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Why no team is likely to offer sheet Doughty, Weber, or Parise


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#1 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 12:43 PM

Because they're all eligible for salary arbitration (which protects a player from offer sheets), and if these players are not signed by July 1st, it's likely that will be taken to arbitration (the arbitration award is not likely to be as high as what exposing such a player to offer sheets could drive their salary to). A team has the option to take a player to arbitration once per each player's career (a tool to protect a valuable player from offer sheets during their most valuable RFA period). A player can still choose to go to arbitration any time he comes up as RFA.

This has been a public service announcement.

Edit: more information from post below

I was on my way out the door when I wrote that, so I'll offer a little more insight to the process here now that my brain isn't quite as numb as it was earlier.

RFA: A drafted player may opt to become an unrestricted free agent either when they're 27 or when they've acquired 7 years of NHL experience (10 games or more played counts as a year of experience when determining free agency). Their rights can free up earlier if the NHL team in possession relinquishes them.

Offer sheet: Any RFA may be given an offer sheet unless they're protected (either by the team or player) via arbitration. If (and only if) a player accepts the offer sheet, the team in possession of his rights has a chance to match. The match is binding, and so the player cannot be given another offer sheet. If the team in possession declines to match, then the offering team relinquishes draft picks based upon salary. If the team is not in possession of their own draft picks needed for the next draft, they cannot make the offer. They must have the picks for that draft and it must be their own picks, not ones in the same round acquired via trade.

Additionally, a player may not be traded in the year in which they signed an offer sheet (whether they're on the new team or on the old team that matched).

Here's the chart for offer sheet compensation for this year (based upon league average salary):

$1,034,249 and below -- Nothing
$1,034,250 to $1,567,043 -- 3rd round pick
$1,567,044 to $3,134,088 -- 2nd round pick
$3,134,089 to $4,701,131 -- 1st and 3rd
$4,701,132 to $6,268,175 -- 1st, 2nd, 3rd
$6,268,176 to $7,835,219 -- Two 1sts (sequential years), 2nd, 3rd
$7,835,220 and above -- Four 1sts (sequential years)

Arbitration: If a player signs a contract after age 20 (meaning they turned 20 before free agency IIRC) then they are eligible for arbitration any year afterwards in which they are an RFA. If they sign before 20, then they are eligible for arbitration for 4 years after they signed. However, an accrued NHL season (>=10 games) takes a year off of this period.

If the player is eligible for arbitration, he may elect to go to arbitration any time he's RFA. Deadline for submission of arbitration is July 5th.

If a team files for arbitration with a player, the rules are a bit different. The team may only do this once during that player's career. They cannot ask for a salary reduction greater than 15%, and any contract awarded during this period is binding. If it was the player that brought them to arbitration, and not the team, the team can opt to step away from the contract (and automatically do if they don't accept the contract within 48 hours of the verdict).

So what effect does this have on Doughty, Weber, and Parise? All are eligible for salary arbitration. In the case of all three, the team is eligible to file. In the case of all three of these players, if they are not signed by July 1st it likely means that they want significant money and they were not able to work out a deal with the team. If this is the case, the teams in question will most likely take them to arbitration.

Remember, any salary offered under a $7,835,220 cap hit is worth two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd at max. Even if those are likely valuable 1sts, it could be argued that is worth it to acquire any of these players. Seeing as their teams would not want to be forced into signing a contract that high (or lose the players for two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd), and that arbitration will likely not award any of them a salary that high, this greatly increases the chances of all three of these players going to arbitration via the team if they do not have a deal worked out by July 1st.

I hope this provides additional insight into the process for some people.
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#2 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 12:48 PM

If anyone obtains a big RFA player right now it will likely be via trade (see: Kessel, Phil).

To paraphrase Holland: the cap world is about getting players to play better than you pay them for, not to overpay players.
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#3 Bannedforlife

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 01:09 PM

...or Parise.

Because they're all eligible for salary arbitration (which protects a player from offer sheets), and if these players are not signed by July 1st, it's likely that will be taken to arbitration (the arbitration award is not likely to be as high as what exposing such a player to offer sheets could drive their salary to). A team has the option to take a player to arbitration once per each player's career (a tool to protect a valuable player from offer sheets during their most valuable RFA period). A player can still choose to go to arbitration any time he comes up as RFA.

This has been a public service announcement.

Thank god you're around to protect all of us from our own imaginations. Now that this great service has been rendered, why don't you start touring around elementary schools dispelling the evil myths of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. While you're at it, maybe you can share with them the odds of becoming astronauts, or baseball players, or the president of the United States. Much better that they stop dreaming now than to learn the crushing truth on their own.

#4 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 01:40 PM

Thank god you're around to protect all of us from our own imaginations. Now that this great service has been rendered, why don't you start touring around elementary schools dispelling the evil myths of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. While you're at it, maybe you can share with them the odds of becoming astronauts, or baseball players, or the president of the United States. Much better that they stop dreaming now than to learn the crushing truth on their own.

He actually provided insight on something a lot of people probably didn't know regarding the CBA, RFA's and arbitration. I sure didn't. So he shared some actual hockey knowledge.

And that somehow offended you?

#5 grwingfan

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 01:48 PM

Thank god you're around to protect all of us from our own imaginations. Now that this great service has been rendered, why don't you start touring around elementary schools dispelling the evil myths of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. While you're at it, maybe you can share with them the odds of becoming astronauts, or baseball players, or the president of the United States. Much better that they stop dreaming now than to learn the crushing truth on their own.



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#6 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:17 PM

Any otherf****** threads about Weber and Doughty?

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 26 May 2011 - 02:18 PM.

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#7 Bannedforlife

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:19 PM

He actually provided insight on something a lot of people probably didn't know regarding the CBA, RFA's and arbitration. I sure didn't. So he shared some actual hockey knowledge.

And that somehow offended you?

I wasn't offended by the information he shared but that he decided to be a smug ******* about it. A public service announcement? Since when did it become your job to school all of us on the CBA? Apparently he and Konnan are the ones easily offended by our ignorance and naiveté since they devote so much of their free time to making sure we understand how futile it is to hope for such things.

#8 Heaten

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:24 PM

I think it was standard knowledge that Weber isn't coming here anytime soon.

Holland isn't going to give up 4 draft picks. Holland isn't going to overpay anyone. And Preds aren't going to let their franchise player slip away.

#9 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:36 PM

I was on my way out the door when I wrote that, so I'll offer a little more insight to the process here now that my brain isn't quite as numb as it was earlier.

RFA: A drafted player may opt to become an unrestricted free agent either when they're 27 or when they've acquired 7 years of NHL experience (10 games or more played counts as a year of experience when determining free agency). Their rights can free up earlier if the NHL team in possession relinquishes them.

Offer sheet: Any RFA may be given an offer sheet unless they're protected (either by the team or player) via arbitration. If (and only if) a player accepts the offer sheet, the team in possession of his rights has a chance to match. The match is binding, and so the player cannot be given another offer sheet. If the team in possession declines to match, then the offering team relinquishes draft picks based upon salary. If the team is not in possession of their own draft picks needed for the next draft, they cannot make the offer. They must have the picks for that draft and it must be their own picks, not ones in the same round acquired via trade.

Additionally, a player may not be traded in the year in which they signed an offer sheet (whether they're on the new team or on the old team that matched).

Here's the chart for offer sheet compensation for this year (based upon league average salary):

$1,034,249 and below -- Nothing
$1,034,250 to $1,567,043 -- 3rd round pick
$1,567,044 to $3,134,088 -- 2nd round pick
$3,134,089 to $4,701,131 -- 1st and 3rd
$4,701,132 to $6,268,175 -- 1st, 2nd, 3rd
$6,268,176 to $7,835,219 -- Two 1sts (sequential years), 2nd, 3rd
$7,835,220 and above -- Four 1sts (sequential years)

Arbitration: If a player signs a contract after age 20 (meaning they turned 20 before free agency IIRC) then they are eligible for arbitration any year afterwards in which they are an RFA. If they sign before 20, then they are eligible for arbitration for 4 years after they signed. However, an accrued NHL season (>=10 games) takes a year off of this period.

If the player is eligible for arbitration, he may elect to go to arbitration any time he's RFA. Deadline for submission of arbitration is July 5th.

If a team files for arbitration with a player, the rules are a bit different. The team may only do this once during that player's career. They cannot ask for a salary reduction greater than 15%, and any contract awarded during this period is binding. If it was the player that brought them to arbitration, and not the team, the team can opt to step away from the contract (and automatically do if they don't accept the contract within 48 hours of the verdict).

So what effect does this have on Doughty, Weber, and Parise? All are eligible for salary arbitration. In the case of all three, the team is eligible to file. In the case of all three of these players, if they are not signed by July 1st it likely means that they want significant money and they were not able to work out a deal with the team. If this is the case, the teams in question will most likely take them to arbitration.

Remember, any salary offered under a $7,835,220 cap hit is worth two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd at max. Even if those are likely valuable 1sts, it could be argued that is worth it to acquire any of these players. Seeing as their teams would not want to be forced into signing a contract that high (or lose the players for two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd), and that arbitration will likely not award any of them a salary that high, this greatly increases the chances of all three of these players going to arbitration via the team if they do not have a deal worked out by July 1st.

I hope this provides additional insight into the process for some people.

I wasn't offended by the information he shared but that he decided to be a smug ******* about it. A public service announcement? Since when did it become your job to school all of us on the CBA? Apparently he and Konnan are the ones easily offended by our ignorance and naiveté since they devote so much of their free time to making sure we understand how futile it is to hope for such things.


While I cannot speak for Konnan, I personally enjoy teaching others about the workings of the NHL and such things, to the extent of my own knowledge of course (I had to refresh a lot of this stuff this morning after some discussions in chat). Given the complexities of the NHL, the salary cap, restricted free agency, and so on it's easy even for pros to overlook some of the rules and scenarios.

I'm sorry if the NHLs rules and options regarding free agency limits or denies your fantasies. In that case, your issue should be with them, not me.
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#10 mjlegend

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:05 PM

Playing Devil's Advocate, Dats...

Are you saying a team on a pencil-thin internal budget (apart from the salary cap) might never take the picks instead of the contract for a player they'll never be able to surround with talent? In CBA Theory World, they don't have to offer him a raise at all to get him to a one-year-deal, but the reality is that move spits in his face and tells him they don't feel like giving a serious commitment to one of the best defencemen in the NHL.

They can buy themselves another year by giving him, say $6 million for one year, orby letting him go through arbitration, but next year is his first year of UFA eligibility (where they would lose him for nothing). Unless they think they're close to the Cup, why should they bother?

I'd love to see Kenny offer a deal of, say, Kindl, Hudler and a couple of firsts, because Weber is a Norris candidate just starting the prime of his career at a time when Lidstrom is nearing the end. But if it does come down to offer sheets, I'd hope we wouldn't be afraid to pull the trigger on a massive contract.

#11 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:19 PM

Playing Devil's Advocate, Dats...

Are you saying a team on a pencil-thin internal budget (apart from the salary cap) might never take the picks instead of the contract for a player they'll never be able to surround with talent? In CBA Theory World, they don't have to offer him a raise at all to get him to a one-year-deal, but the reality is that move spits in his face and tells him they don't feel like giving a serious commitment to one of the best defencemen in the NHL.

They can buy themselves another year by giving him, say $6 million for one year, orby letting him go through arbitration, but next year is his first year of UFA eligibility (where they would lose him for nothing). Unless they think they're close to the Cup, why should they bother?

I'd love to see Kenny offer a deal of, say, Kindl, Hudler and a couple of firsts, because Weber is a Norris candidate just starting the prime of his career at a time when Lidstrom is nearing the end. But if it does come down to offer sheets, I'd hope we wouldn't be afraid to pull the trigger on a massive contract.


The only player to which this can refer is Weber (Since LA and NJ can spend to the cap). In that regard, no, I'm saying it won't happen... not because he wouldn't get offered a salary that high, but because he'll never get to a point where he's offered a salary that high--that is, he'll be brought to arbitration if he isn't signed before July 1st--and he won't get a salary as high as it would take for Nashville to get four 1st rounders (a roughly 7.83m cap hit). They'd match anything under that--two late round 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd from Detroit, for example, just isn't that valuable.

Also keep in mind that Nashville has been facing rising revenues, an increasing internal cap, additional playoff success, and has an owner that might be willing to invest if he thinks the team is at a point where they can challenge for serious success. Internal budget isn't going to be a large factor in what Nashville does with Weber. Losing them would take a huge chunk out of everything they've built, which would hurt their finances much more in a long term look.

Now, if we were talking a team that's in as dire straits as, say, Phoenix, and they were in a situation where they had a great player looking for more salary than they could afford? In that case, they'd probably consider trading his rights for slightly more than they could get via expected offer sheet compensation. However, this is never an ideal situation; such usually creates perpetual rebuild scenarios, such as what can be seen in Florida.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 26 May 2011 - 03:21 PM.

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#12 AceInTheSleeve

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 05:13 PM

Seems like a raw deal to the player to block incoming offer sheets from other teams and force them into arbitration which would award a contract lesser than what other teams would be offering...are you sure a team can do this to a player?

Edited by AceInTheSleeve, 26 May 2011 - 05:17 PM.


#13 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 05:31 PM

Seems like a raw deal to the player to block incoming offer sheets from other teams and force them into arbitration which would award a contract lesser than what other teams would be offering...are you sure a team can do this to a player?


Absolutely sure, yes. It allows the team to have at least some time with the young players to get something going. This particularly helps out the crappy markets who may not be able to spend to the crap, thus suck, draft high... and without them getting some RFA time with the players, they'd see them bolt to better markets ASAP.

Could be worse for the players; RFA used to last until age 31.

I mean, if you want to take the "raw deal" part to the fullest extent it's a raw deal for the players that a team can draft them and then hang onto their rights until their mid 20s, instead of being able to compete in the free agent market ASAP. But that's what rights are all about, giving a team some exclusivity to drafted players for a certain amount of time.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 26 May 2011 - 05:33 PM.

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#14 egroen

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 06:06 PM

I don't think a team has done this yet - but you also have not had too many players of that caliber making it to RFA.
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#15 martyrme19

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 06:55 PM

If anyone obtains a big RFA player right now it will likely be via trade (see: Kessel, Phil).

To paraphrase Holland: the cap world is about getting players to play better than you pay them for, not to overpay players.



Bingo.


Side question, am I right in my assumption that there are much older, and therefore, more established RFA than in years past and this is most likely a direct link to the new CBA?
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#16 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:19 PM

I don't think a team has done this yet - but you also have not had too many players of that caliber making it to RFA.


Since the lockout, only 6 players have accepted offer sheets (Kesler, Vanek, Penner, Backes, Bernier, Hjalmarsson), and only one didn't get matched (Penner).

The last offer sheet to be accepted before that was our boy Feds way back in '98, and the last person to accept before that was Gratton in '97.

Bingo.


Side question, am I right in my assumption that there are much older, and therefore, more established RFA than in years past and this is most likely a direct link to the new CBA?


No. In the old CBA, players could stay RFA 'til age 31.
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#17 egroen

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:40 PM

Since the lockout, only 6 players have accepted offer sheets (Kesler, Vanek, Penner, Backes, Bernier, Hjalmarsson), and only one didn't get matched (Penner).

The last offer sheet to be accepted before that was our boy Feds way back in '98, and the last person to accept before that was Gratton in '97.

I think Sakic was '96 - and you would think a team would elect arbitration in his and Fedorov's cases as well - so this must be only under the new CBA.

Edited by egroen, 26 May 2011 - 07:41 PM.

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#18 Crymson

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:59 PM

Playing Devil's Advocate, Dats...

Are you saying a team on a pencil-thin internal budget (apart from the salary cap) might never take the picks instead of the contract for a player they'll never be able to surround with talent? In CBA Theory World, they don't have to offer him a raise at all to get him to a one-year-deal, but the reality is that move spits in his face and tells him they don't feel like giving a serious commitment to one of the best defencemen in the NHL.

They can buy themselves another year by giving him, say $6 million for one year, orby letting him go through arbitration, but next year is his first year of UFA eligibility (where they would lose him for nothing). Unless they think they're close to the Cup, why should they bother?

I'd love to see Kenny offer a deal of, say, Kindl, Hudler and a couple of firsts, because Weber is a Norris candidate just starting the prime of his career at a time when Lidstrom is nearing the end. But if it does come down to offer sheets, I'd hope we wouldn't be afraid to pull the trigger on a massive contract.


Doubtful. I think that the Preds will lose a couple of other players to afford Weber. They'd be silly not to; he and Rinne are the cogs of the team.

#19 Datsyerberger

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 08:02 PM

I think Sakic was '96 - and you would think a team would elect arbitration in his and Fedorov's cases as well - so this must be only under the new CBA.


I believe the current way things work is new, yes.

Regarding the others, Kesler, Backes, Bernier, and Hjalmarsson were all mid tier players at the time of theirs, Penner was K. Lowe being K. Lowe, and Vanek was carelessness (and they paid for it by having to match a massive contract, one they could've rejected for 4 1st rounders from Edmonton).
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#20 WingZNut13

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 08:38 PM

Because they're all eligible for salary arbitration (which protects a player from offer sheets), and if these players are not signed by July 1st, it's likely that will be taken to arbitration (the arbitration award is not likely to be as high as what exposing such a player to offer sheets could drive their salary to). A team has the option to take a player to arbitration once per each player's career (a tool to protect a valuable player from offer sheets during their most valuable RFA period). A player can still choose to go to arbitration any time he comes up as RFA.

This has been a public service announcement.

Edit: more information from post below

I was on my way out the door when I wrote that, so I'll offer a little more insight to the process here now that my brain isn't quite as numb as it was earlier.

RFA: A drafted player may opt to become an unrestricted free agent either when they're 27 or when they've acquired 7 years of NHL experience (10 games or more played counts as a year of experience when determining free agency). Their rights can free up earlier if the NHL team in possession relinquishes them.

Offer sheet: Any RFA may be given an offer sheet unless they're protected (either by the team or player) via arbitration. If (and only if) a player accepts the offer sheet, the team in possession of his rights has a chance to match. The match is binding, and so the player cannot be given another offer sheet. If the team in possession declines to match, then the offering team relinquishes draft picks based upon salary. If the team is not in possession of their own draft picks needed for the next draft, they cannot make the offer. They must have the picks for that draft and it must be their own picks, not ones in the same round acquired via trade.

Additionally, a player may not be traded in the year in which they signed an offer sheet (whether they're on the new team or on the old team that matched).

Here's the chart for offer sheet compensation for this year (based upon league average salary):

$1,034,249 and below -- Nothing
$1,034,250 to $1,567,043 -- 3rd round pick
$1,567,044 to $3,134,088 -- 2nd round pick
$3,134,089 to $4,701,131 -- 1st and 3rd
$4,701,132 to $6,268,175 -- 1st, 2nd, 3rd
$6,268,176 to $7,835,219 -- Two 1sts (sequential years), 2nd, 3rd
$7,835,220 and above -- Four 1sts (sequential years)

Arbitration: If a player signs a contract after age 20 (meaning they turned 20 before free agency IIRC) then they are eligible for arbitration any year afterwards in which they are an RFA. If they sign before 20, then they are eligible for arbitration for 4 years after they signed. However, an accrued NHL season (>=10 games) takes a year off of this period.

If the player is eligible for arbitration, he may elect to go to arbitration any time he's RFA. Deadline for submission of arbitration is July 5th.

If a team files for arbitration with a player, the rules are a bit different. The team may only do this once during that player's career. They cannot ask for a salary reduction greater than 15%, and any contract awarded during this period is binding. If it was the player that brought them to arbitration, and not the team, the team can opt to step away from the contract (and automatically do if they don't accept the contract within 48 hours of the verdict).

So what effect does this have on Doughty, Weber, and Parise? All are eligible for salary arbitration. In the case of all three, the team is eligible to file. In the case of all three of these players, if they are not signed by July 1st it likely means that they want significant money and they were not able to work out a deal with the team. If this is the case, the teams in question will most likely take them to arbitration.

Remember, any salary offered under a $7,835,220 cap hit is worth two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd at max. Even if those are likely valuable 1sts, it could be argued that is worth it to acquire any of these players. Seeing as their teams would not want to be forced into signing a contract that high (or lose the players for two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd), and that arbitration will likely not award any of them a salary that high, this greatly increases the chances of all three of these players going to arbitration via the team if they do not have a deal worked out by July 1st.

I hope this provides additional insight into the process for some people.


Thanks for the insight man. I was a little lost and I knew getting Weber and other would be a bit of a farfetched idea but I didn't know there was that much there. I am a huge hockey fan but living in the south, I don't have anyone to discuss the inter workings of RFA,UFA and etc. Thanks for the insight. Always great to hear from people who understand this s*** even when it get's complicated.
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