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Hudler's Future


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#241 Casey

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:10 PM

Franzen brings size, which he doesn't really utilize, and a good shot. Filppula is very good all-around, and Hudler is a great playmaker with a wicked shot. The fact of the matter is, if I had to fill out my team with one of the three, and then a bunch of Drew Miller clones, I would pick Flip. Franzen needs a playmaker. He can be a great goal scorer, but he needs a playmaker. That's his big weakness; he has to have someone to feed him. I would argue that is at least as big a weakness as Hudler's skating. And defensively Franzen has given up that edge he had in his own zone, so there's no advantage for Franzen over Hudler. We're basically talking do we want someone who can pass really well and shoot, or someone who can shoot really well but needs a passer? And Flip's defense is why he doesn't belong in this conversation; he's close to that level offensively, and provides excellent defense.


So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.
2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.
2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.
2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?
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Ceterum autem censeo, Hudler esse delendam.

#242 HankthaTank

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:12 PM

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

Had me lol'ing right there.... Posted Image
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#243 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:31 PM

Had me lol'ing right there.... Posted Image


I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Jiri Hudler but even the man himself can't be that blind.

#244 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 03:09 PM

You guys are getting trolled so hard.
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#245 Casey

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 04:25 PM

Yeah, don't care. Having fun with it.
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Ceterum autem censeo, Hudler esse delendam.

#246 Crymson

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 04:27 PM

You guys are getting trolled so hard.


If only it were that simple...

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.
2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.
2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.
2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?


Let's not forget that in 2008-2009, he was playing on a line with Filppula and Samuelsson most of the time. In other words, he was playing on a fairly packed scoring line against other teams` third lines.

#247 Konnan511

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 09:57 PM

You guys are getting trolled so hard.


Best post of this entire thread.

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#248 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 03:32 PM

A reply to Drake_Marcus, complete with a picture of another Drake? I'm reeling; nice touch.

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#249 eva unit zero

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:30 AM

Among would include Hudler in this group of "elite" playmakers. And this group of "elite" playmakers would be called super stars. So now you have been caught in your own contradiction. no?


That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

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#250 Nevermind

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:46 AM

Sorry, nevermind.

Edited by Nevermind, 31 May 2011 - 12:54 AM.


#251 eva unit zero

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:46 AM

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.
2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.
2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.
2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?


In 08-09, Hudler posted first-line numbers splitting time between the third and fourth lines. If he had played first-line ice time, based on Dats and Z, his even strength scoring would have added 6 goals and 4 assists to total out at 29g-38a-67pt. That would have put him 39th, 47th, 42nd. Still based on third line cohorts. Crank up the scoring a little bit, maybe 3 goals and 10 assists to represent skill level difference in linemates. That's 32g-48a-85pt, putting him 23rd, 22nd, and 13th. He probably would have been more like 14th or 15th as Dats and Z would have still been higher, but that's just a rough estimate. You figure out the kind of effect YOU think Datsyuk has on Hudler. After all, Hudler couldn't have possibly scored anywhere near 4g-10a-14pt in 11 without Datsyuk according to you, right?

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#252 Konnan511

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:52 AM

That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.


The problem with Hudler, though, is that he shouldn't have to play with Datsyuk type player to produce. He's had numerous chances over the years with top notch players. Hudler only spent 15% of his ice time at even strength with players you'd classify as 4th liners, the rest of the time he was with good players and he could not produce with them.

In the Regular season, Hudler got ~27% of his even strength points while playing with Datsyuk. In comparison, Filppula got ~25% of his points on a line with Franzen and Bertuzzi and only 2% of his pints with Datsyuk. If Filppula and Hudler are both playmakers, why is it that Filppula is able to carry lines and his max potential around LGW is 40-60 points, but Hudler is somehow able to reach 80-100 with you? A player needs to elevate their games while with other players not named Datsyuk, and Hudler can't do that. Filppula got over 50% of his points with Bertuzzi as a linemate, I mean, come on now.

Edited by Konnan511, 31 May 2011 - 12:56 AM.

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#253 Nevermind

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:53 AM

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.


I'm starting to think you're messing with all of us...

Even if Hudler played 20 minutes a night with Datsyuk, he won't come even close to putting up these numbers in the playoffs.

GP G A P +/-

16 13 5 18 13
23 12 11 23 8
12 6 12 18 8


Who's jealous?

#254 Crymson

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 01:11 AM


In 08-09, Hudler posted first-line numbers splitting time between the third and fourth lines. If he had played first-line ice time, based on Dats and Z, his even strength scoring would have added 6 goals and 4 assists to total out at 29g-38a-67pt. That would have put him 39th, 47th, 42nd. Still based on third line cohorts. Crank up the scoring a little bit, maybe 3 goals and 10 assists to represent skill level difference in linemates. That's 32g-48a-85pt, putting him 23rd, 22nd, and 13th. He probably would have been more like 14th or 15th as Dats and Z would have still been higher, but that's just a rough estimate. You figure out the kind of effect YOU think Datsyuk has on Hudler. After all, Hudler couldn't have possibly scored anywhere near 4g-10a-14pt in 11 without Datsyuk according to you, right?


Hudler played most of '08-'09 on the third line with Filppula and Samuelsson, who would be second-liners on any other team. In other words, he was playing with second-line players against third-line and third-pairing opposition. Those who play on the top two lines often must face off against very good defenders on the top two lines and top two pairings of the other team. Hudler, instead, was playing alongside very talented players against--generally--less-talented forwards and the third defense pairing of the opposition.

Hudler was also a fixture on the power play in that season, and almost exactly 50% of his points (28 of 57) were scored there.

Please stop trying to warp the stats, Eva.

#255 Datsyerberger

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 03:07 AM

Just to play devil's advocate (eva, you're the devil fyi), eva does bring up a fair point even if his numbers are arguably inflated (and seeing as the last few pages have been arguing the amount of inflation I'm going to leave that part alone).

Hudler does have both incredibly good vision and pretty good offensive tools (stickhandling, passing, shot, all of which could belong to a top 3 player that had sufficient other tools). However, because of his negative qualities (small size, low strength, unreliable skating, questionable commitment -- all to fairly notable degrees), he doesn't have the ability to produce on his own except against inferior competition. His offensive tools may be great, but he cannot reliably get to and maintain a scoring or offensive position. Obviously, inferior linemates are also going to further impact his already disadvantaged playmaking in this scenario and lead to crap production.

Stick him with linemates who can carry the play and suck attention of defenders onto them, on the other hand, and you do have an extremely potent offensive threat in Hudler. Give him enough space and you've got someone with the offense of a top 3 forward, playmaking and finish, for a 2nd/3rd line tweener's contract.

Filppula is quite different. He's not as good of a stickhandler or shooter as Hudler, doesn't have the same vision, doesn't shoot as much when he's in a good shooting position. However, he can skate, he can protect the puck better, his work ethic is likely better.. he doesn't have the tools to set up or finish at a top-3 point producing level no matter who you put him with, but he does have enough tools to make something out of nothing in most situations.

How apt that these comparisons are fairly comparable to a couple players on another recent cup winner, namely Bolland and Versteeg on the Hawks during their win.

Players like Filppula and Bolland are the sort of core players you build around after your stars, players like Hudler and Versteeg are the sort you add to a contender to make their offensive threat overwhelming. Is it any surprise that Filppula and Bolland continue to be core parts of their team while one of Hudler & Versteeg has been to Europe then scratched/shuffled all over the place, and the other has bounced several times in the last few months, even though the latter two have the best 2 offensive seasons out of all of them (on SCF-quality teams in those particular seasons)?

And what does this mean for Hudler?

If our team is sufficiently deep, use him as a PP specialist while playing him on a 3rd scoring line that might include occasional time with star forwards during hot streaks. If our team is not sufficiently deep, trade him and use the cap/roster space to acquire a forward that more accurately fits a bottom 6 role... or hold onto him in the hopes that the team can become the former while he's still on the roster. His current contract is just about right for the offense he can generate.. on the right team, that is. As a Wings fan, I prefer to keep Hudler -- or rather, I prefer a team that has the offensive depth to properly utilize a player such as Hudler. In the post-cap world, those teams are cup contenders.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 31 May 2011 - 03:14 AM.

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#256 Mitchmac33

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 02:22 PM

That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.


Even if it is based purely on their playmaking skill, all the players mentioned are stars in this league. Can you honestly expect to compare Jiri Hudler to these ppl and call them equal and not have people jump all over you?

As for the second part of your post, did i mention that both Helm and Eaves scored more goals than Hudler this year, playing exclusive 4th line minutes and pk?

#257 eva unit zero

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 12:35 AM

Hudler played most of '08-'09 on the third line with Filppula and Samuelsson, who would be second-liners on any other team. In other words, he was playing with second-line players against third-line and third-pairing opposition. Those who play on the top two lines often must face off against very good defenders on the top two lines and top two pairings of the other team. Hudler, instead, was playing alongside very talented players against--generally--less-talented forwards and the third defense pairing of the opposition.

Hudler was also a fixture on the power play in that season, and almost exactly 50% of his points (28 of 57) were scored there.

Please stop trying to warp the stats, Eva.


I only adjusted even strength stats, based on even strength time for Hudler as compared to Dats/Z. Otherwise his assists would have had the higher increase; he scored 17 goals and 12 assists at even strength. As for Flip and Sammy, Hudler played with a mix of Draper/Helm/Maltby/Kopecky/McCarty as much as he played with Flip/Sammy or anyone above them on the depth chart. Hudler being highly effective on the PP doesn't make him a bad player does it? Only Dats and Z outscored him on the PP that season among Wings forwards, and only Z did so this year, even when accounting for Dats' missed games. Hudler, even with his issues, still finished fifth among team forwards in PP points in 2010-11. Interestingly enough, actually, Dan Cleary's 8 PP points beating Todd Bertuzzi's 7 PP points was the only situation where Wings forwards finished in a scoring rank other than their rank based on PP ice time.
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#258 eva unit zero

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 12:47 AM

Even if it is based purely on their playmaking skill, all the players mentioned are stars in this league. Can you honestly expect to compare Jiri Hudler to these ppl and call them equal and not have people jump all over you?

As for the second part of your post, did i mention that both Helm and Eaves scored more goals than Hudler this year, playing exclusive 4th line minutes and pk?


Did you know that goal scoring is not playmaking?

As for being stars in the league, did you know that Scott Gomez scored 7 goals and 38 points this past season in 80 games? He was the first line center in Montreal, and scored one more point and only four more assists than Hudler. How do you explain Gomez, who is a star in the league, having a season that is effectively worse than Hudler's as Gomez played against the weak East, in the weak Northeast, and put up comparable numbers with fewer goals while playing 3 1/2 more minutes at ES and 30 seconds more on the PP.

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#259 Crymson

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 02:52 AM

I only adjusted even strength stats, based on even strength time for Hudler as compared to Dats/Z. Otherwise his assists would have had the higher increase; he scored 17 goals and 12 assists at even strength. As for Flip and Sammy, Hudler played with a mix of Draper/Helm/Maltby/Kopecky/McCarty as much as he played with Flip/Sammy or anyone above them on the depth chart. Hudler being highly effective on the PP doesn't make him a bad player does it? Only Dats and Z outscored him on the PP that season among Wings forwards, and only Z did so this year, even when accounting for Dats' missed games. Hudler, even with his issues, still finished fifth among team forwards in PP points in 2010-11. Interestingly enough, actually, Dan Cleary's 8 PP points beating Todd Bertuzzi's 7 PP points was the only situation where Wings forwards finished in a scoring rank other than their rank based on PP ice time.


Hudler did precisely dick on the power play this year, despite being given every possible chance in the first half of the season.

I don't even feel like reading the rest of your post, given that it's sure to be based on logic that even you know is terribly flawed.

Edited by Crymson, 01 June 2011 - 02:52 AM.


#260 Mitchmac33

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 03:36 AM

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.


I did realize that goal scoring is not the same as playmaking. But do you realize then when you say "his scoring will make franzen jealous" that means you are talking about...gasp...scoring goals.


Did you know that goal scoring is not playmaking?

As for being stars in the league, did you know that Scott Gomez scored 7 goals and 38 points this past season in 80 games? He was the first line center in Montreal, and scored one more point and only four more assists than Hudler. How do you explain Gomez, who is a star in the league, having a season that is effectively worse than Hudler's as Gomez played against the weak East, in the weak Northeast, and put up comparable numbers with fewer goals while playing 3 1/2 more minutes at ES and 30 seconds more on the PP.



Now is where I use your logic. Scott Gomez has effectively scored around 60+ points a year for his career. He had a down year. The difference between Hudler and Gomez? Gomez has actually lived up to his "potential". Alex Ovechkin scored less than 40 goals this year, he must not be one of the most potent scorers in the NHL anymore. And I know you will take this line and swing it into Hudlers favor using the 2008 stats or his 11 game streak, but that's just showing how someone can use stats to twist an arguement.

Oh, btw, Gomez has played in an All-Star game or two, so I guess that's why I would call him a star.

Edited by Mitchmac33, 01 June 2011 - 03:38 AM.






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