109 replies to this topic

[Drake_Marcus]

Just because I don't support talking out of one's ass:

Average attendances

Pre lockout (starting 00-01)

TBL: 16,248
ANA: 13,169

Post lockout

TBL: 18,057
ANA: 15,874

Total:

TBL: 17,328
ANA: 14,973

The Ducks only finished ahead of the Bolts once in this entire stretch, 2 years after their cup win (08-09), when TBL was in their 4th season of abysmal management. TBL finished 21, Ducks 17th.

In fact, here's the record of those 10 years by attendance rank (starting with 00-01, descending to 10-11):

TBL--ANA

25th--28th
20th--30th
16th--26th
12th*--24th
2nd---24th
3rd---20th*
8th---15th+
21st--17th
21st--24th
18th--26th

*=cup year, +=post-cup year (TBL's post cup year was during the lockout)

Speak with knowledge, my friends.

I'll side step the fact that you've approached this with the grace and tact of a 15 year old with Asperger Syndrome. (And we can ignore the fact that "knowledge" isn't the same thing as the ability to type a word into google and hit enter)

And what about on-ice success and management? Tampa Bay lags behind Anaheim there. Does everyone forget the ownership BS that's gone on in TB over the last decade?

[Doc Holliday]

I'll side step the fact that you've approached this with the grace and tact of a 15 year old with Asperger Syndrome. (And we can ignore the fact that "knowledge" isn't the same thing as the ability to type a word into google and hit enter)

And what about on-ice success and management? Tampa Bay lags behind Anaheim there. Does everyone forget the ownership BS that's gone on in TB over the last decade?

He addressed that.

The TBL had a good run of success from the early 00s until the lockout, and have picked up again this last season. Lets say 4-5 years.

The Ducks had an amazing run with Giggy pre lockout. Aside from that, 3 years or so post lockout. Again, let's say 4-5 years.

[Datsyerberger]

I'll side step the fact that you've approached this with the grace and tact of a 15 year old with Asperger Syndrome.

24 year old with Asperger's Syndrome. Close enough. f*** tact, give me 'fact'.

(And we can ignore the fact that "knowledge" isn't the same thing as the ability to type a word into google and hit enter)

Already had a good idea of the attendance figures, hence my estimation in the 1st post. 2nd post I used a bookmarked site to verify my numbers (most of which I keep track of fairly well mentally, go go gadget Aspergers). Guess I'm used to slapping people around with figures when they make (poor) assumptions.

And what about on-ice success and management? Tampa Bay lags behind Anaheim there. Does everyone forget the ownership BS that's gone on in TB over the last decade?

He addressed that.

Indeed. I acknowledged that Anaheim has had more stable ownership. On-ice product has been roughly equal in a 10 year span. Off-ice product has favored Tampa Bay (though they're also in a better market). They also have much less of an identity crisis.

[NeverForgetMac25]

It was over 1.5 decades ago by this point... they haven't cared about that team down there since the early to mid 90's...

It's not hard to believe that it MIGHT generate a glimmer of a spark, but just like clicking two rocks together in the middle of a downpour may generate a spark, that spark is short lived and you'll never start a fire... it'd be a sideshow if anything...

Jesus sk, the way you're arguing you'd think I was stating that this is going to propel the Panthers into being the number 1 franchise in all of sports. For the love of God, that's not what I said/meant. Simply put, if the franchise does do something incredibly new and bold, it may create a spark which is all I've said all along. Not move mountains, create a spark.

[Datsyerberger]

On a hunch, I also decided to compare the Cats' attendance to the Ducks over the last 10 years:

Pre lockout

Florida: 15,529
Anaheim: 13,619

Post lockout:

Florida: 15,545
Anaheim: 15,874

Total:

Florida: 15,539
Anaheim: 14,973


Two things to keep in mind:

1. Attendance isn't end-all be-all; Florida has had their tickets on the cheap during most of that time and such is reflected in their lower revenue and franchise value.
2. Ducks won a cup during that period, whilst Florida has been in a record setting playoff drought.

All things considered, I think the Florida management has done a fantastic job of keeping a team with abysmal on-ice product afloat. This may also be due to a better market than Anaheim. Both Tampa area (particularly southawrds) and southeast Florida are excellent markets with oodles of snowbirds, descendants of snowbirds, and northeast/midwest transplants (as well as their families). Hell, I'm one of them. My father is from Detroit. I was born/raised in Northwest Florida. My (deceased) grandfather is from Michigan and retired/died in southwest Florida. His wife (my natural grandmother died young), also deceased now, was Canadian. After is death she was a long-time snowbird, with dual residency in Ontario and Bradenton, FL for something like 15-20 years before she died. I can assure you this story is very much echoed in the Florida peninsula, and parts of NW Florida as well (due to very heavy military presence for the latter, and partly the beaches).

Edited by Datsyerberger, 09 June 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[GMRwings1983]

Carolina's "rose" logo looks like crap and they wear the same colors as about half the teams in the league. If any team needs a change from a "looks" standpoint, it's them.

Oh and I also don't think Florida is a great market for hockey, no matter what changes they make. At this point, relocation is the best option for the NHL with that franchise. I doubt anyone in Miami doesn't go to games because the logo and jersey suck.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 09 June 2011 - 06:33 PM.

[allyourphil]

IDK guys(e2), I dont think this rumor(e4) is very credible until Eklund(e1) blogs about it (e3)

[Drake_Marcus]

Well according to Icethetics one Coyotes prospective owner promised to rename the Coyotes the Arizona Coyotes. Not terribly exciting but something... Here's what they're saying about Reebok's jersey presales info for Western teams next season:

http://www.icethetic...watch-2011.html

[cusimano_brothers]

...Arizona Coyotes...

A regional feel, trying to get the entire state involved? Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Hockey13Playa]

Well according to Icethetics one Coyotes prospective owner promised to rename the Coyotes the Arizona Coyotes. Not terribly exciting but something... Here's what they're saying about Reebok's jersey presales info for Western teams next season:

http://www.icethetic...watch-2011.html

A regional feel, trying to get the entire state involved? Desperate times call for desperate measures.

The reason I don't see this being the change is because from the original post it says something that never has been done before. I believe that this has been...

[LeftWinger]

If it is a team named after a sponsor I'm going to be PISSED!!!!

YA! The Winn-Dixie Panthers! The NASCAR Hurricanes!

Problem is they don't even play in Phoenix, they play in Glendale. I know if the sale went through, they would have been the Glendale Coyotes. Maybe they want something completely new.

The Coyotes name has been through the ringer the past couple years and the franchise is not respected.

Ya! The Arizona Plateau!

It wouldn't... they need to move, hockey in Miami is about as bad of an idea as hockey in Arizona was... I can appreciate the southern expansion idea, but those were horrible ideas from day one and to be honest, Florida is probably a worse idea than Phoenix was...

they have hockey in Miami? The Panthers play outside of the Sawgrass Mills Mall in Sunrise which is north west of Fort Lauderdale....I get what you're saying, just bustin your chops a lil!

[LeftWinger]

It gonna be the Detroit Red Wings! They are gonna move to the Eastern Conference and will be re-branded Eastern Conference Champions instead of Western Conference Champions on their way to another Stanley Cup Championship! Sheesh guys!

[Konnan511]

[numbers n' stuff]

I +1'd you because of the work you put into it, but it's better to look at percentage of tickets sold than actual attendance. You could have an area with 1 million people and an arena that only fits 15,000 or an area with 10mil with an arena that seats 18000, but the 18000 seater only has 16000 average attendance while the 15,000 is sold out every night.

[Never_Retire_Steve]

Sounds interesting, but probably not true

[sputman]

Predators is one of the worst team names of all time. Please change it.

+1

because i completely disagree with this post and think it's ridiculous that somebody gave it a negative because they disagree with it as well. this is why i hate the negative option. obviously there are worst team names "of all time."

anyways, so southern nhl team?



so i guess that would include los angeles, anaheim, phoenix, dallas, nashville, carolina, tampa bay, and the panthers. funny i always thought of san jose as being a southern nhl team, though in that case i guess you'd have to include colorado and st. louis.

los angeles - they've changed colors a few times, but with the gretzky influence i can't see them ever being anything other than the "kings."

anaheim - have already shed the "mighty" nonsense. changed logos many times. successful franchise, can't see why they'd keep changing at this point.

phoenix - they've already successfully rebranded, cosmetically at least. they've not been that bad as a franchise so i don't see why an upheaval is necessary. i can see how with the talk the last few years of them relocating they'd want to solidify the team as something more substantial, so the "arizona coyotes" doesn't seem too far fetched.

dallas - even though they haven't been that successful the last few years, i can't imagine they'd change much with their history of winning.

nashville - silly, bucktoothed logo - though i personally like their colors (especially the yellow ones, i can't explain it). they've got a decent fan-base i can't imagine a complete rebranding would create a positive response. maybe a different logo with some color variations. but i think the name stays, for bette or worse.

carolina - i moved down to the chapel hill area in 2004 and have seen many hurricane games. the fan-base is actually quite strong and intelligent. a good deal of the fans are old, relocated "whale" fans, or relocated northerners who love to watch hockey and know the game well. and there are some locals who have caught on as well. they've won a cup, their merch sells, they aren't going to change anything.

tampa bay - does yzerman pull a gretzky and give the lightning a more polished, professional brand? personally, i've always disliked the lightning's colors and logo. but, they've won with it. i don't think it's part of stevie's personality to shake things up.

panthers - if the rumor is true, it's the panthers.

[Datsyerberger]

I +1'd you because of the work you put into it, but it's better to look at percentage of tickets sold than actual attendance. You could have an area with 1 million people and an arena that only fits 15,000 or an area with 10mil with an arena that seats 18000, but the 18000 seater only has 16000 average attendance while the 15,000 is sold out every night.

I agree with you 100% and have actually looked into those numbers before (And regarding the teams discussed, it doesn't change the ratios much). I think it also says something about the expected potential of a market when an arena is built to a certain capacity.

As an example of such, 2 years after the Bolts won the cup (damned lockout), they were 2nd in overall league attendance, then dropped just a touch the next year, and were still 8th 3 years later (when the team had already been sucking horribly and the owners were blowing it up). Meanwhile, the Ducks weren't running even close to max attendance their 2 years after the cup (their top was 2 years later, 15th in the league), and within 3 years they had dropped back down to the 20s.

What's ultimately more important than any of the above is ticket revenue (which factors tickets sold + ticket pricing, the best measure of demand), but since Drake specifically brought up the Ducks attendance being way better than the Bolts and he was so utterly wrong about such, I felt it needed addressing. I don't think people will ever truly respect the expansion markets that are actually good if people operate under assumption all the time (as was clearly the case there).

[kylee]

Phoenix Mirages

[Dimaline312000]

Yeah Florida was my first thought too. Could be just the thing a team needs to get on a winning path.

[Hockeytown0001]

Pittsburgh Crosbys

[55fan]

The Florida Panthers will become known as the Miami Heat. It will bring in more fans due to name recognition, and they can just use the same players since neither team can play hockey.