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#41 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:50 PM

Why do I feel like I'm teaching a special education class.

L-I-S-T-E-N...

I did not, am not, and will not ever say that Jovanovski is better than Bieksa, Ehrhoff, or Wisniewski.

The advantage of signing Jovanovski is that it is a short one year commitment that will enable us to pursue someone better than Wisniewski in next year's FA class, like Ryan Suter.

Bieksa and Ehrhoff are both going to get something close to 7mil, and Holland would never give either anything close...so, please, don't even talk to me about either.


Thing is, Holland has enough cash this year to get BOTH Wiz and Jovo plus pursue Suter next year, even if Wiz signed for 5 years. Jovo will probably get a bigger pay day than $3M, even if he is not worth it, BUT considering his friendship and past with Bertuzzi, plus there is always the "hometown" factor (yes I consider Windsor basically a hometown when it comes to Detroit.) He just may come here if Bert talks him into it to try to get their first Cup... I think he would add very good veteran leadership and toughness to our D corps. IF he signed for $3M or less....considering he has been making an average of $6.5M the last 5 years. Maybe its time for him to give up a little and possibly win a Cup at home. Dunno, it'd be nice, but some team will throw $5M or more at him anyway...

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#42 blueadams

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:53 PM

Explain how we're going to afford to sign a premier defenseman when most of Lidstrom's contract is going to make up the raises that Kronwall and Stuart are going to get? C'mon Yoda, help me see where that extra seven million is going to come from?

You said that you never suggested that Jovanovski was better than Erhoff, Bieksa, or Wiz. Except that you did say that (and I just highlighted where you said it).

You also said that there were no better UFA options than Jovanovski. Except that there are better options (and I told you ten posts ago who they were).

Now you're saying that Jovanovski isn't better than Wiz, Bieksa, Erhoff; which is what I've been saying all along. And considering he already makes six million dollars and isn't likely to sign for too much less, if any at all, why wouldn't they just sign one of those three guys.


This is the last time that I'm going to attempt to explain reason to you...because it's looking more and more like an exercise in futility.

#1) I never at any point said that Jovanovski was a better player than Ehrhoff, Bieksa or Wiz. Please post the quote in full if you think I did. I did suggest that Jovanovski would be a better signing than those three because he would come cheaper, and on a one year deal - which would give us more money to pursue someone like Suter next off-season. I still stand by that ---> that him and his short contract would be our best option.

#2) Like I said before, I'm not getting into the money issue with you. It's obvious. It's simple. You don't get it. I don't care that you don't get it. And I don't feel like wasting half an hour explaining it to you.

#43 blueadams

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:00 PM

Thing is, Holland has enough cash this year to get BOTH Wiz and Jovo plus pursue Suter next year, even if Wiz signed for 5 years. Jovo will probably get a bigger pay day than $3M, even if he is not worth it, BUT considering his friendship and past with Bertuzzi, plus there is always the "hometown" factor (yes I consider Windsor basically a hometown when it comes to Detroit.) He just may come here if Bert talks him into it to try to get their first Cup... I think he would add very good veteran leadership and toughness to our D corps. IF he signed for $3M or less....considering he has been making an average of $6.5M the last 5 years. Maybe its time for him to give up a little and possibly win a Cup at home. Dunno, it'd be nice, but some team will throw $5M or more at him anyway...


Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

#44 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:14 PM

Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

I am saying "for the right price." If Wiz would take a 5 yr $20M deal, then sign him up, but that depends on him, I am sure there will be teams offering him $5M+ per season, then I say no thanks. I am with ya on the Jovo deal. Sign him for one and heck if he likes it and has some stuff left, sign him again when we get Suter (thinking positive) and like I said, it's no guarantee that Lids is done after one more year either. I'd take a d-corps of Lids/Suter/Kronner/Stuart/Jovo/Kindl/Smith for 2012... I just would like to see Wiz here as well, that way if Lids does retire, they wouldn't be hurting as much, but then again, who else is available next off season on D? One thing is for sure, it's nice to finally NOT be up against the Cap and have all these options available!!!

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#45 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:26 PM

Ryan Suter would be an awesome fit but it's not like he won't be in super high demand, so it will cost us and still be hard to get him


#46 Hey man nice shot!

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:33 PM

blueadams, is that you?

I was thinking the same thing lol

I am saying "for the right price." If Wiz would take a 5 yr $20M deal, then sign him up, but that depends on him, I am sure there will be teams offering him $5M+ per season, then I say no thanks. I am with ya on the Jovo deal. Sign him for one and heck if he likes it and has some stuff left, sign him again when we get Suter (thinking positive) and like I said, it's no guarantee that Lids is done after one more year either. I'd take a d-corps of Lids/Suter/Kronner/Stuart/Jovo/Kindl/Smith for 2012... I just would like to see Wiz here as well, that way if Lids does retire, they wouldn't be hurting as much, but then again, who else is available next off season on D? One thing is for sure, it's nice to finally NOT be up against the Cap and have all these options available!!!

I would staight up s*** my pants if i ever seen jovi in a wings jersey... I would like it but don't see it happening.

Ryan Suter would be an awesome fit but it's not like he won't be in super high demand, so it will cost us and still be hard to get him

Suter will be back with nashville if he didn't have any issues with the coaching.

#47 Buppy

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:50 PM

Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

Of the current roster and prospects expected to be with the team, we have 10 players signed beyond next year, for about $28M. We can probably figure a cap number around $62-65M, assuming the hard cap stays in the next CBA. We have great long-term flexibility, even if we get a couple higher priced guys this year.

We could be looking at something like this in two years (I didn't bother to look up the FAs, so I just filled in prices mostly. And I think my raises and FA prices are pretty liberal.):
FORWARDS
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Brooks Laich ($4.000m)
Johan Franzen ($3.954m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Helm ($2.500m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Abby ($1.750m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.250m)
/ Some Guy ($0.850m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kronner ($5.000m) / Brent Burns ($6.500m)
Stuie ($4.500m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,536,211; BONUSES: $260,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $463,789

So we can pick up Wis and Laich, who would both fit our needs nicely this coming season, AND still sign a premier defenseman next summer AND keep our key FAs AND add a couple decent role players, if not even more. And that's not even considering the ability to trade someone to free space.

#48 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:51 PM

I would staight up s*** my pants if i ever seen jovi in a wings jersey... I would like it but don't see it happening.


Well, he is technically a local boy, is super goods friends with Bertuzzi, plus he is entering the twilight of his career WITHOUT having his name on the Cup. None of that means he will come here, but there are only a handful of teams that have a legit shot at the Cup and that alone makes it a possibility and I wouldn't be surprised if he did end up here....unless he goes for more huge payday's. If he signs here, it shouldn't be for more than $3M. But, like most of the available UFA's he will get higher offers elsewhere, maybe even other Cup contenders...

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#49 blueadams

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:35 PM

idk why, but suter strikes me as the type that would take well below market value to play here.

and nashville ain't gonna have much left to offer him after giving weber 8mil a season.

#50 Datsyerberger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:47 PM

idk why, but suter strikes me as the type that would take well below market value to play here.


I do.

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#51 blueadams

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:50 PM

I do.

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lol +1

i should have said that he strikes me as the type that would take well below market to join any good organization. us, chicago, vancouver, san jose, pittsburgh, etc.

#52 Datsyerberger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:00 PM

lol +1

i should have said that he strikes me as the type that would take well below market to join any good organization. us, chicago, vancouver, san jose, pittsburgh, etc.


I think he's a good fit in Nashville, personally.. Trotz system and his play were made for eachother.
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#53 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:03 PM

I think he's a good fit in Nashville, personally.. Trotz system and his play were made for eachother.

As much as I'd like to see him here, he seems to be comfortable with Weber in Nashville. He seems to get along with the coaching staff. I don't think he's going anywhere. If anything, he may take a cut to stay in Nashville.
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#54 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:11 PM

Suter will be back with nashville if he didn't have any issues with the coaching.


Ya I don't think he's going anywhere but damn he would be nice to have

Of the current roster and prospects expected to be with the team, we have 10 players signed beyond next year, for about $28M. We can probably figure a cap number around $62-65M, assuming the hard cap stays in the next CBA. We have great long-term flexibility, even if we get a couple higher priced guys this year.

We could be looking at something like this in two years (I didn't bother to look up the FAs, so I just filled in prices mostly. And I think my raises and FA prices are pretty liberal.):
FORWARDS
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Brooks Laich ($4.000m)
Johan Franzen ($3.954m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Helm ($2.500m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Abby ($1.750m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.250m)
/ Some Guy ($0.850m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kronner ($5.000m) / Brent Burns ($6.500m)
Stuie ($4.500m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,536,211; BONUSES: $260,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $463,789

So we can pick up Wis and Laich, who would both fit our needs nicely this coming season, AND still sign a premier defenseman next summer AND keep our key FAs AND add a couple decent role players, if not even more. And that's not even considering the ability to trade someone to free space.


I really like this roster


#55 Datsyerberger

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:13 PM

I really like this roster


I prefer one where we A: have someone other than Wiz, and B: Kindl has played well enough to be a full time D-man by that point.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 07 June 2011 - 11:13 PM.

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#56 kipwinger

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:38 AM

This is the last time that I'm going to attempt to explain reason to you...because it's looking more and more like an exercise in futility.

#1) I never at any point said that Jovanovski was a better player than Ehrhoff, Bieksa or Wiz. Please post the quote in full if you think I did. I did suggest that Jovanovski would be a better signing than those three because he would come cheaper, and on a one year deal - which would give us more money to pursue someone like Suter next off-season. I still stand by that ---> that him and his short contract would be our best option.

#2) Like I said before, I'm not getting into the money issue with you. It's obvious. It's simple. You don't get it. I don't care that you don't get it. And I don't feel like wasting half an hour explaining it to you.



Wow, your short term memory is a real doozie. Look, the posts are numbered so this should be easy. In the post numbered 21, you responded to a comment I made about why it was dumb to sign Jovanovski or Selanne because they were too old, by saying that we could either sign a "good" player, presumably Jovanovski or Selanne, or a "mediocre" player, presumably Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wizniewski considering I mentioned those players (by name, in the post that you were responding to) as being better options than Jovanovski. AGAIN, THE POSTS ARE NUMBERED. IT WAS YOUR POST. #21.



Also, in post #19 I asked the forum "if I was missing something" because I thought it was a dumb idea to sign Selanne and Jovanovski. You responded by saying that there were no better UFAs in this year's class to sign, and according to you, that's what I was missing. Now, you're saying that Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz are better. But in POST #19, when I said it was dumb to sign Jovanovski, you said it was smart to sign him because there were a lack of better FAs available this year. #19.


I was starting to get really irritated by this constant back and forth until I realized, while looking at other forums, that you're the same guy who was in favor of signing Joni Pitkanen about three days ago. You believed it was a good idea to sign him, long term, in spite of his "consistancy issue". After everybody on this sight told you what a terrible idea that was, you've moved on to Jovanovski (and very stubbornly, I might add). After reading this I realized, you have no idea what you're talking about. It is likely that as soon as someone (obviously not me) convinces you that Jovanovski is also very inconsistant, overpriced (he's not taking much of a cut, if any), fairly old, and dogged by injuries, you'll probably be on to the next guy. May I suggest Roman Hamerlik? Eventually, through a process of excruciating elimination, you'll finally realize that Wizniewski, Bieksa, or Erhoff are the best options, and all will be right with the world.

Sad as it is to say, the real loser here is me. I'm the dumb one. I can't believe I just spent this much time debating with someone who suggested signing Ed Jovanovski and Teemu Selanne. It should have been obvious you didn't have a clue the second you proposed that humdinger of an idea.

Edited by kipwinger, 08 June 2011 - 09:35 AM.

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#57 blueadams

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:10 PM

You seem to at least be getting a little closer to understanding reason...so I'll go ahead and respond again:

Wow, your short term memory is a real doozie. Look, the posts are numbered so this should be easy. In the post numbered 21, you responded to a comment I made about why it was dumb to sign Jovanovski or Selanne because they were too old, by saying that we could either sign a "good" player, presumably Jovanovski or Selanne, or a "mediocre" player, presumably Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wizniewski considering I mentioned those players (by name, in the post that you were responding to) as being better options than Jovanovski. AGAIN, THE POSTS ARE NUMBERED. IT WAS YOUR POST. #21.

...In that post, I wasn't even considering Bieksa or Ehrhoff in the long-term contract player category...because both will get so much money (like, 7m a season) that they won't even be options for us. If you read through the entire thread thoroughly, instead of jumping to argument-starting conclusions, you would have realized that. I was placing Wiz in that category, however, as his contract would be affordable. He was better than Jovanovski this last season, yes. But I still see him as a risky 'one-hit-wonder' option, and I wouldn't want to give him a long-term contract. Hence, the 'mediocre' label.

Also, in post #19 I asked the forum "if I was missing something" because I thought it was a dumb idea to sign Selanne and Jovanovski. You responded by saying that there were no better UFAs in this year's class to sign, and according to you, that's what I was missing. Now, you're saying that Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz are better. But in POST #19, when I said it was dumb to sign Jovanovski, you said it was smart to sign him because there were a lack of better FAs available this year. #19.

...Again, Bieksa and Ehrhoff aren't going to be options once they start getting 7m a season offers. And I've already said my piece with Wisniewski.

I was starting to get really irritated by this constant back and forth until I realized, while looking at other forums, that you're the same guy who was in favor of signing Joni Pitkanen about three days ago. You believed it was a good idea to sign him, long term, in spite of his "consistancy issue". After everybody on this sight told you what a terrible idea that was, you've moved on to Jovanovski (and very stubbornly, I might add). After reading this I realized, you have no idea what you're talking about. It is likely that as soon as someone (obviously not me) convinces you that Jovanovski is also very inconsistant, overpriced (he's not taking much of a cut, if any), fairly old, and dogged by injuries, you'll probably be on to the next guy. May I suggest Roman Hamerlik? Eventually, through a process of excruciating elimination, you'll finally realize that Wizniewski, Bieksa, or Erhoff are the best options, and all will be right with the world.

...Again, a lack of reading comprehension skills, and your rush to get into internet arguments is making you look foolish here. Go back. Read the post thoroughly. I belive I started off the post by admitting that "I haven't seen much of Carolina the last few seasons," said that I'd "read good things about Pitkanen," and asked the board "what they thought of him." I then learned a lot about him from people that had actually watched him play, and changed my mind. Seems like a pretty productive process to me. Jovanovski I have seen a lot of. And I do really like as a one-year signing.

Sad as it is to say, the real loser here is me. I'm the dumb one. I can't believe I just spent this much time debating with someone who suggested signing Ed Jovanovski and Teemu Selanne. It should have been obvious you didn't have a clue the second you proposed that humdinger of an idea.

...Don't argue with people that are smarter than you.


Edited by blueadams, 08 June 2011 - 12:12 PM.


#58 e_prime

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:18 PM

...Again, Bieksa and Ehrhoff aren't going to be options once they start getting 7m a season offers. And I've already said my piece with Wisniewski.


:o

Really, blue? 7 million. c'mon now. :rolleyes:
QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#59 kipwinger

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 01:01 PM

:o

Really, blue? 7 million. c'mon now. :rolleyes:



Wait, it gets better. After they sign with other teams for seven million each, Selanne will leave the team he wants to retire with, and Jovanovski will take a massive pay cut to leave a team and city that he's happy with, and then the Wings will sign them both and be back in the hunt. This is only logical after all. Thank god he's the smart one here (and clearly not prone to whimsically imagining outrageous salaries and FA destinations and acquisitions without any sort of historical precedent).

Edited by kipwinger, 08 June 2011 - 01:09 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#60 blueadams

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:42 PM

Wait, it gets better. After they sign with other teams for seven million each, Selanne will leave the team he wants to retire with, and Jovanovski will take a massive pay cut to leave a team and city that he's happy with, and then the Wings will sign them both and be back in the hunt. This is only logical after all. Thank god he's the smart one here (and clearly not prone to whimsically imagining outrageous salaries and FA destinations and acquisitions without any sort of historical precedent).


#1) Even if Jovanovski wants 5mil, we'll be able to give it to him, and it'll still be a good one year investment, with no long-term strings attatched. And there has been no lack of speculation in the media about him wanting to leave Pheonix to win a cup.

#2) I've maintained with each mentioning of Selanne that it'd be a long shot because he loves ANA, and has an outside chance of winning a cup there next season. It'd take a big salary, or Paul Kariya, to get him.

Nice baseless shot though :)


Like I said...don't argue with me.





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