10/11 Hockeyfights.com awards voting...

[WorkingOvertime 536]

how did Edmonton and NY finish in the standings last year? refresh my memory...

The team currently second in voting for the Best Enforcing Team is the Boston Bruins. They have a good model for enforcing. Thornton is their main enforcer, and he can also play, while Lucic, Horton, McQuaid, etc can hold their own against most MW's. I don't think there is evidence that enforcing well translates into team success or failure. I do believe that having an enforcer would allow players like Abdelkader to play tougher knowing someone has their back.

Can someone here who is against McCormick/Konopka/Prust-type enforcers explain to me how their addition to the team as a replacement for Miller would hurt the Wings in 2011-2012 (holding all other roster changes equal)?

[Shaman 713]

The team currently second in voting for the Best Enforcing Team is the Boston Bruins. They have a good model for enforcing. Thornton is their main enforcer, and he can also play, while Lucic, Horton, McQuaid, etc can hold their own against most MW's. I don't think there is evidence that enforcing well translates into team success or failure. I do believe that having an enforcer would allow players like Abdelkader to play tougher knowing someone has their back.

Can someone here who is against McCormick/Konopka/Prust-type enforcers explain to me how their addition to the team as a replacement for Miller would hurt the Wings in 2011-2012 (holding all other roster changes equal)?

The Eastern Conference isn't real hockey.

That is all.

Edit:

The reason why I wouldn't want one of those players can be stated in one stat: Detroit - 81.7% PK. Until the Wings fix their PK there is 0 reason to bring a guy who spends 300 minutes in the box. Drew Miller may not be a great offensive talent, but he gives 100% and brings 20 points, he is very disciplined (only 10 PIM in 66 games), and he does it all cheaply. Why anyone would want to bring in a penalty machine to the Wings who are in the bottom half in PK is beyond me.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Shaman464

[stevkrause 1,247]

The team currently second in voting for the Best Enforcing Team is the Boston Bruins. They have a good model for enforcing. Thornton is their main enforcer, and he can also play, while Lucic, Horton, McQuaid, etc can hold their own against most MW's. I don't think there is evidence that enforcing well translates into team success or failure. I do believe that having an enforcer would allow players like Abdelkader to play tougher knowing someone has their back.

Can someone here who is against McCormick/Konopka/Prust-type enforcers explain to me how their addition to the team as a replacement for Miller would hurt the Wings in 2011-2012 (holding all other roster changes equal)?

I'm not sure why this reply was to my post, unless it was just out of convenience... I've stated since day one that a guy like McCormick is what is needed today and the Wings could use him... I just hate the enforcer debate, because pure enforcers are useless in todays game...

[e_prime 1,936]

The Eastern Conference isn't real hockey.

That is all.

Hmmm. Succinct, but I don't think that really answers the question.

[Shaman 713]

Hmmm. Succinct, but I don't think that really answers the question.

I added to it, but it was mostly a joke based upon the idea that Western Conference is the all around better conference (which is true). But again, the Wings in the last 5 years have 1 cup, 2 runs very deep beyond that, and 2 more making it into the second round. Now the problem that the Wings had in the second round that killed them the most was taking stupid penalties late in games. Second to that was that there was very little secondary scoring. How does bringing an enforcer address either of those problems?

[e_prime 1,936]

I added to it, but it was mostly a joke based upon the idea that Western Conference is the all around better conference (which is true). But again, the Wings in the last 5 years have 1 cup, 2 runs very deep beyond that, and 2 more making it into the second round. Now the problem that the Wings had in the second round that killed them the most was taking stupid penalties late in games. Second to that was that there was very little secondary scoring. How does bringing an enforcer address either of those problems?

You get a plus 1 for that. I'm all for taking the shots where they're available.

HOWEVER, and I'm not going to copy and paste stat lines for you, but neither Prust nor McCormick were undisciplined during the playoffs (however short their runs may have been.)

Also they're not to blame for any stupid penalties taken while the Wings were playing.

...but besides fighting/grit both of them have comparable offensive numbers to Miller in the regular season, which I believe is what most of us in this thread are looking for. A regular season guy, not a guy that's going to upgrade our secondary scoring in the playoffs. (Not that I disagree that it needs to be addressed.)

Edited June 8, 2011 by e_prime

[WorkingOvertime 536]

The Eastern Conference isn't real hockey.

That is all.

Edit:

The reason why I wouldn't want one of those players can be stated in one stat: Detroit - 81.7% PK. Until the Wings fix their PK there is 0 reason to bring a guy who spends 300 minutes in the box. Drew Miller may not be a great offensive talent, but he gives 100% and brings 20 points, he is very disciplined (only 10 PIM in 66 games), and he does it all cheaply. Why anyone would want to bring in a penalty machine to the Wings who are in the bottom half in PK is beyond me.

Most of those PIMS are from fighting or (undeserved IMO) misconducts. Konopka didn't have 300 PIMs composed of minors. Also, that does not address McCormick. Konopka and McCormick are both great PKers as well, so they wouldn't hurt the team in that regard. If anything your statistic favors these players because they can PK well.

I'm not sure why this reply was to my post, unless it was just out of convenience... I've stated since day one that a guy like McCormick is what is needed today and the Wings could use him... I just hate the enforcer debate, because pure enforcers are useless in todays game...

More in response to the posters that haven't been to the website in the OP to looks at the other teams who are nominated for best enforcing team than you specifically. The Pens and Bruins are both in running for this award.

[stevkrause 1,247]

More in response to the posters that haven't been to the website in the OP to looks at the other teams who are nominated for best enforcing team than you specifically. The Pens and Bruins are both in running for this award.

Fair enough

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

I'm not sure why this reply was to my post, unless it was just out of convenience... I've stated since day one that a guy like McCormick is what is needed today and the Wings could use him... I just hate the enforcer debate, because pure enforcers are useless in todays game...

and this is why "enforcers" on the wings in recent years have largely been part-time players with two-way contracts. The problem then becomes finding someone who is willing to be only a part-time NHL'er. That's rather hard to find at the NHL level, and so we see players come in and play for a year than move on (be it to retire, or to another team for full time play).

[stevkrause 1,247]

and this is why "enforcers" on the wings in recent years have largely been part-time players with two-way contracts. The problem then becomes finding someone who is willing to be only a part-time NHL'er. That's rather hard to find at the NHL level, and so we see players come in and play for a year than move on (be it to retire, or to another team for full time play).

I'd really like to see Kenny take a run at McCormick, he adds that element, but can kill penalties and give you defensively solid minutes as well, plus, he doesn't take too many bad penalties (loses his cool a little, but I think that can be coached) and is a damn good light-heavyweight. He'd be an everyday player that can still fill multiple roles, including the much coveted-by-many "tough guy" role for this team...

[newfy 695]

To continue in this vain:

How many of the recent cups (in the last ten years) have come without Hasek on the team? Zero, So they cant win without great goaltending

How many cups have the Wings won when they have had a GF-GA differential under +50? Zero, so when they score more goals than they allow they win

How many cups have the Wings won recently without McCarty on the team? Zero, so without a tough player on the bottom lines they cannot win

How many cups have the Wings won recently without Maltby on the team? Zero, so without an agitator to get under top players skin and playing physical, they cannot win

How many cups have the Wings won since Pronger moved to the eastern conference? Zero

How many cups have the Wings won since the Coyotes started to play good hockey consistently? Zero, so once the yotes got better, Doan physically damaged the wings each playoffs and they were left worse for wear in later rounds

How many cups have the wings won recently when they have not played exactly 6 games in the first round? Zero

Not to teach anyone here any science, but theres an old saying: "Correlation does not imply causation"

A lot of your points make sense actually.

The wings need to toughen up on the bottom lines. I find it hilarious that some people dont realize that when they have more balance and have their more physical teams, they are better off. 08 had Drake, Mac, Downey (all season), Helm playing a small role so all he did was run guys, Kronwall on his A game taking guys heads off and Stuart being more physical as well.

It isnt about getting an enforcer, its about getting tougher players who can throw some big hits and wear other teams down. Usually players like this are the type who will drop the gloves as well so the term enforcer gets tossed aruond for them.

Mccormick, Konopka, Prust etc are role players who also fill the role of enforcer as well as PK, hit etc. The wings need some players like this.

The wings are in the bottom half on the PK, and Drew Miller isnt even their top PK guy, so why does his penalty killing make him a shoe in for this team?

People here think the wings can just win it on skill, well sorry to break it to you but with Bert, Homer etc in their top 6, they plain and simple cant do that anymore. They need to be able to wear teams down instead of just getting worn down all the time.

The 08 team was tough and could wear teams down, the teams of recent years couldnt

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Too much hypocrisy around here.

When we carried Downey, May or McCarty during the last few seasons, I don't remember too many posters here bitching about how useless those players were and how they were just taking up roster spots. Now everyone seems to think an enforcer has no business on this roster unless he can also score 20 points or so.

I'm confident that if Holland and company ever changed their long-term philosophy on this (which they never will), peeople here would have a totally different outlook on the "enforcer" role in hockey and whether it would be a good fit on this team.

[e_prime 1,936]

A lot of your points make sense actually.

The wings need to toughen up on the bottom lines. I find it hilarious that some people dont realize that when they have more balance and have their more physical teams, they are better off. 08 had Drake, Mac, Downey (all season), Helm playing a small role so all he did was run guys, Kronwall on his A game taking guys heads off and Stuart being more physical as well.

It isnt about getting an enforcer, its about getting tougher players who can throw some big hits and wear other teams down. Usually players like this are the type who will drop the gloves as well so the term enforcer gets tossed aruond for them.

Mccormick, Konopka, Prust etc are role players who also fill the role of enforcer as well as PK, hit etc. The wings need some players like this.

The wings are in the bottom half on the PK, and Drew Miller isnt even their top PK guy, so why does his penalty killing make him a shoe in for this team?

People here think the wings can just win it on skill, well sorry to break it to you but with Bert, Homer etc in their top 6, they plain and simple cant do that anymore. They need to be able to wear teams down instead of just getting worn down all the time.

The 08 team was tough and could wear teams down, the teams of recent years couldnt

The problem is that most "anti-enforcers" who want "grit" don't see those as good points for replacing a player like Miller. (Who I'm certainly not going to scoff at for his abilities.) I get it. They aren't willing to see how Prust, Konopka, and McCormick fit in because they view them as poor penalty takers, savages, whatever... without viewing their upside...

Which I just don't get. Seriously. (With the exception of Konopka) McCormick and Prust average less than than a minor penalty per game.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

The problem is that most "anti-enforcers" who want "grit" don't see those as good points for replacing a player like Miller. (Who I'm certainly not going to scoff at for his abilities.) I get it. They aren't willing to see how Prust, Konopka, and McCormick fit in because they view them as poor penalty takers, savages, whatever... without viewing their upside...

Which I just don't get. Seriously. (With the exception of Konopka) McCormick and Prust average less than than a minor penalty per game.

Abby, Salei and Bertuzzi probably take more dumb penalties than any of those players.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Too much hypocrisy around here.

When we carried Downey, May or McCarty during the last few seasons, I don't remember too many posters here bitching about how useless those players were and how they were just taking up roster spots. Now everyone seems to think an enforcer has no business on this roster unless he can also score 20 points or so.

I'm confident that if Holland and company ever changed their long-term philosophy on this (which they never will), peeople here would have a totally different outlook on the "enforcer" role in hockey and whether it would be a good fit on this team.

Downey was the only one of those 3 that was one dimensional and all 3 were on 2-way deals, so its a moot point... its not a cap risk, or roster spot sucker when its a 2 way deal, hell, you convince a useless pylon like McGratton to take a 2 way deal and I'll be all for him being here at league min and occassionally dressed...

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Downey was the only one of those 3 that was one dimensional and all 3 were on 2-way deals, so its a moot point... its not a cap risk, or roster spot sucker when its a 2 way deal, hell, you convince a useless pylon like McGratton to take a 2 way deal and I'll be all for him being here at league min and occassionally dressed...

Who said we should sign an enforcer to a 6 year contract worth several million?

They're generally guys who don't get paid much or sign long-term.

[e_prime 1,936]

Abby, Salei and Bertuzzi probably take more dumb penalties than any of those players.

You don't say! "Mr. Highstick", "Mr. Indifferent", and "Mr. Can't Keep Both Hands on the Stick"?

[newfy 695]

Downey was the only one of those 3 that was one dimensional and all 3 were on 2-way deals, so its a moot point... its not a cap risk, or roster spot sucker when its a 2 way deal, hell, you convince a useless pylon like McGratton to take a 2 way deal and I'll be all for him being here at league min and occassionally dressed...

Well at that stage in May's career, he was just there to fight, if you dont call that one dimensional than I dont know what problem you have with the wings signing an enforcer?

Seriously I dont want a one dimensional guy, I want a Mccormick but if you say you dont want a 1 dimensinoal guy than say May wasnt 1.. I just dont see why you dont have a problem with anyone coming here. May couldnt do anything really, he could take a pass and give one but wasn't quick and was a decent fighter.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

how did Edmonton and NY finish in the standings last year? refresh my memory...

How many cups did the Oilers win when they had Semenko?

Obviously there are other components that make teams successful and unsuccessful then just enforcers

how did Edmonton and NY finish in the standings last year? refresh my memory...

How many cups did the Oilers win when they had Semenko?

Obviously there are other components that make teams successful and unsuccessful then just enforcers