92 replies to this topic

[ComradeWasabi]

IMO...talented and really good players do it for 5+ years. I think consistency and longevity are the trademarks of truely great players. Furthermore, to be considered the most "talented player of all time", I believe your looking at guys that did "it" for 10+, 15+ seasons. I used to hear the same chatter about players being the "most talented", or could be "greatest of all time" and ultimately end up not even being close. LaFontaine, Lindros, Pavel Bure, D. Hatcher (touted as the best complete package looking size and skill for a D man of All Time...granted that was ESPN and it was pre-CBA), Forsberg, Yashin, Bertuzzi (back in the days with Vanc...used to be touted all the time that he may be the best Power Forward of all time), ....you get the point. None of these players would get on anyone's radar for making anyones "All Time" SHORT list (at least if your sane). Unless you consistently perform year-in year-out, and do this for 10, 15+ seasons....I don't think you'll ever be considered as the best, greatest, most talented, of all time. Let's see where Sid is in 5 seasons....then the conversation may be relevant.

edit: spelling

Umm...

Crosby's stat lines from the past 6 (that's six, as in one more than five) seasons:

39-63-102
36-84-120
24-48-72 (in only 53 games)
33-70-103
51-58-109
32-34-66 (in only 41 games)

Sounds like he's doing it pretty consistently for 5+ years to me. As a matter of fact, he's only getting better.

[edicius]

There are a lot of players who stop skating once their team is eliminated from the playoffs

Oh shoot, I thought it was because he was posing for pictures at Cannes. All those camera flashes can't be good for his headaches.

[esteef]

I saw Crosby's face in my toast this morning. He's a jerk!!

esteef

[Learn2LuvIt]

Umm...

Crosby's stat lines from the past 6 (that's six, as in one more than five) seasons:

39-63-102
36-84-120
24-48-72 (in only 53 games)
33-70-103
51-58-109
32-34-66 (in only 41 games)

Sounds like he's doing it pretty consistently for 5+ years to me. As a matter of fact, he's only getting better.

Ummm,
To to give you a heads up, some folks...a good amount of folks....don't even think he's the best player in the league right now, and hasn't been better than AO the last few years (and I bet there are a few people here that may argue that Dats is a better player). Although that is very, very debatable, it's reality. Again, all I'm saying is that doing what he's done for 6 seasons is phenominal. However, way too early to start putting All Time label's on him (most talented of All Time, best player of All Time, etc...). Really great player now, will he keep it up for another 5-10 seasons...no one knows (and I mean no one!). It's ridiculous to start putting him in the conversatoin with Gretzky, Howe, Orr, The Rocket, Mario....these are the guys that are in the All Time conversation. Not a 23 year old - 6 season-in player. He'll start to get that recognition if he can keep his performance up for another 5+ years. But you'd be crazy to throw him in that conversation at this time. Really crazy. Again though, some people don't think he's the best player in the NHL right now!
btw...the basis of this post is not to debate who is the best player right now. The basis is simply retorting the All Time label a previous poster claimed.

[Carman]

No one is putting an All-time label on him now, but he's one of the few players in this generation that have the ability to do so. He's on the pace to be one.

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

[hillbillywingsfan]

No one is putting an All-time label on him now, but he's one of the few players in this generation that have the ability to do so. He's on the pace to be one.

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

Well i do agree with you that he is one hell of a player and can be That great star of the nhl..i have to disagree about the success of the nhl being on his shoulders. How about the nhl push the greatness of datsyuk? or many others that are great in this league and not just focus on 1 player 90-95% of the time.

[Learn2LuvIt]

No one is putting an All-time label on him now, but he's one of the few players in this generation that have the ability to do so. He's on the pace to be one.

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

Actually they are. Did you thread this entire thread? See quote from CupforWings below:

<<Crosby is more then just another talented player... The guy is a beast, is 23 years old, and was on pace for 120 or more points. I hate Crosby as much as the next guy, but he is one of the most talented players of all time. Hopefully he is able to recover and keep putting up monster points like he was this year.>>

And...
Actually I think the success of the NHL relies on the fans putting up money to support the league by going to games, buying merchandise, and watching games on TV. Sid is only one player who can only effect these factors in a limited way. I completely disagree that the future of the NHL lies in the hands of Sidney Crosby. Example: this years first round playoff's have brought record nielsen "shares"/tv auidence in many, many markets. Sid's wasn't even in the playoff's this year. Compltely disagree. Is it better with him, of course. Will it fail or "fall back into the shadows" without him, no. If I'm a Tampa Bay fan am I NOT going to support my team and go to games, buy jersey's, follow them on TV because Sid is not playing for the Pens? Ridiculous.

[Dano33]

Well i do agree with you that he is one hell of a player and can be That great star of the nhl..i have to disagree about the success of the nhl being on his shoulders. How about the nhl push the greatness of datsyuk? or many others that are great in this league and not just focus on 1 player 90-95% of the time.

Here's the thing, ESPN dominates sports coverage in America, and most of the people on ESPN (in the US) don't know much of anything about hockey. These people like to compare the NHL to the NBA (which is ridiculous). The NBA is a league that is run by its star players, while the NHL has much more of a team oriented game, but this is something that the analysts don't understand. They say the NBA has Kobe and LeBron and the NHL has Crosby and Ovechkin. If the mainstream sports fan decides to watch hockey, he will then be drawn to those two players.

I guess my point it, true hockey fans will still watch with no Crosby, but I think it will be tough for Hockey to grow without its most recognizable star.

[CaliWingsNut]

I have constantly bitched about how much Crosby is over promoted (not about his ability).

He hasn't played for months, and he's still the top star in NHL's marketing. I think he's a great player, but I don't think he deserves half as much of the advertising time the NHL spends on him. He's one player in a league of 30 very competitive teams.

Maybe if the NHL bothered to promote someone else besides just him, bandwagon fans may be more impressed with the competition the league has to offer.

Hell, it's arguable that Malkin (while streaky, and overall not as good) has been a better player for brief periods of time.

[haroldsnepsts]

Actually they are. Did you thread this entire thread? See quote from CupforWings below:

<<Crosby is more then just another talented player... The guy is a beast, is 23 years old, and was on pace for 120 or more points. I hate Crosby as much as the next guy, but he is one of the most talented players of all time. Hopefully he is able to recover and keep putting up monster points like he was this year.>>

And...
Actually I think the success of the NHL relies on the fans putting up money to support the league by going to games, buying merchandise, and watching games on TV. Sid is only one player who can only effect these factors in a limited way. I completely disagree that the future of the NHL lies in the hands of Sidney Crosby. Example: this years first round playoff's have brought record nielsen "shares"/tv auidence in many, many markets. Sid's wasn't even in the playoff's this year. Compltely disagree. Is it better with him, of course. Will it fail or "fall back into the shadows" without him, no. If I'm a Tampa Bay fan am I NOT going to support my team and go to games, buy jersey's, follow them on TV because Sid is not playing for the Pens? Ridiculous.

Rocket Richard trophy
Stanley Cup (and another Finals appearance)
Art Ross
Pearson
Hart
Olympic Gold Medal
World Junior Gold medal

has 82 points in 62 career playoff games and had 66 points in 41 games this season before his injury.

All before he's what, 24 years old? If a Red Wings player had done all that you wouldn't call them one of the most talented players of all time?

I think he's a snotty little ****** much of the time, but Crosby is already one of the all time greats, and it's bad for the NHL if he's not playing. Wouldn't it be bad for the NHL if Datsyuk wasn't playing?

It's still a canadian game and Sid is a Canadian superstar. Or course they're going to talk more about him. Yes, it'd be great if they focused more on some of the other great players in this league, but that's not his fault. And honestly, I've been an Ovechkin fan but Crosby is clearly the better of the two, and the gap was widening before his injury.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 18 May 2011 - 12:59 PM.

[cusimano_brothers]

The League's second choice for this commercial was Ovechkin.

[Learn2LuvIt]

Rocket Richard trophy
Stanley Cup (and another Finals appearance)
Art Ross
Pearson
Hart
Olympic Gold Medal
World Junior Gold medal

has 82 points in 62 career playoff games and had 66 points in 41 games this season before his injury.

All before he's what, 24 years old? If a Red Wings player had done all that you wouldn't call them one of the most talented players of all time?

I think he's a snotty little ****** much of the time, but Crosby is already one of the all time greats, and it's bad for the NHL if he's not playing. Wouldn't it be bad for the NHL if Datsyuk wasn't playing?

It's still a canadian game and Sid is a Canadian superstar. Or course they're going to talk more about him. Yes, it'd be great if they focused more on some of the other great players in this league, but that's not his fault. And honestly, I've been an Ovechkin fan but Crosby is clearly the better of the two, and the gap was widening before his injury.

If your ALL TIME GREAT'S list is made up of 10+ players...than yes you may have an arguement. But I believe when most talk about "All Time" anything, most have a very short list (standard list...not in this order: Gretzky, Howe, Mario.....Done!) If you want to run this list into the 15+ or 20+ greatest of All Time players...you may have an arguement. But today he's not in the top 5 of All Time. Probably not even close. But ask yourself this....if you have to go 6+, 10+, 20+ deep into your "All Time" list ....are they really the best/most talented of ALL TIME??? No, not really. Really a great players, yes...is it fun to rank the really great players, yes...All Time- no.
You say you think he's a ******, but in all honesty in think your a fan of his or else I'm mistaken and your defending him blindly and not realizing that a lot of people don't even think he's the best player in the league right now, or even the past few years (ever since AO has turned it on). If you have to argue the notion that you believe he is the better player than AO, and the "gap has been widing before his injury", then he's clearly not "ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS". You might want to look at the great history of this game and some of the truely "all time greats" players. Even Don Cherry who is a Sid slappy has been quoted as saying "he's not there yet, but by God when I retire he just might be". Further debating that he's better than AO blows up your point.

[haroldsnepsts]

If your ALL TIME GREAT'S list is made up of 10+ players...than yes you may have an arguement. But I believe when most talk about "All Time" anything, most have a very short list (standard list...not in this order: Gretzky, Howe, Mario.....Done!) If you want to run this list into the 15+ or 20+ greatest of All Time players...you may have an arguement. But today he's not in the top 5 of All Time. Probably not even close. But ask yourself this....if you have to go 6+, 10+, 20+ deep into your "All Time" list ....are they really the best/most talented of ALL TIME??? No, not really. Really a great players, yes...is it fun to rank the really great players, yes...All Time- no.
You say you think he's a ******, but in all honesty in think your a fan of his or else I'm mistaken and your defending him blindly and not realizing that a lot of people don't even think he's the best player in the league right now, or even the past few years (ever since AO has turned it on). If you have to argue the notion that you believe he is the better player than AO, and the "gap has been widing before his injury", then he's clearly not "ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS". You might want to look at the great history of this game and some of the truely "all time greats" players. Even Don Cherry who is a Sid slappy has been quoted as saying "he's not there yet, but by God when I retire he just might be". Further debating that he's better than AO blows up your point.

Believe what you want but I'm not a Crosby fan. How am I defending him blindly? Look at his list of achievements. Before his injury he was destroying this league. He was absolutely the best player.

As for All Time Greats and what qualifies as "all time", it gets into semantics. No way do I include Crosby with Howe, Mario and Gretzky (and Orr) yet. But when you look at his achievements by the age of 24, he has a place pretty high up in hockey history already, and if he stays healthy it will probably get much higher.


And I'm not sure what your point was about AO and the gap widening affecting him being an all time great.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 18 May 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[Konnan511]

The blind hatred for Crosby in the hockey world is amazing. I don't like him for the same reason i don't like Iginla/Ovechkin/Thornton, they are just terrible leaders. What, Iginla a terrible leader, but he fights and is tough! Save it.Although I don't like Crosby, at least I can admit he is one of the top two players in the world.

Edited by Konnan511, 18 May 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[Learn2LuvIt]

Believe what you want but I'm not a Crosby fan. How am I defending him blindly? Look at his list of achievements. Before his injury he was destroying this league. He was absolutely the best player.

As for All Time Greats and what qualifies as "all time", it gets into semantics. No way do I include Crosby with Howe, Mario and Gretzky (and Orr) yet. But when you look at his achievements by the age of 24, he has a place pretty high up in hockey history already, and if he stays healthy it will probably get much higher.


And I'm not sure what your point was about AO and the gap widening affecting him being an all time great.

Point is, if there is a debate about two seperate players that have played roughly in the same time period, roughly same amount of seasons, and there is an debate whether who is or has been better....then it's hard to transition that same player (Sid in your case) to on any All Time list... Did anyone question year after year if there was a better player than Gretzky-no. Mario-no. Howe-no. Sid-yes. To be an All Time great there should be no debate that he is or was at least the best player in the league for the majority of his career. Right now, a lot of folks believe AO has been better for the past 3 seasons.
Secondly-How did his complete body of work look at the end of this season? Oh he was hurt. Yeah, a lot of players get hurt, careers end, never the same after an injury, yada yada...this all adds to the lore and realization of accomplishment and what the actual true greats went through to be in this very small group of players. Staying healthy is a part of hockey...not an excuse. Yes, if he stays healthy and does stays on pace for another 5-10 years....then you've got substance to having him on any All Time short list.

[Shoreline]

Point is, if there is a debate about two seperate players that have played roughly in the same time period, roughly same amount of seasons, and there is an debate whether who is or has been better....then it's hard to transition that same player (Sid in your case) to on any All Time list... Did anyone question year after year if there was a better player than Gretzky-no. Mario-no. Howe-no. Sid-yes. To be an All Time great there should be no debate that he is or was at least the best player in the league for the majority of his career. Right now, a lot of folks believe AO has been better for the past 3 seasons.
Secondly-How did his complete body of work look at the end of this season? Oh he was hurt. Yeah, a lot of players get hurt, careers end, never the same after an injury, yada yada...this all adds to the lore and realization of accomplishment and what the actual true greats went through to be in this very small group of players. Staying healthy is a part of hockey...not an excuse. Yes, if he stays healthy and does stays on pace for another 5-10 years....then you've got substance to having him on any All Time short list.

Even mentioning all time greats is a red herring of cosmic proportions.

This isn't about Howe or Gretzky or Mario, none of which are players in the NHL anymore.

Marketing isn't about the best of the best of the best in some ambiguous "fan" interpretation. Crosby gets the attention he gets because he's malleable to what constitutes a "brand" which the NHL is. Even if he plays 41 out of 82 games this season, it doesn't change his marketability whatsoever, nor does it change the fact that he's easily amongst the best few in the league. I would say people need to put some logic in the mix here when it comes to marketing but christ I can see we're in for yet another year of Crosby envy.

Edited by Shoreline, 18 May 2011 - 04:34 PM.

[Barrie]

There are a lot of players who stop skating once their team is eliminated from the playoffs

I missed this when I checked this discussion earlier...

Made me laugh, good one!

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

I can separate sports from someone's quality of life, so I wish Crosby all the best in his recovery, but I think the league will be fine if he doesn't come back. There's more than enough talent the league can market to the fans.

[Carman]

Point is, if there is a debate about two seperate players that have played roughly in the same time period, roughly same amount of seasons, and there is an debate whether who is or has been better....then it's hard to transition that same player (Sid in your case) to on any All Time list... Did anyone question year after year if there was a better player than Gretzky-no. Mario-no. Howe-no. Sid-yes. To be an All Time great there should be no debate that he is or was at least the best player in the league for the majority of his career. Right now, a lot of folks believe AO has been better for the past 3 seasons.

No, no they don't. Crosby is the best player in this era by a wide margin.

[Konnan511]

No one is putting an All-time label on him now, but he's one of the few players in this generation that have the ability to do so. He's on the pace to be one.

The NHL will suffer so very much if Crosby does not recover 100%. Crosby will be the reason the NHL will be successful league or fall back into the shadows

This is as false of a statement as someone can make. The league had record revenues...for the billionth year in a row and Crosby was out for half of it and had zero effect on the revenue.

[Carman]

This is as false of a statement as someone can make. The league had record revenues...for the billionth year in a row and Crosby was out for half of it and had zero effect on the revenue.

I'm sure his first half pace had nothing to do with it. You're right.