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Bannedforlife

Holland or Yzerman?

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But for the most part Stevie Y walked into a good situation with a good balance of quality veteran players who have already won a cup.

You can say Holland walked into a good situation too. When he became GM the team was loaded and there was no cap. In the post-cap era it was draft picks like Datsyuk,Zetterberg,Franzen, etc who emerged and became better players than anyone thought. He's the GM so some credit goes to Holland for the draft picks, but it's the scouting dept. that deserves credit more than anything. Most of his recent trades did not work out(Calder,Leino) and he's made some bad signings(Williams, Hudler, Modano). It's much easier to work around a good core and he has that with Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom.

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You can say Holland walked into a good situation too. When he became GM the team was loaded and there was no cap. In the post-cap era it was draft picks like Datsyuk,Zetterberg,Franzen, etc who emerged and became better players than anyone thought. He's the GM so some credit goes to Holland for the draft picks, but it's the scouting dept. that deserves credit more than anything. Most of his recent trades did not work out(Calder,Leino) and he's made some bad signings(Williams, Hudler, Modano). It's much easier to work around a good core and he has that with Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom.

What exactly didn't work out about Hudler? Holland signing one of his own RFAs who had just put up nearly 60 points? The fact that most teams in the league would love to have Hudler, and many would slap him right on their first line? The Wings having a plethora of skilled forwards is not a mistake Holland has made; it's exactly the opposite. I can think of nine forwards who played for the Wings this season who are top-six caliber, and another who should have been. If six players score 7 goals each, it's better than four players who score ten each and two who don't score at all.

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What exactly didn't work out about Hudler? Holland signing one of his own RFAs who had just put up nearly 60 points? The fact that most teams in the league would love to have Hudler, and many would slap him right on their first line? The Wings having a plethora of skilled forwards is not a mistake Holland has made; it's exactly the opposite.

Umm, $2.8 mil for 37 regular season points and being a healthy scratch in the playoffs is a mistake. The Wings do have a lot of skilled fwds, but how many was Holland directly involved in acquiring or drafting. Cleary and Bertuzzi are the only ones I can think of. He was the GM when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filpula were drafted so he gets some credit for that, but usually it's the scouting dept. that gets more credit than the GM for draft picks.

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Umm, $2.8 mil for 37 regular season points and being a healthy scratch in the playoffs is a mistake. The Wings do have a lot of skilled fwds, but how many was Holland directly involved in acquiring or drafting. Cleary and Bertuzzi are the only ones I can think of. He was the GM when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filpula were drafted so he gets some credit for that, but usually it's the scouting dept. that gets more credit than the GM for draft picks.

Brad Stuart, Brian Rafalski at the time, Hossa.

There are three right there. Hell re-signing Hasek was a huge move to keep Osgood rested in 08.

Don't forget signing Hasek, Hull, and Robitaille in 2002, as well as getting rid of dead weight after the lockout to keep this team competitive.

How about getting rid of Lewis and signing Babcock?

Edited by Doc Holliday

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Brad Stuart, Brian Rafalski at the time, Hossa.

There are three right there. Hell re-signing Hasek was a huge move to keep Osgood rested in 08.

Don't forget signing Hasek, Hull, and Robitaille in 2002, as well as getting rid of dead weight after the lockout to keep this team competitive.

How about getting rid of Lewis and signing Babcock?

You could argue that Rafalski at 6 mil the past 2 years has not been worth it, but they did win the Cup after the signing so yes you could say it's a good move. I'll argue the Hossa signing turned out to be a bad move due to his playoff performance but don't want to open that debate again.

Hasek, Hull, Robitaille were good signings but I was talking more about post-lockout where there is more of an even playing field.

I'm not saying he's a bad GM, far from it. I do think he's a bit overrated and that the scouting dept is the real strength of the organization.

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He was the GM when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filpula were drafted so he gets some credit for that, but usually it's the scouting dept. that gets more credit than the GM for draft picks.

Let's be fair here; credit needs to be shared in the drafting process for sure. The scouting department definitely finds talent. But at the end of the day it's an entire management staff that evaluates the talent and ultimately selects the player they feel is the best available at the time of the teams selection based on skill, hockey smarts and their individual team needs. The GM is the head of that management team. So just because the scouting department found the particular player that gets drafted doesn't mean they deserve 'more credit than the GM'. THe GM is the one ultimately makes the final decision after reviewing all of the information brought to him and listening to the cases presented to him by all of his scouts. He's the one that all of the responsibility falls on for a bad draft choice and all of the praise falls onto for a good one.

You could argue that Rafalski at 6 mil the past 2 years has not been worth it, but they did win the Cup after the signing so yes you could say it's a good move. I'll argue the Hossa signing turned out to be a bad move due to his playoff performance but don't want to open that debate again.

They also went back to the finals in 09 and lost in game 7. Rafalski was a part of that as well. The Hossa move, despite his underachieving offense in that playoff run, still contributing to getting as far as they did in that run. I'm not defending Hossa because I'm off the opinion he should have contributed more but I don't think you can pin Hossa's failure on Holland. Based on Hossa's career stats and the playoff run he just came off of with Pittsburgh Holland's move made a ton of sense and everyone on this board (except any one with a personal bias against Hossa) would have made that move for that cap hit at that time.

Yzerman has definitely made some good moves this year. But there are still aspects of being a GM we haven't seen from him yet. I want to see how he handles the draft and how he handles his first off-season after a playoff run. Whether or not Yzerman ever ends up the GM of the Wings or not the possibility is more advantageous to the Wings that he learns the ropes as the GM of another team. He can take everything he learned by job shadowing Holland in Detroit and apply it else where and if he ever comes back he can bring back 5+ years of experience

Edited by mmamolo

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You could argue that Rafalski at 6 mil the past 2 years has not been worth it, but they did win the Cup after the signing so yes you could say it's a good move. I'll argue the Hossa signing turned out to be a bad move due to his playoff performance but don't want to open that debate again.

Hossa didn't perform up to par in the playoffs, yes. However he had a great regular season and helped Detroit when the defense and goaltending couldn't keep pucks out of the net. He was also the most valuable free agent during that offseason, so getting him was huge.

Hasek, Hull, Robitaille were good signings but I was talking more about post-lockout where there is more of an even playing field.

I'm not saying he's a bad GM, far from it. I do think he's a bit overrated and that the scouting dept is the real strength of the organization.

Holland helped hire, manage, and approve the moves of the staff in the scouting department. He is involved in all of the final decisions when it comes to drafting.

Edited by Doc Holliday

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Holland deserves credit for having a great support staff in place and for listening to and trusting their opinions. He has made some good moves, but also some questionable ones (like Maltby's last two contracts, 2-year deal for Holmstrom last summer) and a few of his deals that could have worked well just plain didn't (Modano, Hatcher, etc.) Giving away Leino, I can't fault him for that... Babcock wouldn't play him because he had no work ethic and he wasn't a proven commodity in the league, so they weren't going to get a lot in return.

The biggest issue I have is the extent of the "loyalty" that goes on with the franchise. Other than Lidstrom and Yzerman, I wouldn't have let any other player decide if he's going to return when he's clearly past his prime and well on the way to useless. They are getting better though, pushing Chelios and Maltby out the door. I'd like to see the same thing continue with Osgood and probably Draper. There are too many young players who need the opportunity to play at the NHL level for Draper (and Modano) to have a spot next year. However, I feel most of the "loyalty" decisions come from above... as in Ilitch.

All that said, Holland is the better choice for GM right now. Had he completely lost his marbles or passion, then Yzerman or Nill should have been installed, but that's not the case. And I don't see Yzerman wanting to ditch the team he will have built in 5 years to come back to a Detroit team that may very well be in need of its own rebuilding...

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Let's be fair here; credit needs to be shared in the drafting process for sure. The scouting department definitely finds talent. But at the end of the day it's an entire management staff that evaluates the talent and ultimately selects the player they feel is the best available at the time of the teams selection based on skill, hockey smarts and their individual team needs. The GM is the head of that management team. So just because the scouting department found the particular player that gets drafted doesn't mean they deserve 'more credit than the GM'. The GM is the one ultimately makes the final decision after reviewing all of the information brought to him and listening to the cases presented to him by all of his scouts. He's the one that all of the responsibility falls on for a bad draft choice and all of the praise falls onto for a good one.

That's fair, and as I said the GM does deserve credit for draft picks. What I meant was that as opposed to trades or free agent signings, the influence the GM has on draft picks is less. For example, if you go back to the 90's when the Wings traded for Shanny, Vernon, Murphy, Maltby,etc you can say without hesitation that those are moves where all the credit goes to the Devellano/Bowman tandem.I personally don't think Holland's tenure compares to that period from '94-98 where the Wings clearly won blockbuster trades and found bargains. Should Lidstrom retire, I think then we will really see the ability of Holland as this will be the first big challenge he's had in the post-cap world.

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That's fair, and as I said the GM does deserve credit for draft picks. What I meant was that as opposed to trades or free agent signings, the influence the GM has on draft picks is less. For example, if you go back to the 90's when the Wings traded for Shanny, Vernon, Murphy, Maltby,etc you can say without hesitation that those are moves where all the credit goes to the Devellano/Bowman tandem.I personally don't think Holland's tenure compares to that period from '94-98 where the Wings clearly won blockbuster trades and found bargains. Should Lidstrom retire, I think then we will really see the ability of Holland as this will be the first big challenge he's had in the post-cap world.

Holland was also an assistant/co-GM during that era. And don't forget that our emergence in that time owes a lot to the emergence of late round gems Lidstrom, Fedorov, and Konstantinov. Not to mention Yzerman, Kozlov, Lapointe, McCarty, Osgood. Also, developing our draft picks properly is as important as drafting right in the first place. Maintaining a high level of depth lets us avoid putting too much pressure too early. Who can say how that affected Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, Filppula, Helm, Abby, etc. Even guys that haven't worked out so great like Ericsson, Kindl, and Hudler are in limited roles so their flaws don't really hurt us. A lot of GMs might have made a #19 pick like Kindl a key part of their plan. With us it really doesn't matter if Kindl is a boom or bust.

I think what says the most about Holland is that he's played a major role in creating a standard of success so high that some of you consider Hossa and Rafalski bad moves. Try judging any other GM in the game by the same standard you're holding Holland to. If Stevie falls short of a Cup this year, are you going to say all his moves were failures? Because that's basically what you're doing to Holland.

With the moves Holland has made and, just as importantly, not made, he has kept this team a legit contender every single year he has been in charge. It may have been a pretty easy gig to start, but his success over his tenure can't be overlooked. Steve, as much as I love him and believe he will be great as a GM, has barely proven himself worthy of shining Kenny's shoes, much less filling them.

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I think what says the most about Holland is that he's played a major role in creating a standard of success so high that some of you consider Hossa and Rafalski bad moves. Try judging any other GM in the game by the same standard you're holding Holland to. If Stevie falls short of a Cup this year, are you going to say all his moves were failures? Because that's basically what you're doing to Holland.

With the moves Holland has made and, just as importantly, not made, he has kept this team a legit contender every single year he has been in charge. It may have been a pretty easy gig to start, but his success over his tenure can't be overlooked. Steve, as much as I love him and believe he will be great as a GM, has barely proven himself worthy of shining Kenny's shoes, much less filling them.

Well,if you're going to talk about success then the Penguins have had as much success as the Wings recently, but you rarely hear people mention Shero as the best GM due to the fact that they have Crosby/Malkin and the perception is that it's much easier building a team when you have those 2-yet Holland has comparable pieces to build around with Datsyuk/Zetterberg and in fact has an extra advantage with Lidstrom.

I'm not saying that I think Holland is a tad overrated because the Wings didn't win a cup the past 2 years. I'm saying that the big moves he did make like Hossa and Rafalski you can question whether they paid off-has Rafalski been worth 6 mil the past 2 years,did Hossa perform as well as people thought he would? When you have a good core you're ultimately judged by what you add around it and the only player I would argue that has been a home run addition(post-lockout) has been Cleary. There have been plenty of misfires such as Hudler, Modano,Williams and one can argue he held on to players like Maltby, Draper, etc for too long.

Again, he's a very good GM. However, I don't think he's quite the genius some make him out to be.

Edited by Manoir

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Well,if you're going to talk about success then the Penguins have had as much success as the Wings recently, but you rarely hear people mention Shero as the best GM due to the fact that they have Crosby/Malkin and the perception is that it's much easier building a team when you have those 2-yet Holland has comparable pieces to build around with Datsyuk/Zetterberg and in fact has an extra advantage with Lidstrom.

Holland has kept the team as a contender since 1997. Your argument is invalid.

Also it isn't like Shero has added anything substantial other than a couple ancillary pieces and Hossa in 2009. And possibly firing Therrien and replacing him with Bylsma, which was pretty much a no brainer to begin with.

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Well,if you're going to talk about success then the Penguins have had as much success as the Wings recently, but you rarely hear people mention Shero as the best GM due to the fact that they have Crosby/Malkin and the perception is that it's much easier building a team when you have those 2-yet Holland has comparable pieces to build around with Datsyuk/Zetterberg and in fact has an extra advantage with Lidstrom.

I'm not saying that I think Holland is a tad overrated because the Wings didn't win a cup the past 2 years. I'm saying that the big moves he did make like Hossa and Rafalski you can question whether they paid off-has Rafalski been worth 6 mil the past 2 years,did Hossa perform as well as people thought he would? When you have a good core you're ultimately judged by what you add around it and the only player I would argue that has been a home run addition(post-lockout) has been Cleary. There have been plenty of misfires such as Hudler, Modano,Williams and one can argue he held on to players like Maltby, Draper, etc for too long.

Again, he's a very good GM. However, I don't think he's quite the genius some make him out to be.

Shero has been GM for 5 years. If he maintains a similar level of success for another 3-5 he will almost certainly earn similar praise, and deservingly so. Holland has done it for 13 years. Secondly, Pittsburgh has not been quite as successful, unless the only thing you consider success is Cup wins/trips to the finals. This year was the only year they finished ahead of Detroit in the regular season. One division title to Holland's 4 in the same span. Playoffs the Pens have 1st-round loss, Finals loss, Cup, 2nd-round loss, 1st-round loss. Wings have 3rd-round loss, Cup, Finals loss, 2nd-round, 2nd-round.

One thing to keep in mind with all these mistakes you say Holland is making, you can't judge them by comparing them to some imaginary results you think we'd have gotten with some hypothetical move we didn't make. Rafi maybe hasn't been quite worth $6M the past couple years, but he has been very valuable. Maybe $5M-ish. What, really, could we do without Rafi? Name any realistic move that would guarantee a Cup. Hossa was a great move that made a championship team even better. Stuart, Cleary, Eaves, Miller, Bert 2.0, Ozzie 2.0, Sammy, Conklin, Salei, Drake...all solid moves. And that's just post-lockout. Calling Hudler a 'misfire' after one s***ty year is premature, especially when he signed his contract after a fantastic season. Flip and Mule had sub-par years, are those mistakes? Modano had a freak injury and so never really had a chance here.

Part of what makes Kenny so good is that he's not so fickle as the fans. He won't cast away every player that has a bad stretch; won't gut the team after every failed Cup run. Some people might think those are mistakes. I think it's the reason we've been so consistently successful and the most respected franchise in the league. I'm not saying he's perfect. Just better than anyone else.

Again, I think you're so spoiled by the success Kenny has helped create that even that success isn't enough.

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Sorry to say it, but there's no way Stevie is coming back.

First, it's not in his character. When he starts something, he finishes it. He was our captain. He will be their GM. Second, the guy moved his family out to Florida. He's retired from hockey. Why of all places would he come back to Detroit? He has it made.

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Sorry to say it, but there's no way Stevie is coming back.

First, it's not in his character. When he starts something, he finishes it. He was our captain. He will be their GM. Second, the guy moved his family out to Florida. He's retired from hockey. Why of all places would he come back to Detroit? He has it made.

These days most GMs last about 3-8 years. Maybe he'll be wildly successful and turn TB into a perrenial contenter; maybe not. Maybe the ownership will remain as solid as it seems right now; maybe not. But it's not like the decision to stay is completely up to him.

He's spent more than half his life here and has never had anything but great things to say about the franchise. He's a beloved icon in the city. No reason to think he wouldn't want to come back. If he's available and Kenny's ready to step aside, no reason to think he won't be back.

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Bet if the Wings played a Pens team without Cindy and Geno, a Caps team with zero defense or goaltending they'd be in the conference finals as well. Yzerman has done a decent job thus far. Picking up Roloson was a nice move for one. But for the most part Stevie Y walked into a good situation with a good balance of quality veteran players who have already won a cup. And also having some young star players that can do nothing but only get better each year. And oh yeah some cap space to work with. I'll take a wait and see approach with Stevie Y. But for right now it's Holland.

I get what your saying about the Pens and Caps but it really isn't the case since Montreal did the same thing last year but instead of Halak being the hot goalie it is Roloson. I mean the series with the Penguins may have gone different with Sid and Malkin but they weren't there and they swept Washington. So sure, Yzerman came in with guys like Stammers, St. Louis and Lecavalier already on the team but he brought in Guy Boucher and players who bought into his system like Gagne, Moore, Clark, Kubina, Bergenheim and Brewer. Right now as much as I like and respect Holland I think I would take Yzerman for one reason. I think he would be more aggressive in trying to pick up certain players rather than just leave it as is.

But I really don't think it would be bad to have either one.

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Sorry to say it, but there's no way Stevie is coming back.

First, it's not in his character. When he starts something, he finishes it. He was our captain. He will be their GM. Second, the guy moved his family out to Florida. He's retired from hockey. Why of all places would he come back to Detroit? He has it made.

His family still lives in Michigan.

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I get what your saying about the Pens and Caps but it really isn't the case since Montreal did the same thing last year but instead of Halak being the hot goalie it is Roloson. I mean the series with the Penguins may have gone different with Sid and Malkin but they weren't there and they swept Washington. So sure, Yzerman came in with guys like Stammers, St. Louis and Lecavalier already on the team but he brought in Guy Boucher and players who bought into his system like Gagne, Moore, Clark, Kubina, Bergenheim and Brewer. Right now as much as I like and respect Holland I think I would take Yzerman for one reason. I think he would be more aggressive in trying to pick up certain players rather than just leave it as is.

But I really don't think it would be bad to have either one.

This organization did not accomplish what it has over the past 20 years by being stupid, and dumping a guy with 14 years of experience under his belt for a complete unknown would be just that.

In your assessment that Yzerman would "be more aggressive in trying to pick up certain players rather than just leave it as is", you are attempting to compare two general managers in two completely different situations.

Yzerman is in his first year with a team that has some talent and experience but has not made the playoffs since 2007. Ken Holland, on the other hand, has been with an organization that has been riding high since the 1991-1992 season, and has only had 3 sub-100 point seasons in his 14 years as gm. The last time the Redwings even missed the playoffs, 1990, the Lighting did not even exist.

That said, I am as big a fan of Steve Yzerman as the next guy and hope for nothing but the best for him in Tampa Bay , but I don't think it is fair to be comparing him to Ken Holland just yet.

Edited by Redwings 1926

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Starting now and for the future?

Yzerman of course. Same reason Emperor Palpatine wanted Luke Skywalker to replace Darth Vader as his new apprentice.

Holland has accomplished a lot here, but every GM moves on eventually, and I would have loved to see Yzerman move in as Wings GM because he'll always be a Wing to me.

Only problem I see is him being conflicted and loyal to players he used to play with, which is a large part of this team. I think he would have felt uncomfortable making moves on some of these players who were his former teammates and friends.

But alas, it's too late. Yzerman is not going to leave Tampa anytime soon. Doesn't strike me as that kind of person.

[/quote

first of all i love Stevie Y he was my all time favorite hockey player of all time (no disrespect to Gordie) but Holland has been and still is by far the best GM in the NHL end of story

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The Wings also have Jim Nill. He could be picked up by another team, but the organization seems to like him because they have declined offers to talk to him while still under contract. I don't see a guarantee that Yzerman will pop back to Detroit, once his current contract is up. I like what Yzerman has done in Tampa, but it has been less than one year, where Holland has been running Detroit for 14.

That's inaccurate. Wings just pay Nill as much as a lot of GMs make. He's free to talk to whomever he has wanted to, he just chooses to stay in Hockey Town.

To answer the question, it's Holland. Yzerman finally hired a french canadian coach, which is all Vinny wanted and no other GM seemed to do. Seriously, the last GM hired Barry Melrose. Couple that with how crappy the East is, it's not hard to see a semi educated hockey operations man being able to do very well in the Eastern Conference. Yzerman still has a decade or so in him to where he needs to prove on a season to season basis he can make good decisions. He did that this year, but he walked into a damn good situation with players like Vinny, and St. Louis and Stamkos and Hedman and a fairly deep farm system.

Holland has constructed a great scouting system and management team along with making more good decisions than bad decisions in the front office for the team.

I'd pick Holland for now and for the next team years. After that, it's fair game!

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