gritty players I would like the wings to sign

[Shaman 713]

If I (or Newfy) wanted a player like that on the Wings, we would be posting about MacIntyre and McGrattan instead of McCormick and Konopka.

Our argument is that Konopka can do at least 90% of what Miller can do offensively and on the PK at the same price while also being the Wings' enforcer. If you don't believe teams should carry enforcers, any argument you make in this thread is irrelevant because you have an underlying bias against these players (which it seems like you do). However, there are many posters here (inside and outside of this thread) who believe that a player like Konopka can do things other than score that can help the Wings win.

I would like a guy like Steve Downie on the team, not an enforcer. I disagree that he would provide 90% of the offense as do most who have posted outside of you, Bruise and Newfy. He is an enforcer, and is not a 20 point guy, as was pointed out before, he played with Steve Downie.

I am not anti-fighting, I am anti enforcer, as I keep saying its a dying archetype in the NHL with the new rules (the instigator and the rules that open up play).

PS Fighting is fun to watch, but an enforcer is no longer a realistic way to fill this want in a team.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shaman464

[Shaman 713]

Gritty players I would like to see on the wings:

Evander Kane

Travis Moen

Steve Downie

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Gritty players I would like to see on the wings:

Evander Kane

Travis Moen

Steve Downie

Downie's gotta be one of the more promising power forwards in the league. He's really come a long way with all of his issues in the past. He's top on my list. I doubt Stevie will let him go

[WorkingOvertime 536]

I would like a guy like Steve Downie on the team, not an enforcer. I disagree that he would provide 90% of the offense as do most who have posted outside of you, Bruise and Newfy. He is an enforcer, and is not a 20 point guy, as was pointed out before, he played with Steve Downie.

I am not anti-fighting, I am anti enforcer, as I keep saying its a dying archetype in the NHL with the new rules (the instigator and the rules that open up play).

PS Fighting is fun to watch, but an enforcer is no longer a realistic way to fill this want in a team.

Who, other than you, disagreed that Konopka could score 20 points playing 82 games with Helm and Mursak?

In 09-10, Konopka did not play with Downie that majority of the time. Downie's 46 points that season did not come on Konopka's wing (if they did, Konopka must be doing something right).

Gritty players I would like to see on the wings:

Evander Kane

Travis Moen

Steve Downie

Kane is a developing power forward who will only fight when forced. Downie played much more time with Tampa's top players than he would in Detroit. When he's a FA and Bert is gone, I wouldn't be against having him on the Wings one bit. However, his contract (and Kane's) is far beyond the money the other players mentioned in this thread will command.

Moen has only scored over 20 points once, and scored as little as 8 points in a season. How does Moen have a much greater upside than Konopka? Also, many of the posters you believe are pro-enforcer wanted Moen.

[Shaman 713]

Who, other than you, disagreed that Konopka could score 20 points playing 82 games with Helm and Mursak?

In 09-10, Konopka did not play with Downie that majority of the time. Downie's 46 points that season did not come on Konopka's wing (if they did, Konopka must be doing something right).

Kane is a developing power forward who will only fight when forced. Downie played much more time with Tampa's top players than he would in Detroit. When he's a FA and Bert is gone, I wouldn't be against having him on the Wings one bit. However, his contract (and Kane's) is far beyond the money the other players mentioned in this thread will command.

Moen has only scored over 20 points once, and scored as little as 8 points in a season. How does Moen have a much greater upside than Konopka? Also, many of the posters you believe are pro-enforcer wanted Moen.

Konnan said that not me.

As for Moen, its because #1 hes younger, has more prove offensive upside, and because hes a wing, which is what Detroit needs, not more centers.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Who, other than you, disagreed that Konopka could score 20 points playing 82 games with Helm and Mursak?

In 09-10, Konopka did not play with Downie that majority of the time. Downie's 46 points that season did not come on Konopka's wing (if they did, Konopka must be doing something right).

Kane is a developing power forward who will only fight when forced. Downie played much more time with Tampa's top players than he would in Detroit. When he's a FA and Bert is gone, I wouldn't be against having him on the Wings one bit. However, his contract (and Kane's) is far beyond the money the other players mentioned in this thread will command.

Moen has only scored over 20 points once, and scored as little as 8 points in a season. How does Moen have a much greater upside than Konopka? Also, many of the posters you believe are pro-enforcer wanted Moen.

I never said majority, I said a lot of the time. He spent the majority with the line FEDORUK,TODD, KONOPKA,ZENON, VEILLEUX,STEPHANE. As much of the time he spent on that line, he also played an equal amount interchanged on lines with Stamkos, St. Louis and a good chunk with Downie. With those players, he wasn't able to produce.

Also, here's a good statistical break down of Miller vs. Konopka where Miller comes away the winner in 29 of the 36 statistical categories last season and 25 of 38 this past season. =19&compare[]=455&sent=go&games=2009-2010%3AR%3A99"]Miller vs Konopka from last season

=19&compare[]=455&sent=go&games=2010-2011%3AR%3A99"]Miller vs Konopka this season

I really don't care who plays on the 4th line eating PK time, but if I had to pick between those two, I'd pick Miller

[eva unit zero 271]

If Hudler played with May and Downey posters here would certainly blame him lack of production on the linemates. Hudler has not played with players like Gillies, Haley, or Martin all year. This argument is non-sensible.

If Hudler played with Datsyuk all year, Datsyuk would get all the credit for Hudler's points. Hell, Hudler only spent three weeks with Datsyuk this season and Datsyuk gets credit for all of Hudler's points this year.

Konopka would be a solid bottom-six acquisition. He's a good defensive player, excellent on faceoffs, and offensively aware if not skilled. He's like Franzen used to be, but he's also an enforcer.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Konnan said that not me.

As for Moen, its because #1 hes younger, has more prove offensive upside, and because hes a wing, which is what Detroit needs, not more centers.

Is Moen 2x+ the salary better than Konopka? Also, Moen is a year younger than Konopka. Further, Konopka severely outscored Moen at the AHL level (which doesn't fully translate) and therefore may have an offensive upside greater than what he has produced in the past. These players are professional hockey players, and most centers don't have a problem playing wing- it's the other way around that's difficult.

I never said majority, I said a lot of the time. He spent the majority with the line FEDORUK,TODD, KONOPKA,ZENON, VEILLEUX,STEPHANE. As much of the time he spent on that line, he also played an equal amount interchanged on lines with Stamkos, St. Louis and a good chunk with Downie. With those players, he wasn't able to produce.

Also, here's a good statistical break down of Miller vs. Konopka where Miller comes away the winner in 29 of the 36 statistical categories last season and 25 of 38 this past season. =19&compare[]=455&sent=go&games=2009-2010%3AR%3A99"]Miller vs Konopka from last season

=19&compare[]=455&sent=go&games=2010-2011%3AR%3A99"]Miller vs Konopka this season

I really don't care who plays on the 4th line eating PK time, but if I had to pick between those two, I'd pick Miller

Do you have the statistics for the amount of time Konopka played with Stamkos and St. Louis? I know he played on the third line with Downie a bit, but I don't remember him regularly playing with St. Louis.

I appreciate you getting those statistics- it helps the discussion when there are more posters willing to do the legwork. However, I think those are better applied to comparing top line players. If a 5 point difference from a fourth liner(suggested by Shaman for Konopka-Miller), makes or breaks the Wings making the playoffs or winning the cup, then the Wings are in trouble beyond that position. As has been berated in this thread, Konopka's stats aren't immediately comparable to Millers, especially for the past season, because of linemates.

Also, there are few measures that relay what a fourth line is for- hitting, wearing down the other team, sticking up for teammates (you can disagree with this), solid D, and chipping in a goal every few games. They aren't on the fourth line to put up 30+ points a year.

This forum is funny because posters always say that they will accept an enforcer who can actually play. Konopka is as close as you're going to get outside of the power forward Clowe, Lucic, etc type that many of the same posters wouldn't want fighting since they put up a lot of points.

[eva unit zero 271]

Again we see why you want him on the team, you wouldn't care if he put up 5 points so long as he would drop the gloves, and in the process you would drop a player who is a very good PKer and a guy who has shown he can play at a 20 point pace (Miller had he played 82 games would have had 23 points both of the last two seasons)and is 3 years younger. I take track record over forum member's projections.

If Draper retires, Konopka's faceoff skills become very attractive as an advantage over Miller. Ultimately Konopka, provided he can skate with the team on the PK, which he should be able to given that he does it in the East, would be a better fit than Miller, fists or not. Lose a little offense, sure. But you get a big, key faceoff guy who plays physical and is good defensively. Konopka can be used for faceoffs against a guy like Thornton (big center, one of the best faceoff men in the league) instead of putting a guy like Draper or Filppula - someone who will be outmuscled - on that draw.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Is Moen 2x+ the salary better than Konopka? Also, Moen is a year younger than Konopka. Further, Konopka severely outscored Moen at the AHL level (which doesn't fully translate) and therefore may have an offensive upside greater than what he has produced in the past. These players are professional hockey players, and most centers don't have a problem playing wing- it's the other way around that's difficult.

Do you have the statistics for the amount of time Konopka played with Stamkos and St. Louis? I know he played on the third line with Downie a bit, but I don't remember him regularly playing with St. Louis.

I appreciate you getting those statistics- it helps the discussion when there are more posters willing to do the legwork. However, I think those are better applied to comparing top line players. If a 5 point difference from a fourth liner(suggested by Shaman for Konopka-Miller), makes or breaks the Wings making the playoffs or winning the cup, then the Wings are in trouble beyond that position. As has been berated in this thread, Konopka's stats aren't immediately comparable to Millers, especially for the past season, because of linemates.

Also, there are few measures that relay what a fourth line is for- hitting, wearing down the other team, sticking up for teammates (you can disagree with this), solid D, and chipping in a goal every few games. They aren't on the fourth line to put up 30+ points a year.

This forum is funny because posters always say that they will accept an enforcer who can actually play. Konopka is as close as you're going to get outside of the power forward Clowe, Lucic, etc type that many of the same posters wouldn't want fighting since they put up a lot of points.

Dobber hockey has all the official numbers and such.

I really don't care if the fourth liner was Miller or konopka, but if I had to pick i would pick Miller (but that's not saying a whole lot as I don't really care for him). When it comes to hits, Miller is nearly on par with konopka, at least according to the stats, but we both know all hits aren't created equal. My only gripe with Konopka is that he does have a high PIMs, which isn't something you want to see out of a puck possesion team, but I'm sure if he was told to cut down on the PIMs (like Mitch was told for this past season) and work on creating "some" offensive chances, I'm sure more of LGW would be responsive to Konopka over miller. Plus, konopka not being a winger, also is a reason I'd pick Miller.

[redwingfan19 293]

I'd like to see the Wings sign O'Brien, but i'd like to see the guy in my avatar in the lineup. Smith is ready folks, he is already miles ahead of Kindl in my book and deserves a shot at cracking the club.

O'Brien and Smith would be a sick 3rd pairing.

[king_malice 17]

Adam Pardy 6'2 206LBS He's a big body who is willing to fight handles himself well in his own zone 30GP 1G 6A +3 not the most offensive but i like the kid

Brooks Laich 6'2 205LBS another big guy that can skate well, hits, fights, good both ends of the ice if he has to and can defintly help out on the offensive side of the game. With the Caps more then likely making some changes this off-season and Laich being a UFA i think he is something the Wings could use.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen

Laich-Filppula-Bertuzzi

Holmstrom-Cleary-Hudler

Abdelkader-Helm-Murisak

Miller or Eaves

Edited May 20, 2011 by king_malice

[Konnan511 1,736]

Adam Pardy 6'2 206LBS He's a big body who is willing to fight handles himself well in his own zone 30GP 1G 6A +3 not the most offensive but i like the kid

Brooks Laich 6'2 205LBS another big guy that can skate well, hits, fights, good both ends of the ice if he has to and can defintly help out on the offensive side of the game. With the Caps more then likely making some changes this off-season and Laich being a UFA i think he is something the Wings could use.

We all want Laich, but he's going to be overpaid by someone.

[Guest Shoreline]

Dobber hockey has all the official numbers and such.

I really don't care if the fourth liner was Miller or konopka, but if I had to pick i would pick Miller (but that's not saying a whole lot as I don't really care for him). When it comes to hits, Miller is nearly on par with konopka, at least according to the stats, but we both know all hits aren't created equal. My only gripe with Konopka is that he does have a high PIMs, which isn't something you want to see out of a puck possesion team, but I'm sure if he was told to cut down on the PIMs (like Mitch was told for this past season) and work on creating "some" offensive chances, I'm sure more of LGW would be responsive to Konopka over miller. Plus, konopka not being a winger, also is a reason I'd pick Miller.

Miller also is familiar with this team's system and works with it. People suggest Jaromir Jagr when talking about top 3 or top 6 forwards, but likewise, isn't something that would fit.

It doesn't just work to take an enforcer and just drop him into a skill-based Red Wings roster thinking things will magically be a'ok. Kenny has stayed away from enforcers, and in the few seasons the Wings have even rostered a true blue goon-like enforcer, he rarely ever played.

I don't knock other teams who win with the ability to have enforcers play. The only team system I ever complained about was the old New Jersey Devils boring-as-s*** 1-4 trap they ran for almost a full decade before the two line pass rule change. However, I also don't s*** on the Red Wings lawn just because they don't value enforcers like other teams do. I know not having people knock heads around isn't technically as entertaining as doing so, and I know people get irritated when they see the Red Wing players get pushed around between whistles, but this team's winning strategy has been built around skill and grit -- it works -- don't f*** with something that isn't broken. But add onto that, this topic has confused grit for enforcers, which fully explains why the topic has turned so much about fighting and little about grit itself.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Shoreline

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Dobber hockey has all the official numbers and such.

I really don't care if the fourth liner was Miller or konopka, but if I had to pick i would pick Miller (but that's not saying a whole lot as I don't really care for him). When it comes to hits, Miller is nearly on par with konopka, at least according to the stats, but we both know all hits aren't created equal. My only gripe with Konopka is that he does have a high PIMs, which isn't something you want to see out of a puck possesion team, but I'm sure if he was told to cut down on the PIMs (like Mitch was told for this past season) and work on creating "some" offensive chances, I'm sure more of LGW would be responsive to Konopka over miller. Plus, konopka not being a winger, also is a reason I'd pick Miller.

I'll have to play around on Dobber, I hadn't seen that before.

Konopka's PIMs are huge, but the majority of the minutes are from fights and 10 minute misconducts (usually with a few min left in a game). He isn't a loose cannon, but he does seem to enjoy sticking up for his teammates. If posters here are willing to support SOB on the team, Konopka's bad penalities aren't an issue.

[Konnan511 1,736]

I'll have to play around on Dobber, I hadn't seen that before.

Konopka's PIMs are huge, but the majority of the minutes are from fights and 10 minute misconducts (usually with a few min left in a game). He isn't a loose cannon, but he does seem to enjoy sticking up for his teammates. If posters here are willing to support SOB on the team, Konopka's bad penalities aren't an issue.

I'm trying to stay objective and not trying to fall into the enforcer/anti-enforcer debate.

UK will love this suggestion, but why not re-sign Tardiff and have him be the 13th forward? He's a guy who will put up 10+ points (if playing full-time), is an above average skater and a hell of a fighter who already knows the Wing's system?

[WorkingOvertime 536]

I'm trying to stay objective and not trying to fall into the enforcer/anti-enforcer debate.

UK will love this suggestion, but why not re-sign Tardiff and have him be the 13th forward? He's a guy who will put up 10+ points (if playing full-time), is an above average skater and a hell of a fighter who already knows the Wing's system?

I've also mentioned that a few times this year. I think Tardif would be a great 13th forward for the Wings.

[Shaman 713]

I've also mentioned that a few times this year. I think Tardif would be a great 13th forward for the Wings.

Would love Tardif as a 13th forward if he wasn't such an important leader/player mentor to our prospects in the AHL.

[king_malice 17]

I dont think Laich gets much more then he maid this season, he played 4 more games this season over last and had 11 less PTS he probably makes 2.25-2.50 this season

[Hairy Lime 234]

What's everyone talking about? Grit? Toughness? Enforcer? We have Justin Abdelkader, the next Joey Kocur! Right?

Trade for Colton Orr or sign Rick Rypien.

[Shaman 713]

What's everyone talking about? Grit? Toughness? Enforcer? We have Justin Abdelkader, the next Joey Kocur! Right?

Trade for Colton Orr or sign Rick Rypien.

I first thought you were serious then I saw 'Trade for Orr' and I knew you must be joking.

First, Burke always over charges in trades.

Second, hes a million dollar cap hit, thanks but no thanks.

[king_malice 17]

what about a trade something like this

TO Bos : Jiri Hudler, 1st Round Pick(24th)

To Det : Greg Campbell, 1st Round Pick(9th)

Huder- 73GP 10G 27A -7

Campbell- 80GP 13G 16A +11

We would get back a gritty guy with a little size, good on the PK,fights,hits and has some offence and the Bruins would get back a more offensive guy that they could defintly use right now Hudler could also play on the Bruins PP which they do need. Also we would be saving some more Cap and could use it to bring in another top 6 guy UFA

[RedFX 48]

Everyone seems to forget we have an enforcer....

/debate

[Hockey Convert 55]

TO Bos : Jiri Hudler, 1st Round Pick(24th)

To Det : Greg Campbell, 1st Round Pick(9th)

Huder- 73GP 10G 27A -7

Campbell- 80GP 13G 16A +11

I would take that in a second, but I don't really see why Boston would. Campbell has become a solid player for them after they essentially got him as a sidenote, and one of their best penalty killers. Why would they trade him for Hudler who had a questionable year? Boston needs top-six wingers, but I don't think the need is deep enough yet to take a gamble on Hudler AND trade down in the draft.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

With Mursak and Emmerton out of options I don't really see room for a forward signing. Depending on how Tatar does this summer and in camp you could add him to that list too (but I think the Wings will let his situation play out carefully so he isn't rushed to the NHL too early). A gritty depth signing might be in order if we can't keep Miller and Eaves, though.

From what I've read Zenon Konopka is a fantastic character guy who teammates love to have around. How's his skating?