-guys take a good feed and fire it wide of the net, or into the logo, or whatever. Scoring chances don't always end up as goals.

And as for the numbers...

Hudler's assist numbers rank him tied for 129th in the league. But everyone else near him or above him is a defenseman or plays top-six forward time. If Hudler were to get that kind of time, he'd see his assists creep north of the 40 mark based on assists-per-minute. And that doesn't even factor in the time he played on the fourth line, with guys like Miller and Helm instead of playing with guys like Franzen and Datsyuk like most of the assist leaders.

You see, this is where I find your logic flawed. Hudler has always been able to make the most out of very little on this team - limited ice time, playing on the bottom two lines. He performed admirably in this role in the 2008 playoffs. However, apart from his hot streak with Datsyuk and Cleary this year, he has been Consistently Inconsistent © when given top-six ice time. He has been given chances and has never shown himself to be an invaluable and irreplaceable asset on the top two lines.

Regardless of the Red Wings' own lines, Hudler's game simply has too many holes to compete against other teams' top-sixes. He is too small, too slow, not strong enough, not good enough defensively to bring it on a consistent basis against players who are bigger, meaner, and faster than him. He can make plays, but far too often his size and speed restrictions, coupled with either his inability or his unwillingness to win tough battles for pucks, make him an easy target. When he has time, he can make some great passes, and he's quite good at capitalizing on defensive miscues and finding what space is available on the ice. Unfortunately, he rarely gets the kind of time to make passes that he needs when playing against the opposing teams' best players. For that reason, I don't believe he can cut it on the first two lines.

Just because he is small doesn't make him ineffective; Marty St. Louis is Exhibit A for small players being successful. The difference is that Marty has great wheels, is certainly a better playmaker than Hudler, and in my opinion St Louis simply plays harder than Hudler and wants to win more badly than Hudler does.

I don't know why I bothered to make this post, I doubt you're going to listen to anything I've said anyways.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

U mad Crymson?

[eva unit zero 271]

You see, this is where I find your logic flawed. Hudler has always been able to make the most out of very little on this team - limited ice time, playing on the bottom two lines. He performed admirably in this role in the 2008 playoffs. However, apart from his hot streak with Datsyuk and Cleary this year, he has been Consistently Inconsistent © when given top-six ice time. He has been given chances and has never shown himself to be an invaluable and irreplaceable asset on the top two lines.

Hudler spent most of this past season on the third or fourth line. When he was on one of the top two lines he was scoring. There's no "Consistently Inconsistent" about it. He was consistently scoring when he was in the top six. He scored 26 points in 28 games playing in the top six. Included in there was a six-game point streak. Maybe he's not irreplaceable. Neither is Flip. Neither is Franzen. Doesn't mean they aren't top-six forwards.

How about put Hudler back in the top six, don't just kill a great line because one player isn't playing well. I still don't understand that move. Hudler is doing horribly to start the year, Hudler gets shuffled around, 4th line, scratched. Franzen is doing equally horribly later in the season, so he is immediately slotted with Datsyuk, breaking up the line that was winning the team games. It makes very little sense. One player is punished for failure, another is rewarded.

[eva unit zero 271]

Cleary can be at par and better with Franzen. Some times.

But neither Fil or Hudler are at the same level as Franzen. Give your head a shake.

Franzen brings size, which he doesn't really utilize, and a good shot. Filppula is very good all-around, and Hudler is a great playmaker with a wicked shot. The fact of the matter is, if I had to fill out my team with one of the three, and then a bunch of Drew Miller clones, I would pick Flip. Franzen needs a playmaker. He can be a great goal scorer, but he needs a playmaker. That's his big weakness; he has to have someone to feed him. I would argue that is at least as big a weakness as Hudler's skating. And defensively Franzen has given up that edge he had in his own zone, so there's no advantage for Franzen over Hudler. We're basically talking do we want someone who can pass really well and shoot, or someone who can shoot really well but needs a passer? And Flip's defense is why he doesn't belong in this conversation; he's close to that level offensively, and provides excellent defense.

[Guest Crymson]

A playmaker is a player who initiates a play designed to create a scoring opportunity. That pretty much describes Hudler word for word. Think about the many times you've seen Hudler behind the net or off to the side, and set up a play and get the puck to Filppula, or Franzen, or perhaps Drew Miller or Justin Abdelkader? I've seen Hudler create goals from nothing in that situation, I've also seen-many times-guys take a good feed and fire it wide of the net, or into the logo, or whatever. Scoring chances don't always end up as goals.

I've seen Hudler rarely be able to cycle the puck in the zone, because he's too slow and gets belted off the puck by the other team far too easily. I've seen him spend time behind the net and not get a chance off for crap. And I've seen him give up wide-open scoring chances because he'd rather make an often-ineffective pass instead.

I think you're seeing things that aren't there.

And as for the numbers...

Hudler's assist numbers rank him tied for 129th in the league. But everyone else near him or above him is a defenseman or plays top-six forward time. If Hudler were to get that kind of time, he'd see his assists creep north of the 40 mark based on assists-per-minute. And that doesn't even factor in the time he played on the fourth line, with guys like Miller and Helm instead of playing with guys like Franzen and Datsyuk like most of the assist leaders.

As noted by others, your logic is horribly flawed.

Franzen brings size, which he doesn't really utilize, and a good shot. Filppula is very good all-around, and Hudler is a great playmaker with a wicked shot. The fact of the matter is, if I had to fill out my team with one of the three, and then a bunch of Drew Miller clones, I would pick Flip. Franzen needs a playmaker. He can be a great goal scorer, but he needs a playmaker. That's his big weakness; he has to have someone to feed him. I would argue that is at least as big a weakness as Hudler's skating. And defensively Franzen has given up that edge he had in his own zone, so there's no advantage for Franzen over Hudler. We're basically talking do we want someone who can pass really well and shoot, or someone who can shoot really well but needs a passer? And Flip's defense is why he doesn't belong in this conversation; he's close to that level offensively, and provides excellent defense.

Wicked shot, eh? lol. That shot hardly got him any goals this season. He often passes when he should shoot, and he misses or hits the goalie on good scoring chances.

Franzen is FAR better than Hudler defensively. Unlike Hudler, he's also capable of holding onto the puck under pressure. If anyone catches up to Hudler in the offensive zone, he'll almost certainly get knocked off the puck. Not so with Franzen. Franzen needs a playmaker to score, you say? Why, gee, that makes him like the vast majority of goal-scorers out there.

Eva, all you seem to consider in this situation is "Oh, he can get points." Besides the fact that that really isn't very true--or at least it was very untrue this season--Hudler has numerous disadvantages that Franzen, Cleary, Filppula and others on the team don't. He's unlikely to score against the opponent's top two lines, and he's certainly somebody I would never want on the ice playing defense against those lines.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Crymson

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I never claimed him to be a superstar, and the 105 points was the pace he scored at over an 11-game period. It's good that I keep track of this because you guys sure get lost.

This is what you fail to understand, or just refuse to accept.

YOU may not say these exact words or claimed him to be, but your PERCEPTION is what people remember most on here, whether that is fair or not, right or wrong. People here are always going to remember your PERCEPTION of Hudler first, and that is what is beyond annoying about your responses. And just because people see your PERCEPTION first doesn't make anybody in here stupid or less smart.

I don't give a damn that you like Hudler if we just leave it at that. Nor should anybody else, and if they do, that's their problem. I like him, and if he stays on the team next season and does better, cool beans, I'll be happy for him.

But you want to stop getting dumped on regarding him? Don't give off anything that PERCEIVES Hudler getting 100+ points or any other absurd stat numbers or making him out to be somebody he isn't, and people won't lash out at you. Not many people in the end are going to care about all the number crunching and stats. It's more about the PERCEPTION you give off, as opposed to any facts or numbers you give.

May not always be right or fair, but that's the reality of the deal and your posts.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

I never claimed him to be a superstar, and the 105 points was the pace he scored at over an 11-game period. It's good that I keep track of this because you guys sure get lost.

If Franzen kept scoring at the pace he did in the 5 goal Ottawa game, he was scoring at a 410 goal pace. Tough to ignore this, or you might be totally dumbfounded to wrap your head around that one.

Now see how that sounds???

EDIT: Crymson is a Rhodes Scholar

Edited May 27, 2011 by HankthaTank

[Mitchmac33 103]

We all do realize that Darren Helm and Patrick Eaves outscored Hudler this season right? Oh, and they played 4th line minutes. I guess you are right, anyone (this case being Hudler) can put points up with Datsyuk.

[Konnan511 1,736]

We all do realize that Darren Helm and Patrick Eaves outscored Hudler this season right? Oh, and they played 4th line minutes. I guess you are right, anyone (this case being Hudler) can put points up with Datsyuk.

I had to look, but you meant they both scored more goals than Hudler, because Hudler had more points. Yah, it's weird that two guys who majorly play on the PK and 4th line were able to score more goals than Hudler...

[Mitchmac33 103]

Z, Dats, and Flip are all better than Franzen. Hudler and Cleary are basically even with Franzen. Cleary and Franzen are both very average at passing and playmaking, while Hudler is among the best in the league in that regard. Cleary is easily the best skater and defensive forward of the three, and Franzen has the most monstrous goal-scoring ability. But overall, the three of them are on basically the same level.

Ok, let's look this over.

1. If a player is really good at one thing, does that make him a superstar? No.

2. There are only a handful of players who are as good or better playmakers than Hudler.

Perhaps Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Thornton, D.Sedin, H.Sedin, Savard, Getzlaf, Toews, Kopitar, Koivu, Gomez, Spezza, Malkin, St.Louis, Backstrom. There might be one or two more I can't think of offhand, but that list should be pretty close. That's among forwards.

In other words; Hudler is not a superstar, he's just a very good playmaker. Just as Franzen is not a superstar, he is just a very good sniper.

Among would include Hudler in this group of "elite" playmakers. And this group of "elite" playmakers would be called super stars. So now you have been caught in your own contradiction. no?

[Red Wings Addict 787]

So now you have been caught in your own contradiction. no?

Does such a thing even exist in Hudler world?

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Does such a thing even exist in Hudler world?

The 11 game point binge this season says anything is possible in this world.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

On too many nights, his "office" was the press box.

[Casey 145]

Franzen brings size, which he doesn't really utilize, and a good shot. Filppula is very good all-around, and Hudler is a great playmaker with a wicked shot. The fact of the matter is, if I had to fill out my team with one of the three, and then a bunch of Drew Miller clones, I would pick Flip. Franzen needs a playmaker. He can be a great goal scorer, but he needs a playmaker. That's his big weakness; he has to have someone to feed him. I would argue that is at least as big a weakness as Hudler's skating. And defensively Franzen has given up that edge he had in his own zone, so there's no advantage for Franzen over Hudler. We're basically talking do we want someone who can pass really well and shoot, or someone who can shoot really well but needs a passer? And Flip's defense is why he doesn't belong in this conversation; he's close to that level offensively, and provides excellent defense.

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.

2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.

2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.

2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?

[HankthaTank 1,100]

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

Had me lol'ing right there....

[Red Wings Addict 787]

Had me lol'ing right there....

I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Jiri Hudler but even the man himself can't be that blind.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

You guys are getting trolled so hard.

[Casey 145]

Yeah, don't care. Having fun with it.

[Guest Crymson]

You guys are getting trolled so hard.

If only it were that simple...

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.

2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.

2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.

2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?

Let's not forget that in 2008-2009, he was playing on a line with Filppula and Samuelsson most of the time. In other words, he was playing on a fairly packed scoring line against other teams` third lines.

[Konnan511 1,736]

You guys are getting trolled so hard.

Best post of this entire thread.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

A reply to Drake_Marcus, complete with a picture of another Drake? I'm reeling; nice touch.

[eva unit zero 271]

Among would include Hudler in this group of "elite" playmakers. And this group of "elite" playmakers would be called super stars. So now you have been caught in your own contradiction. no?

That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

[Nevermind 363]

Sorry, nevermind.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Nevermind